How To Stop Pulling On The Lead.

[mace]

Posted by Snoopy21 I have done 3 years of obedience training, and sought the assistance of 2 other trainers. It has helped me immensely and our leash walking is a million times better than it was.

Not directed at yourself Snoopy, but all I can say to that is wow! The quality of obedience training in this country must be extraordinary in its ineptness if can take 3 years and 2 trainers to train a dog to walk to heel without pulling or lunging. Just wow!

How many countries have you trained dogs in, itsadogslife?

I saw Willow myself for a few classes, after she had already learned some bad habits and I've got to say, Snoopy21 has done a really good job with her. Willow is a strong dog, a Dane x Lab from memory, so she had learned how to use her size advantage.

A more experienced handler wouldn't have made as many mistakes along the way, good for them, but not everyone comes experienced and not everyone has a biddable dog they can easily control. I've worked with a good variety of dogs now, and while the principles stay the same, no two dogs are the same either genetically, or in their learning history.

Why would you not use a prong collar on Willow out of interest?

[Snoopy21]

I have used a prong on Willow. Using the prong in conjunction with a training program - we had some good results. I did not feel very confident with using the prong, and being an inexperienced trainer, found using a device with a written program a challenge. I sought further help because of this and found an alternative that suited me better and that I could feel more confident about. In my location there is not a huge choice of trainers, most (all?) of whom would not support the use of a prong making it hard to get local help with that program. Aidan was kind enough to invite us to his classes and things are much improved. I am much more confident and Willow is getting the exercise and stimulation she needs.

[Nekhbet]

I did not feel very confident with using the prong, and being an inexperienced trainer, found using a device with a written program a challenge.

And I don't think it was a fair situation to put you in either. If training could be done simply through a manual then dog clubs and trainers would be universaly redundant - and I would never send a prong to an owner I had not had at least one session with beforehand and seen the dog/owners skill level.

If it works for you and you can walk the dog without falling over then so be it, you use what you can.

[lovemesideways]

Posted by Snoopy21 I have done 3 years of obedience training, and sought the assistance of 2 other trainers. It has helped me immensely and our leash walking is a million times better than it was.

Not directed at yourself Snoopy, but all I can say to that is wow! The quality of obedience training in this country must be extraordinary in its ineptness if can take 3 years and 2 trainers to train a dog to walk to heel without pulling or lunging. Just wow!

How many countries have you trained dogs in, itsadogslife?

I saw Willow myself for a few classes, after she had already learned some bad habits and I've got to say, Snoopy21 has done a really good job with her. Willow is a strong dog, a Dane x Lab from memory, so she had learned how to use her size advantage.

A more experienced handler wouldn't have made as many mistakes along the way, good for them, but not everyone comes experienced and not everyone has a biddable dog they can easily control. I've worked with a good variety of dogs now, and while the principles stay the same, no two dogs are the same either genetically, or in their learning history.

+2!

If I had tried to train my GSD with the same basic training that was incredibly successful with my Lab, I would have a out of control/border line dangerous dog by now! Some dogs are just more difficult to train, whether it be the tool or the trainer using it, there's no simple black and white answer. A strong, driven dog with a history of success at pulling their owner around, plus a owner who is non-confrontational can be a difficult combo! That why we're lucky to have so many different tools and training methods to our advantage !

[mace]

I have used a prong on Willow. Using the prong in conjunction with a training program - we had some good results. I did not feel very confident with using the prong, and being an inexperienced trainer, found using a device with a written program a challenge. I sought further help because of this and found an alternative that suited me better and that I could feel more confident about. In my location there is not a huge choice of trainers, most (all?) of whom would not support the use of a prong making it hard to get local help with that program. Aidan was kind enough to invite us to his classes and things are much improved. I am much more confident and Willow is getting the exercise and stimulation she needs.

Isn't Aidan a K9Pro outlet in Tassie, that's why I asked the question? I have seen some excellent results Steve Courtney has produced taking management tools to the next level using a prong to train desired leash behaviour with dogs formally on harnesses and head collars?

[megan_]

Nope - Steve is the only K9Pro trainer (with Vickie doing agility in Sydney) I believe.

[Nekhbet]

No K9 Pro has a list of recommended trainers, it's not a franchise.

[mace]

Posted by Snoopy21 I have done 3 years of obedience training, and sought the assistance of 2 other trainers. It has helped me immensely and our leash walking is a million times better than it was.

Not directed at yourself Snoopy, but all I can say to that is wow! The quality of obedience training in this country must be extraordinary in its ineptness if can take 3 years and 2 trainers to train a dog to walk to heel without pulling or lunging. Just wow!

How many countries have you trained dogs in, itsadogslife?

I saw Willow myself for a few classes, after she had already learned some bad habits and I've got to say, Snoopy21 has done a really good job with her. Willow is a strong dog, a Dane x Lab from memory, so she had learned how to use her size advantage.

A more experienced handler wouldn't have made as many mistakes along the way, good for them, but not everyone comes experienced and not everyone has a biddable dog they can easily control. I've worked with a good variety of dogs now, and while the principles stay the same, no two dogs are the same either genetically, or in their learning history.

+2!

If I had tried to train my GSD with the same basic training that was incredibly successful with my Lab, I would have a out of control/border line dangerous dog by now! Some dogs are just more difficult to train, whether it be the tool or the trainer using it, there's no simple black and white answer. A strong, driven dog with a history of success at pulling their owner around, plus a owner who is non-confrontational can be a difficult combo! That why we're lucky to have so many different tools and training methods to our advantage !

Personally, I think there is too much pussy footing around with people these days. When I leaned to train, you did as you were told, you didn't tell the trainer that you didn't like for example check chains for the trainer to produced a tool you may like better, the trainer assessed your dog and told "you" what tools to use and then taught "you" how to use them being the reason you hired a trainer to learn how to train your dog? Good check chain work isn't easy to learn and get the timing right and probably most people struggled with it initially but the trainer worked on that with you until you got it right and not too many people if any that I can recall couldn't do get it right, some took a bit longer, but most mastered it easily enough after a few sessions with the trainer.

I was one of those people who messed up and lacked confidence with the check chain intially and I told my trainer exactly that, but he didn't whip out a different tool, he taught me confidence to use the tool correctly and I became good at it with great confidence, but nowdays, someone messes up intially or doesn't like a particular tool, the trainer just gives in and produces something else, not specifically to best suit the dog's behaviour, but to suit the dog's owner. I think in many cases, some trainers are too quick fire to pull out the wrong tool for the dog to suit the owner's whim where IMHO more work should be focused on the owner to teach the owner how to use the right tool for their dog.

[Steve K9Pro]

Mace

Isn't Aidan a K9Pro outlet in Tassie, that's why I asked the question? I have seen some excellent results Steve Courtney has produced taking management tools to the next level using a prong to train desired leash behaviour with dogs formally on harnesses and head collars?

K9: Thanks for the kind words Mace, Aidan isn't a K9 Pro outlet, he is on our recommended list though. We don't have any other outlets bar the one in Kurrajong NSW.

[mace]

Mace

Isn't Aidan a K9Pro outlet in Tassie, that's why I asked the question? I have seen some excellent results Steve Courtney has produced taking management tools to the next level using a prong to train desired leash behaviour with dogs formally on harnesses and head collars?

K9: Thanks for the kind words Mace, Aidan isn't a K9 Pro outlet, he is on our recommended list though. We don't have any other outlets bar the one in Kurrajong NSW.

Thank's for the clarification Steve

I would naturally assume with recommended lists be it dog trainers to insurance company panel beaters, that those recommended would follow and share particular protocols and concepts to be on that list, in other words, I would naturally assume that the trainers on you list Steve would use and support your methods and tools effectively. I wouldn't expect for example, Aidan being on your recommended list to tell me he didn't support the use of prong collars or wasn't experienced in using them when you do for example?

[Steve K9Pro]

Mace:

I would naturally assume with recommended lists be it dog trainers to insurance company panel beaters, that those recommended would follow and share particular protocols and concepts to be on that list, in other words, I would naturally assume that the trainers on you list Steve would use and support your methods and tools effectively. I wouldn't expect for example, Aidan being on your recommended list to tell me he didn't support the use of prong collars or wasn't experienced in using them when you do for example?

K9: I see what you mean, but using prong collars isn't my policy, I just will use them if need be. I have a list of recommended trainers because we get emails from people in various states in need of help, having someone we can point them too is helpful for them. It isn't much more than that

The criteria is, if I know the person, or respect their work, or have worked with them, or have seen the dogs they have worked with and thought they were good at their job, they can be listed. There is no charge for us to list them on our site nor do we get anything from it other than satisfaction of helping someone out of our reach.

If it started to produce problems, well I guess would have to reconsider it and maybe set some guidelines, but so far all I have heard are happy people when they have chosen someone from the list we have.

[mace]

Mace:

I would naturally assume with recommended lists be it dog trainers to insurance company panel beaters, that those recommended would follow and share particular protocols and concepts to be on that list, in other words, I would naturally assume that the trainers on you list Steve would use and support your methods and tools effectively. I wouldn't expect for example, Aidan being on your recommended list to tell me he didn't support the use of prong collars or wasn't experienced in using them when you do for example?

K9: I see what you mean, but using prong collars isn't my policy, I just will use them if need be. I have a list of recommended trainers because we get emails from people in various states in need of help, having someone we can point them too is helpful for them. It isn't much more than that

The criteria is, if I know the person, or respect their work, or have worked with them, or have seen the dogs they have worked with and thought they were good at their job, they can be listed. There is no charge for us to list them on our site nor do we get anything from it other than satisfaction of helping someone out of our reach.

If it started to produce problems, well I guess would have to reconsider it and maybe set some guidelines, but so far all I have heard are happy people when they have chosen someone from the list we have.

That's fine Steve thanks

I know that you use a wide range of tools but there are also many trainers who won't use certain tools like the prong even when it may be the best tool for a particular dog. I have actually seen the results after a couple of people have ended up using your prong program with difficult dogs that other methods and tools with other trainers have failed and yes, I was impressed at the behavioual difference from your prong program assisting these dogs.

I am not singling out Aidan other than his name came up in this thread having worked with a particular dog mentioned, but if I was in another state from NSW and couldn't make a booking with you personally for hands on prong collar training tuition, I would choose someone off your recommended list, prong in hand and expect they would teach me how to use it? I wouldn't expect one of your recommended trainers not to provide prong tuition or refuse to use one is what I am referring to, but thanks anyway for the explanation

[Kavik]

Personally, I think there is too much pussy footing around with people these days. When I leaned to train, you did as you were told, you didn't tell the trainer that you didn't like for example check chains for the trainer to produced a tool you may like better, the trainer assessed your dog and told "you" what tools to use and then taught "you" how to use them being the reason you hired a trainer to learn how to train your dog? Good check chain work isn't easy to learn and get the timing right and probably most people struggled with it initially but the trainer worked on that with you until you got it right and not too many people if any that I can recall couldn't do get it right, some took a bit longer, but most mastered it easily enough after a few sessions with the trainer.

I was one of those people who messed up and lacked confidence with the check chain intially and I told my trainer exactly that, but he didn't whip out a different tool, he taught me confidence to use the tool correctly and I became good at it with great confidence, but nowdays, someone messes up intially or doesn't like a particular tool, the trainer just gives in and produces something else, not specifically to best suit the dog's behaviour, but to suit the dog's owner. I think in many cases, some trainers are too quick fire to pull out the wrong tool for the dog to suit the owner's whim where IMHO more work should be focused on the owner to teach the owner how to use the right tool for their dog.

I like that there is a variety of methods and tools for training your dog. It means that with research you can find a trainer that suits you and your dog, your training methodology/preference and if you wish to compete, the sport you are interested in. There are many ways to train every behaviour, even a simple sit.

[mace]

Personally, I think there is too much pussy footing around with people these days. When I leaned to train, you did as you were told, you didn't tell the trainer that you didn't like for example check chains for the trainer to produced a tool you may like better, the trainer assessed your dog and told "you" what tools to use and then taught "you" how to use them being the reason you hired a trainer to learn how to train your dog? Good check chain work isn't easy to learn and get the timing right and probably most people struggled with it initially but the trainer worked on that with you until you got it right and not too many people if any that I can recall couldn't do get it right, some took a bit longer, but most mastered it easily enough after a few sessions with the trainer.

I was one of those people who messed up and lacked confidence with the check chain intially and I told my trainer exactly that, but he didn't whip out a different tool, he taught me confidence to use the tool correctly and I became good at it with great confidence, but nowdays, someone messes up intially or doesn't like a particular tool, the trainer just gives in and produces something else, not specifically to best suit the dog's behaviour, but to suit the dog's owner. I think in many cases, some trainers are too quick fire to pull out the wrong tool for the dog to suit the owner's whim where IMHO more work should be focused on the owner to teach the owner how to use the right tool for their dog.

I like that there is a variety of methods and tools for training your dog. It means that with research you can find a trainer that suits you and your dog, your training methodology/preference and if you wish to compete, the sport you are interested in. There are many ways to train every behaviour, even a simple sit.

Yes, I do too, things are much more advanced than the choke chain days, but I have found many people like to argue with trainers a lot more than they used to about tools and methods, one recently came up with a trainer suggesting an Ecollar for this particular dog and the owner refused to consider one leaving the trainer to arrange something less effective when the Ecollar would have been the ultimate in what needed to be addressed. Just thinking back when I began, you didn't argue with the trainer, you shut up listended intently and did what you were told, I guess it's culture evolution also?

[Kavik]

i don't see anything wrong with not wanting to use a particular tool. Ecollars and prongs are both tools which are controversial, with a lot of emotion on both sides, and are not able to be used everywhere/in all circumstances. I think it is important to understand how they all work and why, education is most important, but I also think you should then be allowed to decide that it isn't the right tool for you, or that you don't feel comfortable using it (or conversely that you should be able to use it if you wish). If you don't feel comfortable using a tool, you are not going to use it optimally.

[wuffles]

Personally, I think there is too much pussy footing around with people these days. When I leaned to train, you did as you were told, you didn't tell the trainer that you didn't like for example check chains for the trainer to produced a tool you may like better, the trainer assessed your dog and told "you" what tools to use and then taught "you" how to use them being the reason you hired a trainer to learn how to train your dog? Good check chain work isn't easy to learn and get the timing right and probably most people struggled with it initially but the trainer worked on that with you until you got it right and not too many people if any that I can recall couldn't do get it right, some took a bit longer, but most mastered it easily enough after a few sessions with the trainer.

I was one of those people who messed up and lacked confidence with the check chain intially and I told my trainer exactly that, but he didn't whip out a different tool, he taught me confidence to use the tool correctly and I became good at it with great confidence, but nowdays, someone messes up intially or doesn't like a particular tool, the trainer just gives in and produces something else, not specifically to best suit the dog's behaviour, but to suit the dog's owner. I think in many cases, some trainers are too quick fire to pull out the wrong tool for the dog to suit the owner's whim where IMHO more work should be focused on the owner to teach the owner how to use the right tool for their dog.

I like that there is a variety of methods and tools for training your dog. It means that with research you can find a trainer that suits you and your dog, your training methodology/preference and if you wish to compete, the sport you are interested in. There are many ways to train every behaviour, even a simple sit.

Yes, I do too, things are much more advanced than the choke chain days, but I have found many people like to argue with trainers a lot more than they used to about tools and methods, one recently came up with a trainer suggesting an Ecollar for this particular dog and the owner refused to consider one leaving the trainer to arrange something less effective when the Ecollar would have been the ultimate in what needed to be addressed. Just thinking back when I began, you didn't argue with the trainer, you shut up listended intently and did what you were told, I guess it's culture evolution also?

So if you went to a trainer who said, "We are not using a prong, we are using a halti", would you shut up and do what you were told???

Agree with Kavik, there are methods I would not use on my dogs and that is my choice, I need both them and me to be comfortable with the methods. We have moved on from the "way back when" times.

[Aidan3]

I am not singling out Aidan other than his name came up in this thread having worked with a particular dog mentioned, but if I was in another state from NSW and couldn't make a booking with you personally for hands on prong collar training tuition, I would choose someone off your recommended list, prong in hand and expect they would teach me how to use it? I wouldn't expect one of your recommended trainers not to provide prong tuition or refuse to use one is what I am referring to, but thanks anyway for the explanation

I'm confused, are people supposed to turn up and do what the instructor advises them, or turn up with the tool they want and tell the instructor how they would like to be instructed?

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Wuffles So if you went to a trainer who said, "We are not using a prong, we are using a halti", would you shut up and do what you were told???

Agree with Kavik, there are methods I would not use on my dogs and that is my choice, I need both them and me to be comfortable with the methods. We have moved on from the "way back when" times.

Regardless of the trainers preferred tool, what I would want to know if I was to pay good money for what is essentially a professional service, is what results can I expect and how long will it take me to achieve it?

A trainer ought to be able to provide a client with a reasonable timeframe for a reasonable result. Now the trainer may wish to qualify (to an extent) this statement by saying, you will achieve this result in this timeframe so long as you do the work and follow instructions. I say he may qualify the statement to an extent for the reason that surely a professional trainers job is teach and motivate the student. In other words, I'm not paying the trainer to train the dog, but rather to teach me how to train the dog. And if he is going to take my money, he ought to be good at doing this.

On the other hand, when such trainers start telling me that the results I get and the timeframe in which I can reasonably expect to get such results, will depend on the dog, well I am sorry but that trainer ought not be taking money.

Furthermore, if said trainer were to tell me to use a halti, I would say fine - please show me one of your students dogs and what it can do and how long it took to get those results.

[Jumabaar]

Personally, I think there is too much pussy footing around with people these days. When I leaned to train, you did as you were told, you didn't tell the trainer that you didn't like for example check chains for the trainer to produced a tool you may like better, the trainer assessed your dog and told "you" what tools to use and then taught "you" how to use them being the reason you hired a trainer to learn how to train your dog? Good check chain work isn't easy to learn and get the timing right and probably most people struggled with it initially but the trainer worked on that with you until you got it right and not too many people if any that I can recall couldn't do get it right, some took a bit longer, but most mastered it easily enough after a few sessions with the trainer.

I was one of those people who messed up and lacked confidence with the check chain intially and I told my trainer exactly that, but he didn't whip out a different tool, he taught me confidence to use the tool correctly and I became good at it with great confidence, but nowdays, someone messes up intially or doesn't like a particular tool, the trainer just gives in and produces something else, not specifically to best suit the dog's behaviour, but to suit the dog's owner. I think in many cases, some trainers are too quick fire to pull out the wrong tool for the dog to suit the owner's whim where IMHO more work should be focused on the owner to teach the owner how to use the right tool for their dog.

I like that there is a variety of methods and tools for training your dog. It means that with research you can find a trainer that suits you and your dog, your training methodology/preference and if you wish to compete, the sport you are interested in. There are many ways to train every behaviour, even a simple sit.

Yes, I do too, things are much more advanced than the choke chain days, but I have found many people like to argue with trainers a lot more than they used to about tools and methods, one recently came up with a trainer suggesting an Ecollar for this particular dog and the owner refused to consider one leaving the trainer to arrange something less effective when the Ecollar would have been the ultimate in what needed to be addressed. Just thinking back when I began, you didn't argue with the trainer, you shut up listended intently and did what you were told, I guess it's culture evolution also?

You might also need to use a tool in a particular situation that may be perfect for the dog, but not allowed in the situation. Not informing the instructor of this, and just shutting up will be counter intuitive IMO. I go to an instructor because I need help, but if the help they are giving me isn't going to work shouldn't I tell them?? Also I have seen people that just straight out have bad timing- no amount of listening or following instructions manages to make a difference to their timing so I have seen instructors change tools to something that worked with both the handler and the dog, not just what worked best for the dog.

You need to look at the whole package- dog hand handler to get the best tool for that combination. No point using a prong if the person refuses to put it on the dog properly, or is to scared to ever correct using it.... No matter how good that tool is for that particular dog it will never achieve those results because the handler is unable to or unwilling to use it correctly. So you go to something different that will have better owner compliance even though it might take a little longer to achieve results. Better some results than no results at all. So long as the owner has the differences in the tools explained to them and they understand the consequences of each one- the consequences may be that the training won't work- then ultimately the dog trainer has provided the service that they have been paid for.

[megan_]

Success depends on a lot of factors: the owners intent to follow the instructions, the owners ability to actually execute the instructions (this is when I ark up to a trainer and say "to be honest, I don't actually have the skills to do that. We need to find a method that I'm confident to actually execute") and the dog's response to the method (my boy takes a lot longer to learn something via luring than via free shaping, took a fair whack of work for me to work this out).

I don't know of any (good) trainer who says "if you follow these instructions you'll get results in x weeks". I know a fair few crap ones that make all sorts of promises though (their methods usually involve shutting the dog down). Life just doesn't work like that and it opens the trainer up to people asking for refunds when they haven't met the goals.

Good trainers are wonderful assets but they don't play the lead role in the dog's progress (no disrespect to them at all, I'd be lost without Erny, Cosmolo and Steve). At the end of the day the dog lives with the owner - that is when push comes to shove.

I am a bit of a norty student and question a trainer becuase:

i) I like to understand why something works. If I understand this, I'm able to execute better

ii) I have a good understanding of my strengths and weaknesses. There is no point in my "putting on a show" for a trainer and letting them think I'll do something when they leave when I can't/won't. For example, I am fearful of offlead, large strange dogs when I walk my girl (fine with my boy because he speaks great "dog"). I told Steve I simply couldn't walk my girl past a shop that had two offleash great danes inside as I would tense up, my breathing would change etc and that would in turn cause a reaction from my reactive girl. Because I pushed back we were able to discuss an alternative plan of attack.