Weasels Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Red and chocolate in Kelpies are both the brown gene so they are the same colour but when the standard was written no on knew that. Sadly many standards are genetically incorrect for colour because no one had a clue about genetics when they decided what colours to include. Chocolate in a Border Collie is brown but the colour termed red in BCs is the ee gene which is called orange/gold/yellow/cream in most other breeds. Dog pigment can only be black, brown or the dilutions of these two colours, blue/grey or fawn/lilac (Wei colour). Hair colour can also be yellow (ee) which masks the basic pigment colour in the coat or white. All other "colours" are patterns made from combinations of these colours. The shade and intensity of any colour, including black will vary from dog to dog but they can still only be one of four basic pigment colours and anything else is a coat pattern. This would be so much easier for everyone to follow if the colours had the same name in all breeds. Thanks dancinbcs! Very informative post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Red and chocolate in Kelpies are both the brown gene so they are the same colour but when the standard was written no on knew that. Sadly many standards are genetically incorrect for colour because no one had a clue about genetics when they decided what colours to include. Chocolate in a Border Collie is brown but the colour termed red in BCs is the ee gene which is called orange/gold/yellow/cream in most other breeds. Dog pigment can only be black, brown or the dilutions of these two colours, blue/grey or fawn/lilac (Wei colour). Hair colour can also be yellow (ee) which masks the basic pigment colour in the coat or white. All other "colours" are patterns made from combinations of these colours. The shade and intensity of any colour, including black will vary from dog to dog but they can still only be one of four basic pigment colours and anything else is a coat pattern. This would be so much easier for everyone to follow if the colours had the same name in all breeds. Thanks dancinbcs! Very informative post I'm glad someone understood it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzygirl Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Red and chocolate in Kelpies are both the brown gene so they are the same colour but when the standard was written no on knew that. Sadly many standards are genetically incorrect for colour because no one had a clue about genetics when they decided what colours to include. Chocolate in a Border Collie is brown but the colour termed red in BCs is the ee gene which is called orange/gold/yellow/cream in most other breeds. Dog pigment can only be black, brown or the dilutions of these two colours, blue/grey or fawn/lilac (Wei colour). Hair colour can also be yellow (ee) which masks the basic pigment colour in the coat or white. All other "colours" are patterns made from combinations of these colours. The shade and intensity of any colour, including black will vary from dog to dog but they can still only be one of four basic pigment colours and anything else is a coat pattern. This would be so much easier for everyone to follow if the colours had the same name in all breeds. Thanks dancinbcs! Very informative post I'm glad someone understood it. FANTASTIC POST :D And Yes it would be easier to follow if they all had the same name! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xena98 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I have a question about colour. Understand the chocolate and the red kelpie but am confused about the red cloud kelpie which is basically a chocolate. I want to know what is the difference and why is it only in WA they are called that Just very confused about it and when I have asked nobody could give me an answer. Thanks guys From Wikipedia "An early Kelpie, Sally was mated to Moss a smooth haired Collie and she produced a black pup that was named Barb after the black horse, The Barb who won the Melbourne Cup in 1866. This then was how black Kelpies became known as Barb Kelpies.[8] There were a number of Kelpies called 'Red Cloud'. The first and most famous was John Quinn's Red Cloud in the early 20th century, and then in the 1960s another "Red Cloud" that became very well known in Western Australia. This started the tradition in Western Australia of calling all red or red and tan Kelpies, especially those with white chests, Red Cloud Kelpies." Thanks Dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The original 'Red Cloud' was actually a kelpie cross that dominated the WA sheepdog scene in the 1920's. Definitely true about stories being passed on and getting changed - this from the Tony Parson's Kelpie book : 'Red Cloud became a legendary dog, larger than life and for a full ten years after his death, if the advertisements are to be believed, continued to sire a host of puppies.' Gotta love an Aussie legend ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbi Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 This is my dear old Kelpie Jess(now dec.) She was a most unusual colour, I got her in the mid north of South Australia in the late 80s and I have only ever seen one or two others with similar colouring, is it common in other states? 3870274970_b8bccab20b.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzygirl Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 This is my dear old Kelpie Jess(now dec.) She was a most unusual colour, I got her in the mid north of South Australia in the late 80s and I have only ever seen one or two others with similar colouring, is it common in other states? 3870274970_b8bccab20b.jpg This is our Jazz. Robbi, can't say I've seen that colouring here in Tassie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smooch Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) This is my dear old Kelpie Jess(now dec.) She was a most unusual colour, I got her in the mid north of South Australia in the late 80s and I have only ever seen one or two others with similar colouring, is it common in other states? 3870274970_b8bccab20b.jpg This is Jimmy my new working dog. I would class him as a fawn although he has now gone more of a chocolate colour in the couple months since I got him. Smooch is a Smokey, no tan whatsoever only a little white on the chest. The Smokeys are very hard to come by. Edited January 6, 2012 by smooch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) To me red clouds are solid red, no tan and maybe only a very small amount of white. Many people I have spoken to seem to think there are Red Clouds and then there are Kelpies. Many are adamant they are different breeds................... Edited January 6, 2012 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 This is my dear old Kelpie Jess(now dec.) She was a most unusual colour, I got her in the mid north of South Australia in the late 80s and I have only ever seen one or two others with similar colouring, is it common in other states? 3870274970_b8bccab20b.jpg This is Jimmy my new working dog. I would class him as a fawn although he has now gone more of a chocolate colour in the couple months since I got him. Smooch is a Smokey, no tan whatsoever only a little white on the chest. The Smokeys are very hard to come by. Genetically these dogs are both fawn which is dilute brown (red/choc). In BCs it is termed lilac and they can have tan points or not but the fawn with tan points is not in the Kelpie standard. Robbi, your old girl is the same. Dilute brown with tan points and white markings. With that much white she could have BC in her as well and in a BC the colour would be termed lilac tri. It is not in the BC standard in Aust but acceptable anywhere else in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 To me red clouds are solid red, no tan and maybe only a very small amount of white. Many people I have spoken to seem to think there are Red Clouds and then there are Kelpies. Many are adamant they are different breeds................... I have always known "Red Clouds" to be red and tan (with or without white). And yes so many people in WA seem to think the Red Cloud is a different breed to a Kelpie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katdogs Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 So is black with a smattering of white under the chin and a white chest marking acceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Genetically these dogs are both fawn which is dilute brown (red/choc). In BCs it is termed lilac and they can have tan points or not but the fawn with tan points is not in the Kelpie standard. Robbi, your old girl is the same. Dilute brown with tan points and white markings. With that much white she could have BC in her as well and in a BC the colour would be termed lilac tri. It is not in the BC standard in Aust but acceptable anywhere else in the world. I was thinking crossbreed with that amount of white too The base colours are definitely fawn and tan, but in my (certainly not extensive) experience I've not seen that much white on a kelpie. Beautiful dog either way! I never get sick of seeing pictures of Jimmy & Smooch either :D It's funny I've seen a few pictures of fawn kelpies in DOL signatures but I can't recall seeing a dilute black around except in the link Kavik posted. If the colour and dilution genes are unlinked there should be the same proportion of 'blue' kelpies around as there are fawns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) I've seen the odd blue, and a friend has bred a blue/tan working line Kelpie. I also remember seeing a spate of blues in the rescue/pound threads a little while ago. So they are around. What seems unfair to me is that the creams are not allowed in the show ring - they crop up in working line litters a bit, not as common as red/tan or black/tan, but I have seen quite a few now and seen several on breeder websites, and it is definitely a historically appearing colour. Edited January 6, 2012 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Thanks Kavik, I guess it's just me then Perhaps my 'fawn kelpie radar' is just more attuned because I am so smitten by the foxdog and I've failed to notice some blues. Edited January 6, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I've only seen a few fawns - at least one at agility. Certainly the blues aren't all that common. I have seen more creams than either of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I haven't seen any creams 'in person' yet But they are really stunning dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smooch Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 This is Diesal. He does have tan points that don't really show up too well in the pic. and Paige, Smoochies full sister 2 years younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 There are a reasonable amount fo Blues around here snd districts as there is a working kelpie breeder that has produced quite a few. I have seen a few stunning fawns as well but that guy isn't breeding many anymore which is a shame as they are great workers and also stunning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevorne Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 The red and chocolate are different. sometimes the red is a good red, sometimes a poor red, same with chocolate. The coat changes dramatically with change of season/coat, and how much sun the Kelpie is exposed too. The red coat is the hardest to keep in top condition. I have one of each and when both are in good coat the difference is obvious. Not so obvious when the dogs are not togther. When the bitch is dropping coat due to the weather or being in season, she looks a lighter chocolate which could be mistaken for red. The biggest thing to keep the coat the correct colour is to keep the harsh sun off them, most show Keplies are only run out early morning and late evening/night time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now