Help Please

[missy2484]

OK so i have been reading these forums for years now and managed to track down my old log on but never posted before. I have a dilema and I need some dog lovers advice, hence why i'm up at 1240 stalking dog forums. However I'm hoping all those people out there who love dogs and animals as much as I do can offer me some much needed advice.

So let me start off by a bit of background, I'm a 28 yo married female, no kids just me my hubby and my animals. .

3 and a half years ago i rescued my bc boy from the local animal shelter. He was on death row and is the absolute love of my life (other then the other half of course). I love him like a child and he is the best behaved dog ever! Very loyal very well trained and never had a problem with him at all. he has been with me through many ups and downs of the last 3 years. I can't explain how important he is to me.

Anyways the last 6 months or so he has started to dig in the yard almost every day and he lays around and hardly wants to play anymore. A few people I have spoken to said he might be bored. Me and my husband both work very long hours but I try walk him at least 3 - 4 times a week before work and spend a fair bit of my weekend with him. So for the past few months we have been tossing up getting a play mate for him to keep him entertained during the day when we are away, more like a pet for my dog then for us if you know what i mean.

So we have done shelter runs and kept an eye on the urgent rescues here but my dog is very particular about the types of dogs he gets along with, he likes my mums little dogs and SIL puppy but nothing as big or bigger then him. So we decided that if we did get another dog it would have to be a puppy so it could learn to be submissive.

So we have been looking for awhile and nothing has jumped out at us, but yesterday i went past a local pet store that sells pups from local backyard breeders, i trust the pet shop most days they let the dogs out of the glass windows in crates in the shop and I know someone who has had an "accident" with their dog and sold to them so I don't believe it is supporting any puppy farming or anything.

Anyways I went past the pet shop and in the window was a beautiful BC x girl who stood out to me and hubby. After about half hr in the shop playing with her and talkign to the girls about her temprement we decided to purchase her and take home for a playmate for my boy.

Things seemed to go ok yesterday, at first they seemed a bit equally scared of each other but they warmed up to each other and played nicely chasing each other around most of the day and seemed fine. Even with NYE last night all seemed to be going well. This morning when i got up all seemed well as well she kept following my boy around he let her crawl underneath him and stuff so i felt other then a few puppy issues (like playing in the water bowl) everything was going well. Because it was going so well me and hubby popped out for an hr or 2 to get some lunch and run some errands.

When i came home when i tried to pat my bc boy she jumped on him and he kept running away from me, then he growled at her and now she wont come near me either. Also when i tried to get them entertained with a game of chasing he flipped her on her back with his mouth around her growling, i think he was just putting her in her place and she is submissive of him but still was a bit scary. And finally when i was giving her a cuddle after i found a bite mark on her ear, dried up blood so had to be from earlier in the day. My boy also seems to have a confused/ sad look in his eyes.

Now i know it takes time for dogs to settle in together but have I done the right thing in getting a puppy. I love my boy to death and thought I was doing the right thing by him and I want to do the right thing by him because he has been the best most loyal friend, but have I made a mistake? The pet shop said if it doesn't work with my dog they are willing to take her back or I would be willing to find a home for her, there is noway she is going to a pound!

But on the other hand its not fair on the new puppy to ship her back or to a different home when she has done nothing at all wrong and as an animal lover I can't find it in my heart to do it but I don't want to do the wrong thing by my boy as well.

Sorry for the long post if you got through and are more wise on this subject please do shed some light. I'm sure things will look better in the morning when i'm not in bed having a panic attack. I do love dogs alot and I do want to do what is right by everybody.

Thanks guys xx

[Weasels]

Hi Missy Sorry you're having trouble with your dogs. It sounds like it would be best to keep them separated for now when you can't keep an eye on them, and spend time with them individually too so they don't feel the need to compete for your attention An in-home trainer is really the best option for dog-dog interactions because they can observe the more subtle communication between them.

Two things that jumped out at me - I really doubt that a walk 3-4 times a week is enough for a working dog in the prime of his life. I have kelpies both around 2 years old, they get at least an hour of off-leash running and fetch every morning, plus agility and herding classes weekly and the occasional afternoon walk. I feel this is the minimum they need to keep the crazy under control. Also lots of mental stimulation like training, treat toys and kongs, or play can make a big difference and can be better than exercise for tiring them out.

The other thing that I worried about is getting a dog for your dog - that's a lot of pressure on them both, and on you if you don't really want another dog. Many sheepdogs are more interested in their people than other dogs, and would probably respond better to more time with you. My dogs get along fine but aren't really best friends, they are mostly interested in what the humans are doing. If you do keep the new girl you will need to decide if you will still love her even if your boy dog isn't interested

[Esky the husky]

Sorry, but if you work a lot and were concerned about not spending a lot of time with your boy, where are you going to find the time to raise a puppy and a one from an unknown background boy you've got your work cut out

Best of luck with the new pup

[ridgiedidge]

Hi Missy...don't have a great deal of advice apart from they probably should have not been left alone when you were out!

I separated mine for some weeks as an older dog is far too rough to be left unsupervised with a puppy.

I am sure more there will lots of good advice re what to do, GL!

[Flaves]

i agree

keep them apart when you are not home at least until they are used to one another

supervise play time

spend time with each dog by themselves

good luck

[Simply Grand]

Missy don't panic! It's very early days and like you said things will seem more manageable in the morning. Hopefully the dogs are separate for tonight to keep them each safe, and you and they can get some sleep. I don't think you have a disaster on your hands but I do think some help will do your household good, good on you for asking

I'm about to go to sleep (after I go wrangle my barking 8 month old pup inside) but will check back tomorrow, just wanted to offer some reassurance in case you're still awake!

[indigirl]

Hiya, I have a multiple dog household, I breed and do rescue and am used to having new dogs join my pack. I NEVER leave a new dog unsupervised with my current dogs until i know 100% they are ok together. I dont leave a baby puppy unsupervised with older dogs EVER. Its too easy for the puppy to get hurt, as you have found out today. You need to give the puppy and your dog short supervised sessions together. Say 15-45mins with you right there supervising, several times a day. You can slowly increase the time they are together. If you need to go out then use a laundry/Xpen etc to keep puppy separated. NEVER leave them alone unsupervised until you are 100% sure the puppy is safe with your dog. Im not sure how old your puppy is but as a general rule I would not be leaving a puppy under say 4 months old unsupervised with an adult dog under any circumstances (except if the other dog was the pups mother). Depending on the puppy and her size/temperament etc it may take until she is 5 months or older until i felt she was 100% safe with my adult dog.

I have had one italian greyhound pup who was sturdy enough and had enough attitude and smarts, to be allowed to run free with my other IGs at 14 weeks. However he is the exception rather than the rule. Generally they are at least 4 months old.

My young boxer was not allowed to run freely with my bigger dogs until he was 4.5 months old. Sure it was a hassle keeping an active boxer pup separated with only supervised play sessions with my older dogs. However by keeping him separate i KNEW he was safe.

The puppy in my sig below, Ripley, was left unsupervised with older dogs for 30 mins while I was inside laying down. Ultimately this cost my puppy his life he was killed in a tragic freak accident in the backyard. Something im still trying to forgive myself for 3 years later. Rip was playing with a larger older foster dog, racing around madly and they crashed into the tap. The impact broke Ripley's rib and the rib pierced his heart killing him instantly. I did not witness the impact, however my belief is that the combined weight of both dogs is what caused the rib to snap as it did. So you can see I learned the hard way NEVER leave a young puppy unsupervised with an older dog EVER. Please learn from my mistake.

You need to give both the dogs time to get used to each other and adjust to the change. It may take a little while but they should be fine and will be besties before you know it

[mumof4girls]

Hiya, I have a multiple dog household, I breed and do rescue and am used to having new dogs join my pack. I NEVER leave a new dog unsupervised with my current dogs until i know 100% they are ok together. I dont leave a baby puppy unsupervised with older dogs EVER. Its too easy for the puppy to get hurt, as you have found out today. You need to give the puppy and your dog short supervised sessions together. Say 15-45mins with you right there supervising, several times a day. You can slowly increase the time they are together. If you need to go out then use a laundry/Xpen etc to keep puppy separated. NEVER leave them alone unsupervised until you are 100% sure the puppy is safe with your dog. Im not sure how old your puppy is but as a general rule I would not be leaving a puppy under say 4 months old unsupervised with an adult dog under any circumstances (except if the other dog was the pups mother). Depending on the puppy and her size/temperament etc it may take until she is 5 months or older until i felt she was 100% safe with my adult dog.

I have had one italian greyhound pup who was sturdy enough and had enough attitude and smarts, to be allowed to run free with my other IGs at 14 weeks. However he is the exception rather than the rule. Generally they are at least 4 months old.

My young boxer was not allowed to run freely with my bigger dogs until he was 4.5 months old. Sure it was a hassle keeping an active boxer pup separated with only supervised play sessions with my older dogs. However by keeping him separate i KNEW he was safe.

The puppy in my sig below, Ripley, was left unsupervised with older dogs for 30 mins while I was inside laying down. Ultimately this cost my puppy his life he was killed in a tragic freak accident in the backyard. Something im still trying to forgive myself for 3 years later. Rip was playing with a larger older foster dog, racing around madly and they crashed into the tap. The impact broke Ripley's rib and the rib pierced his heart killing him instantly. I did not witness the impact, however my belief is that the combined weight of both dogs is what caused the rib to snap as it did. So you can see I learned the hard way NEVER leave a young puppy unsupervised with an older dog EVER. Please learn from my mistake.

You need to give both the dogs time to get used to each other and adjust to the change. It may take a little while but they should be fine and will be besties before you know it

Oh Indigirl what a freak tragic accident :-(

To the OP good luck and I am sure you will tackle this issue with the advice you will get from this board:-)

[Zug Zug]

Indigirl that is awful. Try not to beat yourself up - from what you've said that could have happened even under supervision. It must have been an awful shock for you - such a tragic accident.

To the OP - I too have had some harsh experiences recently with a new addition to the family. Without telling you the whole story, I agree with the advice of others - separate them, give them short visits together, and don't leave them together while you are out. The safety question is very serious (as I found out recently) and you need to be more careful about this than you might initially think.

It is good that she is being submissive, but it does sound like something happened while you were out that has upset them both. You will need to very gently give them a chance to get over that, and give them loads and loads of time to adjust to each other's company.

I would strongly suggest the use of crates etc. to manage the comings and goings inside (assuming you bring them inside as well?)

[Christina]

Indigirl has given you good advice.

The biggest mistake people make is to put the 2 dogs together too soon. You are bringing another dog, a very young one, into your dogs territory & personal space. Go slowly.

My dogs are great & love it when one has puppies but I never let them run loose with the adult dogs. Introductions are on my lap or around the outside of the pen.

I have had a few young adult dogs come to me & don't leave them unsupervised for the 1st 3 months. Pups are not left with adults until 6 months.

Better safe than sorry. Seperate & supervise, the pup may get fearful or damaged if it does not learn submission quick & some just don't.

[persephone]

Hi..

Oh.. Ok.

I was going to suggest you have your older dog thoroughly health checked... a dog that loses its playfulness could be unwell.. rather than bored.

Digging holes..especially if he lies in them could mean he is trying to get cool....

A bored dog , IMO would be more likely to want to play lots..be racing around, chewing, jumping.... finding things to do...

I feel you have done the impulse buy thing for the wrong reason ... Buying a puppy for another dog when you are not sure if that's what he needs .

Your dog may be much happier/content /interested if his favourite human spent 20 min each day doing tricks etc with him ;)

[Animal House]

If you got the pup purely as a playmate for your unhappy dog, it was a mistake, please return her.

You don't have time (daily) for your current dog, so you won't have time for a puppy (another working dog breed) as well.

I agree that a thorough vet check should be in order for your current dog, BC's are high energy, so him laying around/digging holes to lay in could be a sign of illness.

If he gets the all clear, you need to make time every day for his needs. A 5 -10 minute training session to keep his mind tired out, would be really great twice a day, in addition to a daily walk (get up an hour earlier to fit it in).

[oakway]

If you got the pup purely as a playmate for your unhappy dog, it was a mistake, please return her.

You don't have time (daily) for your current dog, so you won't have time for a puppy (another working dog breed) as well.

I agree that a thorough vet check should be in order for your current dog, BC's are high energy, so him laying around/digging holes to lay in could be a sign of illness.

If he gets the all clear, you need to make time every day for his needs. A 5 -10 minute training session to keep his mind tired out, would be really great twice a day, in addition to a daily walk (get up an hour earlier to fit it in).

The above and the pound sounds better to me than a pet shop window.

[juice]

I agree with the last posts, an older dog suddenly digging sounds like it needs more looking into.

I walk my dally for over an hour offlead twice a day ,everyday, and he is 12!

You are also assuming as you dog is fussy about which dogs he likes, that a pup will grow to be submissive around him, not so, especailly a female, if she grows up to be the dominant one how will he go?

He sounds like he just wants more of your attention, and giving it to the new pup may fuel the fire more.

You need to think about wether this pup is right for all of you before she gets past her cute sellable stage, and just becomes another pound stat.

[lovemesideways]

Wow.... well the advice you have been given already sums it up nicely..

Am I the only one thinking "Obvious Troll is very Obvious"?

[rebelsquest]

Wow.... well the advice you have been given already sums it up nicely..

Am I the only one thinking "Obvious Troll is very Obvious"?

:D. I feel better now, I thought I was the only cynical one on here .

OP, I agree with the advice everyone else has given. You need to have a good hard think about if you want another dog, and have time for another dog. If there is any doubt, I believe you need to return the pup, as it is not fair on ANY of you (two and four legged).

[Greytmate]

Hi..

Oh.. Ok.

I was going to suggest you have your older dog thoroughly health checked... a dog that loses its playfulness could be unwell.. rather than bored.

Digging holes..especially if he lies in them could mean he is trying to get cool....

A bored dog , IMO would be more likely to want to play lots..be racing around, chewing, jumping.... finding things to do...

I feel you have done the impulse buy thing for the wrong reason ... Buying a puppy for another dog when you are not sure if that's what he needs .

Your dog may be much happier/content /interested if his favourite human spent 20 min each day doing tricks etc with him ;)

I agree Persephone. When my old dog Sam got cancer he started digging holes to lie in and became less interested in playing. That is the first thing I thought of when reading the original post.

Aside from that I think a big mistake was made when purchasing the pup (more than one mistake). It is wrong to think that a pup can "learn to be submissive".

I don't think the OP has spent much time here at all before buying a pup. It is best that the pup goes back to the shop as soon as possible and the OP concentrates on the current dog.

[aussielover]

OK so i have been reading these forums for years now and managed to track down my old log on but never posted before. I have a dilema and I need some dog lovers advice, hence why i'm up at 1240 stalking dog forums. However I'm hoping all those people out there who love dogs and animals as much as I do can offer me some much needed advice.

So let me start off by a bit of background, I'm a 28 yo married female, no kids just me my hubby and my animals. .

3 and a half years ago i rescued my bc boy from the local animal shelter. He was on death row and is the absolute love of my life (other then the other half of course). I love him like a child and he is the best behaved dog ever! Very loyal very well trained and never had a problem with him at all. he has been with me through many ups and downs of the last 3 years. I can't explain how important he is to me.

Anyways the last 6 months or so he has started to dig in the yard almost every day and he lays around and hardly wants to play anymore. A few people I have spoken to said he might be bored. Me and my husband both work very long hours but I try walk him at least 3 - 4 times a week before work and spend a fair bit of my weekend with him. So for the past few months we have been tossing up getting a play mate for him to keep him entertained during the day when we are away, more like a pet for my dog then for us if you know what i mean.

So we have done shelter runs and kept an eye on the urgent rescues here but my dog is very particular about the types of dogs he gets along with, he likes my mums little dogs and SIL puppy but nothing as big or bigger then him. So we decided that if we did get another dog it would have to be a puppy so it could learn to be submissive.

So we have been looking for awhile and nothing has jumped out at us, but yesterday i went past a local pet store that sells pups from local backyard breeders, i trust the pet shop most days they let the dogs out of the glass windows in crates in the shop and I know someone who has had an "accident" with their dog and sold to them so I don't believe it is supporting any puppy farming or anything.

Anyways I went past the pet shop and in the window was a beautiful BC x girl who stood out to me and hubby. After about half hr in the shop playing with her and talkign to the girls about her temprement we decided to purchase her and take home for a playmate for my boy.

Things seemed to go ok yesterday, at first they seemed a bit equally scared of each other but they warmed up to each other and played nicely chasing each other around most of the day and seemed fine. Even with NYE last night all seemed to be going well. This morning when i got up all seemed well as well she kept following my boy around he let her crawl underneath him and stuff so i felt other then a few puppy issues (like playing in the water bowl) everything was going well. Because it was going so well me and hubby popped out for an hr or 2 to get some lunch and run some errands.

When i came home when i tried to pat my bc boy she jumped on him and he kept running away from me, then he growled at her and now she wont come near me either. Also when i tried to get them entertained with a game of chasing he flipped her on her back with his mouth around her growling, i think he was just putting her in her place and she is submissive of him but still was a bit scary. And finally when i was giving her a cuddle after i found a bite mark on her ear, dried up blood so had to be from earlier in the day. My boy also seems to have a confused/ sad look in his eyes.

Now i know it takes time for dogs to settle in together but have I done the right thing in getting a puppy. I love my boy to death and thought I was doing the right thing by him and I want to do the right thing by him because he has been the best most loyal friend, but have I made a mistake? The pet shop said if it doesn't work with my dog they are willing to take her back or I would be willing to find a home for her, there is noway she is going to a pound!

But on the other hand its not fair on the new puppy to ship her back or to a different home when she has done nothing at all wrong and as an animal lover I can't find it in my heart to do it but I don't want to do the wrong thing by my boy as well.

Sorry for the long post if you got through and are more wise on this subject please do shed some light. I'm sure things will look better in the morning when i'm not in bed having a panic attack. I do love dogs alot and I do want to do what is right by everybody.

Thanks guys xx

If this in an honest post-

I think you know what you should do...

You got the puppy for the older dog which tbh is not a great reason imo.

You don't have time to deal with one working breed dog, let alone 2.

3-4 walks a week is not near enough stimulation and exercise for a border collie (unless he is a particularly lazy and laid back one).

The puppy will take up the limited time you have available to your dogs, and your older dog will end up with less human attention unless you make a huge effort to train and exercise them separately which would likely take up 2hrs + per day.

I think you should return the puppy to the pet store or rehome it yourself. It is still young and cute enough to get another home relatively quickly. I think if you are honest with yourself you will see that you are not the best home to have 2 working breed dogs (unless you make a huge effort to changing your current routine re exercise and training) and she may be better off with someone who can give her more time for training and exercise. If you feel you can commit to changing your lifestyle to better suit the dogs, then you can conisder keeping her, but you make it sound like it would be very difficult due to work etc.

I think you should also take your dog to the vet and get him checked out, as others have said a decrease in energy levels is more likely to be a health issue rather than a boredom issue.

If he gets the all clear, I think you should aim to walk him every day, do some training everyday (10-15 mins is fine to start with) and at least play fetch/tug or whatever he likes for 30 mins every day. You could also look into activities like agility, obedience, tracking etc to keep his mind entertained.

Good luck with your decision.

[Greytmate]

I don't think the OP should rehome the dog herself. There is no reason to think she would be better able to place the dog in a home than a pet shop. At least the pet shop has potential customers that will see the pup right now.

For every day that the pup remains where it is it is becoming less desirable, as it is missing out on socialisation time with another family, and it isn't getting any cuter.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Well if it doesn't work out, you will find that petshops don't take their dogs back.

When will people learn that buying from petshops IS the wrong thing to do. Not going to lecture you but just have a look on the internet, in particular do a search on "Oscar's Law". No matter how hard we try, the word is not getting out to the masses but it will, eventually.

In the meantime, you have taken on a much bigger problem to solve another problem and that's never a good idea. You need to make time to exercise any dog properly - 3-4 times a week isn't going to cut it.

I used to get up at 5am so I could walk my dogs for up to an hour. Between 6 and 7 I was getting ready to leave for work.

I got home around 7 and the first thing I used to do was walk my dogs. I'm not saying it was easy and there is more than just one adult in your household so please, pull your collective fingers out and start exercising and interacting with your dog. Don't leave it to a tiny puppy to do your work for you and you'll also need to spend a lot more time now you have a puppy.

Grrrrrrrrr.