Vet Fees (surgery Extras) - Blood Tests And Iv Fluids (optional)

[Dame Aussie]

If you're that worried about bloods you should be getting them done routinely and not just before your dog needs surgery.

I can't speak for anyone else, but we do get bloods done routinely.

[Guest donatella]

I haven't had any done for Lucy but I might get some at her 12 month vaccination/check up in a few months

[Jumabaar]

I meant as a get the owners to cough as much as you can even if the animal doesn't need it type business. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

I don't think fluids fall into this category. There are too many benefits from them in my book and I think when I graduate I be applying to work at clinics that offer them as a standard rather than an extra.

I'm going to put my flame suit on her but here goes....

I get sick and tired of reading where people only feed raw, barf, holistic foods etc, or do chiropractic, physio or hydrotherapy, spend money on fancy bedding or flashy collar and leads, toys etc all for the betterment of their dogs. People seem to do whatever they can to make their pets more comfortable or look after their well being better these days and I have no problem with these things.....

But when it comes to doing pre-operative bloods and fluid therapy during surgery which would make it an easier for your pet, the vets and nurses whom you are entrusting the life of your pet to, by knowing how their organs which are processing the anaesthetics are working, having an easier and quicker wake up for your pet. People often say, "oh she'll be right she doesn't need it". How do you know your pet doesn't need it?

Everytime you or your pets go under an anaesthetic there are risks so why not minimise them by doing all you can. Your doctor would not let you nor would you want to have surgery without these things so why if you do everything else for your pet would you not want what is best for your pets during surgery?

Next time you buy something that you think your dog "needs" think about putting that money aside for your dogs next surgery instead. It could save his/her life.

I agree with this.

If you're that worried about bloods you should be getting them done routinely and not just before your dog needs surgery.

I can't speak for anyone else, but we do get bloods done routinely.

Donatella- the other aspect of bloods on dogs is that they hide being sick much better than humans can. A human goes to the dr if they are feeling unwell/flat, but the same level of illness in a dog won't necessarily be picked up. AKA if my Kelpies don't eat a meal they get taken to emergency because that just doesn't happen- pins in mouths, broken teeth, bleeding into joint cavities were all ignored by them. So vets need bloods to tell them what the dogs are hiding.

Also I have had two drs that required me to get a pre anaesthetic blood test prior to my surgery. They were completely over the top perfectionists, which is why I went to them. The dr who didn't do all the testing also did a crappy job on the surgery. Perhaps there is some correlation between theses factors?

I also will be getting bloods done no my older dogs every year or two.

[Guest donatella]

This is why i said if people are worried about bloods they should be getting them done routinely, I am not disagreeing that bloods are a bad thing.

In regards to human doctors I wouldnt have any surgery done in a small hospital. The bigger ones have the with best consultants and most up to date training and technology. In regards to crappy surgery that's where its at, not bloods. They often do that whilst your under if need be. it's also got nothing to do with private vs public either, all the biggest surgeries (heart, head and neck etc) will still be transported to next closest biggest public hospital. It's got to do with consultants, registrars, equipment, theatres and nurses. Absolutely nowhere does pre bloods make a crappy surgery.

[Guest lavendergirl]

This is why i said if people are worried about bloods they should be getting them done routinely, I am not disagreeing that bloods are a bad thing.

In regards to human doctors I wouldnt have any surgery done in a small hospital. The bigger ones have the with best consultants and most up to date training and technology. In regards to crappy surgery that's where its at, not bloods. They often do that whilst your under if need be. it's also got nothing to do with private vs public either, all the biggest surgeries (heart, head and neck etc) will still be transported to next closest biggest public hospital. It's got to do with consultants, registrars, equipment, theatres and nurses. Absolutely nowhere does pre bloods make a crappy surgery.

Its not a matter of people being "worried about bloods" its a matter of vets wanting to know what they are dealing with while a dog is under sedation for a surgical procedure.

OT but plenty of major surgeries get done in state of the art private hospitals with the same consultant surgeons who work in both sectors.

[Dame Aussie]

I haven't had any done for Lucy but I might get some at her 12 month vaccination/check up in a few months

Yeah we normally do them as an annual health check.

[Guest donatella]

All the consultants work in the private and public sector it's how they make their money but their are are certain ones that will not get done in public as there is just not the equipment.

If the vet needs bloods or is concerned they should ask for them, why is it up to the owner to decide, that is my point. The vet is the expert, if they think my dog needs it pre surgery I'll do it, if she's not in the risk factor then I'll leave it. Ive found a great vet that doesn't offer all these extras and does what needs doing, it's great!

[Jumabaar]

This is why i said if people are worried about bloods they should be getting them done routinely, I am not disagreeing that bloods are a bad thing.

In regards to human doctors I wouldnt have any surgery done in a small hospital. The bigger ones have the with best consultants and most up to date training and technology. In regards to crappy surgery that's where its at, not bloods. They often do that whilst your under if need be. it's also got nothing to do with private vs public either, all the biggest surgeries (heart, head and neck etc) will still be transported to next closest biggest public hospital. It's got to do with consultants, registrars, equipment, theatres and nurses. Absolutely nowhere does pre bloods make a crappy surgery.

Its not a matter of people being "worried about bloods" its a matter of vets wanting to know what they are dealing with while a dog is under sedation for a surgical procedure.

OT but plenty of major surgeries get done in state of the art private hospitals with the same consultant surgeons who work in both sectors.

I was indicating that a good doctor is pro active in making sure that their surgery goes smoothly. I know there are good doctors who don't do bloods but a doctor that does do bloods at least shows to me that they are slightly pedantic and thats what I am after when I get knocked out. And I have had surgery done at a smaller, but well equipped hospital because I wanted a particular surgeon. The blood test didn't make the surgery any better but it was an indication of the dr's attention to detail, as were the x-rays he performed pre and post op.

And I have to say the same for vets. A vet that doesn't offer fluids for almost all surgeries is not offering their clients best practice- unless they are mandatory for most surgeries. Its the same as vets that remove teeth without x-raying pre and post op. It is not strictly required but know what you are going in for, and checking that you have got all the teeth out after is considered an extra cost for some, but to me is insurance that there will be no complications.

Pre anaesthetic bloods and fluids are like insurance. It doesn't mean that everything will go ok, but if you had the opportunity to take it out and didn't, then have a problem you are kicking yourself after..... Everything is a risk game- you just need to determine the odds and make a bet. I am risk averse so make the safe bet whenever I have the chance to. I personally don't want anyone deciding that my dog is low risk and doesn't need it because I will still always take the safer rout. Burnt once= twice shy.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Jumabaar

[Are You Serious Jo]

Fluids are helpful but really aren't necessary for every animal. Some bounce back quickly without it so it isn't something that is crucial. I agree that it is preferable but is still something that should be optional for healthy animals who have no indication it is needed.

[dancinbcs]

I'm going to put my flame suit on her but here goes....

I get sick and tired of reading where people only feed raw, barf, holistic foods etc, or do chiropractic, physio or hydrotherapy, spend money on fancy bedding or flashy collar and leads, toys etc all for the betterment of their dogs. People seem to do whatever they can to make their pets more comfortable or look after their well being better these days and I have no problem with these things.....

But when it comes to doing pre-operative bloods and fluid therapy during surgery which would make it an easier for your pet, the vets and nurses whom you are entrusting the life of your pet to, by knowing how their organs which are processing the anaesthetics are working, having an easier and quicker wake up for your pet. People often say, "oh she'll be right she doesn't need it". How do you know your pet doesn't need it?

Everytime you or your pets go under an anaesthetic there are risks so why not minimise them by doing all you can. Your doctor would not let you nor would you want to have surgery without these things so why if you do everything else for your pet would you not want what is best for your pets during surgery?

Next time you buy something that you think your dog "needs" think about putting that money aside for your dogs next surgery instead. It could save his/her life.

I use one of the best known vets in Sydney that are used by a large percentage of the breeders down here. Many travel an hour or more to get to them. They do not offer optional extras, giving fluids if THEY think the dog needs it but I have never heard of anyone having to get blood tests done before routine surgery. For that matter I myself have never had a blood test before surgery. The only place I have ever heard of pre anaesthetic blood tests is on DOL.

One of the most common surgeries my vets do is caesars and even with a scheduled one I don't think bloods are ever mentioned, so I find these discussions quite puzzling when talking about routine surgeries like spays and especially simple castrations. What difference does the blood test make to how they do the surgery? What about anaesthetics for things like hip scoring? Do some vets do blood tests before that? Our vets use the best and safest anaesthetic for every patient so I don't know what they could do different anyway.

Naturally with ill or very old dogs they do a full health work up including blood, x-rays, etc before considering surgery that is not an emergency the same as is done with humans but with obvious healthy animals that need routine surgeries why would they need blood tests?

[Guest donatella]

I'm going to put my flame suit on her but here goes....

I get sick and tired of reading where people only feed raw, barf, holistic foods etc, or do chiropractic, physio or hydrotherapy, spend money on fancy bedding or flashy collar and leads, toys etc all for the betterment of their dogs. People seem to do whatever they can to make their pets more comfortable or look after their well being better these days and I have no problem with these things.....

But when it comes to doing pre-operative bloods and fluid therapy during surgery which would make it an easier for your pet, the vets and nurses whom you are entrusting the life of your pet to, by knowing how their organs which are processing the anaesthetics are working, having an easier and quicker wake up for your pet. People often say, "oh she'll be right she doesn't need it". How do you know your pet doesn't need it?

Everytime you or your pets go under an anaesthetic there are risks so why not minimise them by doing all you can. Your doctor would not let you nor would you want to have surgery without these things so why if you do everything else for your pet would you not want what is best for your pets during surgery?

Next time you buy something that you think your dog "needs" think about putting that money aside for your dogs next surgery instead. It could save his/her life.

9

I use one of the best known vets in Sydney that are used by a large percentage of the breeders down here. Many travel an hour or more to get to them. They do not offer optional extras, giving fluids if THEY think the dog needs it but I have never heard of anyone having to get blood tests done before routine surgery. For that matter I myself have never had a blood test before surgery. The only place I have ever heard of pre anaesthetic blood tests is on DOL.

One of the most common surgeries my vets do is caesars and even with a scheduled one I don't think bloods are ever mentioned, so I find these discussions quite puzzling when talking about routine surgeries like spays and especially simple castrations. What difference does the blood test make to how they do the surgery? What about anaesthetics for things like hip scoring? Do some vets do blood tests before that? Our vets use the best and safest anaesthetic for every patient so I don't know what they could do different anyway.

Naturally with ill or very old dogs they do a full health work up including blood, x-rays, etc before considering surgery that is not an emergency the same as is done with humans but with obvious healthy animals that need routine surgeries why would they need blood tests?

This is absolutely exactly what I have been saying and why I travel to a vet who doesn't have these extras but provides the care as my dog needs it, not as I chose to as an 'extra'.

Also if you want to be pedantic about human bloods for surgery you're better off getting them post op as you can lose blood in theatre and your electrolytes can be out of whack. I know most of our patients get bloods done after a surgery not before.

[jrm88]

I'm going to put my flame suit on her but here goes....

I get sick and tired of reading where people only feed raw, barf, holistic foods etc, or do chiropractic, physio or hydrotherapy, spend money on fancy bedding or flashy collar and leads, toys etc all for the betterment of their dogs. People seem to do whatever they can to make their pets more comfortable or look after their well being better these days and I have no problem with these things.....

But when it comes to doing pre-operative bloods and fluid therapy during surgery which would make it an easier for your pet, the vets and nurses whom you are entrusting the life of your pet to, by knowing how their organs which are processing the anaesthetics are working, having an easier and quicker wake up for your pet. People often say, "oh she'll be right she doesn't need it". How do you know your pet doesn't need it?

Everytime you or your pets go under an anaesthetic there are risks so why not minimise them by doing all you can. Your doctor would not let you nor would you want to have surgery without these things so why if you do everything else for your pet would you not want what is best for your pets during surgery?

Next time you buy something that you think your dog "needs" think about putting that money aside for your dogs next surgery instead. It could save his/her life.

I use one of the best known vets in Sydney that are used by a large percentage of the breeders down here. Many travel an hour or more to get to them. They do not offer optional extras, giving fluids if THEY think the dog needs it but I have never heard of anyone having to get blood tests done before routine surgery. For that matter I myself have never had a blood test before surgery. The only place I have ever heard of pre anaesthetic blood tests is on DOL.

One of the most common surgeries my vets do is caesars and even with a scheduled one I don't think bloods are ever mentioned, so I find these discussions quite puzzling when talking about routine surgeries like spays and especially simple castrations. What difference does the blood test make to how they do the surgery? What about anaesthetics for things like hip scoring? Do some vets do blood tests before that? Our vets use the best and safest anaesthetic for every patient so I don't know what they could do different anyway.

Naturally with ill or very old dogs they do a full health work up including blood, x-rays, etc before considering surgery that is not an emergency the same as is done with humans but with obvious healthy animals that need routine surgeries why would they need blood tests?

Bloods can make a difference because:

If bloods show raised kidney values, animal should be on fluids much much longer post op (until the next day, so are hospitalised overnight)

If we are doing surgery on a known kidney patient, we will have them on fluids 24hrs pre and post op.

If bloods show raised liver enzymes, surgery may not be in the patients best interest (e.g. if the animal is on the verge of liver failure, would you do an elective lump removal that doesnt *need* to be removed?) Liver values can be hugely raised and the animal not show clinical symptoms

If bloods show a raised white count, there is an infection/inflammation within the body somewhere, that might need to be investigated first.

If PCV/TP is high/low, this could indicate a loss of blood from somewhere (a mass somewhere possibly, a genetic disorder, etc)

Different anaesthetic agents are better suited to different patients, and the vet can make the best informed decision. Different pain relief is also used for different patients.

E.g. kidney patients do not get nsaids, if a patient has bloods, and shows slightly raised kidney values, an opiate drug is used instead.

An animal may appear 'obviously healthy', but who knows?? They may have a liver shunt, they may be at the start of kidney failure, they may have an infection somewhere, etc

The general public are not good at picking up on clinical symptoms that alot of people on DOL would notice. Drinking excessively, urinating excessively, eating too much, not eating enough, lethargic behavior, vomiting, diarrhoea... alot of these things, people just dont think it is significant so think their animal is healthy. It is only until they get a blood test done and we say "there is actually a problem here" and they go "oh yeah.. I guess they do drink a bit..."

Yes, older animals are generally the ones with issues, but this in no way means that young animals do not become unwell and the sooner picked up, the better treated/managed/discussed/etc.

Edited January 7, 2012 by jrm88

[Are You Serious Jo]

The vet school in Adelaide that treats the public's pets won't desex without bloods and pain relief, not sure about fluid being mandatory. It is becoming more common to offer it and I can see a time when most vets won't operate without it.

[dancinbcs]

The general public are not good at picking up on clinical symptoms that alot of people on DOL would notice. Drinking excessively, urinating excessively, eating too much, not eating enough, lethargic behavior, vomiting, diarrhoea... alot of these things, people just dont think it is significant so think their animal is healthy. It is only until they get a blood test done and we say "there is actually a problem here" and they go "oh yeah.. I guess they do drink a bit..."

Well maybe this is the difference with my vets dealing almost exclusively with breeders rather than pet owners.

[jacqui835]

Well I just received a full page letter from an old vet I visited once in Sydney basically telling me that I'm a bad pet owner unless I schedule for my dog to have a blood test annually. They were claiming it should be done at the same time as annual vaccinations, and all for the bargain price of $175 (plus of course the vaccination and consultation fees which would mean I would be spending over $300 at the vet when my pet was completely healthy). I think it's great that they're offering all these services to pet owners, but what I don't appreciate is being told that if I really care about my pet, I wouldn't hesitate in signing up for all these extras.

I opted for no extras when I had my male kitten desexed, it's like a 5 minute procedure as he had 2 normal testicles and I've seen pigs undergo the procedure with any anesthetic and recover immediately. I don't desex my dogs, but if I decided to have a female animal done, I would probably opt for extras there just because it's a much more serious procedure.

[Mags]

Well I just received a full page letter from an old vet I visited once in Sydney basically telling me that I'm a bad pet owner unless I schedule for my dog to have a blood test annually. They were claiming it should be done at the same time as annual vaccinations, and all for the bargain price of $175 (plus of course the vaccination and consultation fees which would mean I would be spending over $300 at the vet when my pet was completely healthy). I think it's great that they're offering all these services to pet owners, but what I don't appreciate is being told that if I really care about my pet, I wouldn't hesitate in signing up for all these extras.

Now that's not nice, not necessary and not even true. Even the AVA has moved to 3 yr vaccinations in their guidelines and full bloods on healthy young animals why? I do choose to get regular bloods done on our oldies so we are aware of anything going wrong asap but I certainly wouldn't have it done on healthy young animals and I imagine my vets would think I was going mad and would tell me so.

[wire]

Did bloods on our one year old dog before desexing and it came back with him having liver problems so we postponed the op till things returned to normal so a 'yes' from us.

[Gayle.]

Why is it optional for surgery and offered as an "extra" or "upgrade"? It's starting to sound like.......do you want fries with that? If it is integral to the health and wellbeing of the animal, it should be built into the cost of the surgery and routinely done.

[Rappie]

This situation puts vets in between a rock and a hard place.

If bloods and fluids are not done and not offered - a general opinion / expectation is that vets would do what is needed and they are better / more experienced because they do this.

If bloods and fluids are offered but not compulsory - the vets are only offering to make more money.

If bloods and fluids are compulsory - it increases the cost of surgery, vets are accused of hiking costs up and frequently, and frequently a decision is made on cost comparison alone regardless of the standard of care.

In my hands, IV fluids are not negotiable, nor is pain relief. It's either just included in the cost (such as for desexing) or is a standard part of the estimate. If there is a good reason not to do IV fluids (very short IV only procedure etc) then they won't be run, but an IV catheter gets placed routinely.

Pre-anaesthetic bloods are not negotiable for many unstable and/or elderly patients, strongly recommended for patients 7 years and older and optional but recommended as the best option for routine surgeries in other patients. It's all based on the relative risk of having a problem, sometimes I might say bloods are not essential but this is by no means indicating they would not be useful and you can bet that I will discuss why they are run and note that they have been declined. If the blood test is what stands between having a procedure done or not, then I'll work around it. Our patients don't talk and often owners are not acutely aware of their pet's health, I don't have xray fingers and sometimes I leave my crystal ball at home. Sometimes we need more information to make the best decision. I see my role as an advocate for the patient, I provide advice based on my knowledge and experience. I present available options, owners make decisions about which of those fit with their needs and budget.

[BC4ME]

This situation puts vets in between a rock and a hard place.

If bloods and fluids are not done and not offered - a general opinion / expectation is that vets would do what is needed and they are better / more experienced because they do this.

If bloods and fluids are offered but not compulsory - the vets are only offering to make more money.

If bloods and fluids are compulsory - it increases the cost of surgery, vets are accused of hiking costs up and frequently, and frequently a decision is made on cost comparison alone regardless of the standard of care.

In my hands, IV fluids are not negotiable, nor is pain relief. It's either just included in the cost (such as for desexing) or is a standard part of the estimate. If there is a good reason not to do IV fluids (very short IV only procedure etc) then they won't be run, but an IV catheter gets placed routinely.

Pre-anaesthetic bloods are not negotiable for many unstable and/or elderly patients, strongly recommended for patients 7 years and older and optional but recommended as the best option for routine surgeries in other patients. It's all based on the relative risk of having a problem, sometimes I might say bloods are not essential but this is by no means indicating they would not be useful and you can bet that I will discuss why they are run and note that they have been declined. If the blood test is what stands between having a procedure done or not, then I'll work around it. Our patients don't talk and often owners are not acutely aware of their pet's health, I don't have xray fingers and sometimes I leave my crystal ball at home. Sometimes we need more information to make the best decision. I see my role as an advocate for the patient, I provide advice based on my knowledge and experience. I present available options, owners make decisions about which of those fit with their needs and budget.

:clap: Well said :clap:

There is one piece of advice that I was given when I first became a vet nurse and I now pass that information onto people who want to become vets/nurses... and that is "Not everyone will look after their pets the same way you look after your own".

There are many days when I go home and give my pets a cuddle and tell them how lucky they are to be living with me.

I maybe becoming cynical these days but the lead up to Christmas is always a difficult time in the animal industry and last year was one of the worst.

People need to understand that pets are for a lifetime, this means they will need veterinary care and it's not just a way of wasting your money. By putting a little away each week or getting pet insurance helps when unexpected expenses arise.

Try putting your $2 coins in a coke can, when the can is full you will have around $500. You won't miss your $2 coins but it will hopefully help save your pet one day.