jazzygirl Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Hi all, I need help regarding the colour genetics when breeding. I have been looking on the internet but I seem to be mo0re confused! Our Purebred Kelpie bitch Jazz had her 1st litter of pups in May 2010. Jazz is a Red and Tan and the dog we used was Black and Tan, ALL 10 (1 still born) were Black and Tan. My question is, will we only be able to get Red and Tan offspring if both parents are Red and Tan? I do hear conflicting statements, hence the confusion. Both Jazz's parent's were Red and Tan but on her Sires side there seems to be alot of Black and Tan down the line. Any help would be appreciated, Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Here is a site on Kelpie colours, if it helps at all http://www.hnrworkingkelpies.com/Coat_Colors.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roova Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 OT sorry but I find the dilutes on that site very pretty! Hopefully not a stupid question but are they allowed in the show ring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Red is recessive to black so a black that carries red could produce some red offspring to your girl. Using a red dog would give you a full red litter because red cannot carry black. The best idea is to use the best dog and work with whatever colours you get. At the moment I would be wary of having red Kelpies for sale. I can see them being in huge demand by people who shouldn't own them, because of the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausy.dog Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 My understanding is red is a recessive colour. Therefore to get red from a black and red mating the black needs to carry a copy of the red gene. I imagine with a black/red mating the ratio would be around 3:1 in favour of black if you had a sire that carried the red gene. If you got all blacks then your sire is probably not carrying the recessive red gene. If you mate red to red 100% of the pups will be red. It is impossible to get any blacks from that mating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Allowable colours are: Black, black and tan, red, red and tan, fawn, chocolate, and smoke blue. Which is really strange because chocolate is called red in the Kelpie. Fawn is dilute red/choc and blue is dilute black, so yes the dilutes are allowed. Edited January 4, 2012 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 My understanding is red is a recessive colour. Therefore to get red from a black and red mating the black needs to carry a copy of the red gene. I imagine with a black/red mating the ratio would be around 3:1 in favour of black if you had a sire that carried the red gene. If you got all blacks then your sire is probably not carrying the recessive red gene. If you mate red to red 100% of the pups will be red. It is impossible to get any blacks from that mating. For a red to black carrying red mating, each puppy has a 50% chance of being red. The sire can contribute either a red or black gene and his contribution will determine the colour as the dam has only red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzygirl Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Red is recessive to black so a black that carries red could produce some red offspring to your girl. Using a red dog would give you a full red litter because red cannot carry black. The best idea is to use the best dog and work with whatever colours you get. At the moment I would be wary of having red Kelpies for sale. I can see them being in huge demand by people who shouldn't own them, because of the movie. I didn't even think about the movie! Yes, you could be right there. We are wanting to keep a female from our girls next litter and we do prefer the red and tan. With Jazzy's first litter we were very selective of the homes and they all went to working farms in Tassie. I am still in touch with 7 out of the 9 owners which I think is great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) MalteseLuna is a coat colour genetics genius, but I think she is off having a life :p OT sorry but I find the dilutes on that site very pretty! Hopefully not a stupid question but are they allowed in the show ring? I have nothing helpful to add, but I do have a gratuitous picture of a fawn (dilute red) kelpie :D Edited January 4, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Allowable colours are: Black, black and tan, red, red and tan, fawn, chocolate, and smoke blue. Which is really strange because chocolate is called red in the Kelpie. Fawn is dilute red/choc and blue is dilute black, so yes the dilutes are allowed. Chocolate and red are different colours according to show people. Although it is difficult to tell by looking sometimes :p Would be interesting to DNA test the chocolate and red show dogs to see if there is a different gene I do find it strange that you can't have tan markings with chocolate but can with red. But then I have seen some registered red/tan dogs who are darker brown than registered chocolate dogs :D As for the colours of the pups, what colour are the parents of the black/tan dog? If they are both black there is a good chance that the dog doesn't carry the red gene. If one parent was red then it was just a fluke that all dogs were born black/tan You would "expect" 50:50 from a red to black mating in terms of colour, but really it is a 50:50 chance of each pup being red or black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzygirl Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 I tell ya, it's mighty difficult to find a Red/Tan Male in Tassie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Allowable colours are: Black, black and tan, red, red and tan, fawn, chocolate, and smoke blue. Which is really strange because chocolate is called red in the Kelpie. Fawn is dilute red/choc and blue is dilute black, so yes the dilutes are allowed. We do however have colour dilute alopecia in the breed So not many of them are shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausy.dog Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 My understanding is red is a recessive colour. Therefore to get red from a black and red mating the black needs to carry a copy of the red gene. I imagine with a black/red mating the ratio would be around 3:1 in favour of black if you had a sire that carried the red gene. If you got all blacks then your sire is probably not carrying the recessive red gene. If you mate red to red 100% of the pups will be red. It is impossible to get any blacks from that mating. For a red to black carrying red mating, each puppy has a 50% chance of being red. The sire can contribute either a red or black gene and his contribution will determine the colour as the dam has only red. Ah yes, I was doing a punnett square for two blacks carrying the red gene in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The line between red and chocolate confuses me too Some look very red and some very choc but there seems to a fair bit of transition in between. And what they call 'red' in the link Kavik posted was clearly a cream to me. I wonder if that's because it's an American site? Anyway, I've given up. I just call them all 'red' unless the owner says it's choc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausy.dog Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The line between red and chocolate confuses me too Some look very red and some very choc but there seems to a fair bit of transition in between. And what they call 'red' in the link Kavik posted was clearly a cream to me. I wonder if that's because it's an American site? Anyway, I've given up. I just call them all 'red' unless the owner says it's choc Haha, yep me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xena98 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I have a question about colour. Understand the chocolate and the red kelpie but am confused about the red cloud kelpie which is basically a chocolate. I want to know what is the difference and why is it only in WA they are called that Just very confused about it and when I have asked nobody could give me an answer. Thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Dunno Xena but would love to find out! I'd never heard of a red cloud 'til I moved to WA. From talking to locals, I think some think it is a red dog with a white blaze, some think it's a red & tan or red/tan/white I even had someone call the foxdog a 'silver cloud'. Lovely name, but I haven't heard the term before or since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Allowable colours are: Black, black and tan, red, red and tan, fawn, chocolate, and smoke blue. Which is really strange because chocolate is called red in the Kelpie. Fawn is dilute red/choc and blue is dilute black, so yes the dilutes are allowed. Chocolate and red are different colours according to show people. Although it is difficult to tell by looking sometimes :p Would be interesting to DNA test the chocolate and red show dogs to see if there is a different gene I do find it strange that you can't have tan markings with chocolate but can with red. But then I have seen some registered red/tan dogs who are darker brown than registered chocolate dogs :D As for the colours of the pups, what colour are the parents of the black/tan dog? If they are both black there is a good chance that the dog doesn't carry the red gene. If one parent was red then it was just a fluke that all dogs were born black/tan You would "expect" 50:50 from a red to black mating in terms of colour, but really it is a 50:50 chance of each pup being red or black Red and chocolate in Kelpies are both the brown gene so they are the same colour but when the standard was written no on knew that. Sadly many standards are genetically incorrect for colour because no one had a clue about genetics when they decided what colours to include. Chocolate in a Border Collie is brown but the colour termed red in BCs is the ee gene which is called orange/gold/yellow/cream in most other breeds. Dog pigment can only be black, brown or the dilutions of these two colours, blue/grey or fawn/lilac (Wei colour). Hair colour can also be yellow (ee) which masks the basic pigment colour in the coat or white. All other "colours" are patterns made from combinations of these colours. The shade and intensity of any colour, including black will vary from dog to dog but they can still only be one of four basic pigment colours and anything else is a coat pattern. This would be so much easier for everyone to follow if the colours had the same name in all breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I have a question about colour. Understand the chocolate and the red kelpie but am confused about the red cloud kelpie which is basically a chocolate. I want to know what is the difference and why is it only in WA they are called that Just very confused about it and when I have asked nobody could give me an answer. Thanks guys From Wikipedia "An early Kelpie, Sally was mated to Moss a smooth haired Collie and she produced a black pup that was named Barb after the black horse, The Barb who won the Melbourne Cup in 1866. This then was how black Kelpies became known as Barb Kelpies.[8] There were a number of Kelpies called 'Red Cloud'. The first and most famous was John Quinn's Red Cloud in the early 20th century, and then in the 1960s another "Red Cloud" that became very well known in Western Australia. This started the tradition in Western Australia of calling all red or red and tan Kelpies, especially those with white chests, Red Cloud Kelpies." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 From another part of wiki though - Kelpies referred to as Red Cloud Kelpies have red features with white markings on the face, chest, and feet. I think it's one of those typical folklore things, gets altered slightly with each retelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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