dancinbcs Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 I have never had a dog that is fearful of storms or loud noises but I do make lots of noise around my puppies and my OH will shoot rabbits close to the house so mine are definitely not gun shy either. Would I breed with a storm phobic dog No Definitely not ( It is not within my breed standard either ). My son had a Stafford that was extremely afraid of storms and fire works, she was the worst I have ever seen. One time even though she was medicated she was so badly traumatized in a storm she caught her canines in her heavy steel crate (she actually bent the steel bars). It was not long after that that their vet suggested she be PTS because of her phobia and I am afraid to say I agreed with him. This is the sort of dog I am talking about. The ones that are likely to damage themselves or their surroundings if not kept under constant supervision. I know of one show dog (not my breed) that managed to squeeze through a trailer window and jump a fence and was found days later many kms away. I have also heard of a BC dying from a heart attack during a storm when left at a boarding kennel many years ago. Some dogs like to be in a confined area like a crate or under the bed during a storm but are not panic stricken like the dogs I am talking about here. I don't think you could seriously consider breeding with a bitch like that just due to the possibility of a storm while heavily pregnant or with newborns. Using a dog would be a different matter and would depend on whether you felt such traits are passed on genetically. My jury is still out on that one. I mean does a chronic barker produce chronic barkers? Clearly many a storm fearing dog has had offspring with no such qualms. It would really depend on what superior qualities weighed out against storm phobia in the male dog. I don't use chronic barkers either or dogs that get carsick. I believe all these traits are strongly inherited especially barking in the two breeds I am involved with. Not every offspring will inherit the problems but a substantial number will. Staying clear of dogs with these problems means I have never had to worry about any of them. Interesting about the car sickness. I used to have a GSD (desexed so not a question of using him for breeding) that got car sick as a young dog but overcame it. I used to give him ginger and it settled his tummy, eventually I stopped giving it to him and found he didn't need it any longer as it turned out. So if you had a bitch that got car sick as a young dog but was over it by say three years of age would she be used for breeding or excluded? I've never had any dog get carsick after the first two rides as a baby at the absolute most but I would be wary of using a dog that needed treatment to overcome it, if the dog was taken out in the car regularly. The problem with assessing this is of course some dogs don't get taken out enough to get used to it so it can be hard to tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) double post Edited January 2, 2012 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Carsickness can be linked to simple vitamin deficiency, B6 in particular. If it was considered genetic, maybe it's a case of that line not utilising available vitamins correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 If I knew the parents of the dogs I was considering using also had anxiety problems of the kind that would make companion dogs hard to live with then I would not use them. The things I'm thinking of are storm phobias, separation anxiety, very low ability to cope with novel situations, issues with cars/vacuum cleaners/whatever. From what I've observed, a lot of iffy behaviour is genetic in origin. The other factor for me is that autoimmune issues are an issue in my breed and they can be thyroid related. Thyroid problems can manifest in behaviour problems. While it's treatable, I'd consider it another warning sign not just for breeding iffy companions, but for potential thyroid and immune system issues. I read something on an Afghan forum the other day that I thought was a useful summary: It is a continuum. One the one end are the bomb proof dogs and on the other the total spooks, and the majority somewhere in the middle. The genetically bomb proof can go through all kinds of trauma and come out smiling, the total freaks cannot be changed and those in the middle can be made or marred by circumstance. I don't think there's any justification for breeding from the total spooks, no matter how pretty they might be. Once you have lived with an anxious dog and a laid back dog, the difference is like night and day. This pretty well sums it up for me too. Dogs with major phobias to me are as useless for breeding as aggressive dogs and I wish more breeders would consider this when breeding. I love having bomb proof dogs and can handle those that need a little work to boost confidence but any with irrational panicked fear over anything are out for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 No I would not breed from a dog with that level of anxiety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 No I would not breed from a dog with that level of anxiety I don't think many would consider using any dog with anxiety to the level of self harm. Scared during storms and fireworks is one thing....being manic and inconsolable and self destructive is entirely another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The nature vs nurture debate. I guess it may be difficult to tell whether it's genetic, or whether a pup you've run on is learning the behaviour of the dam? I was lucky my litter last year was born in the wet season, storms every other day/night and even a cyclone! So they had no choice but to get used to those sounds and the pups I've run on are really good with it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) The nature vs nurture debate. I guess it may be difficult to tell whether it's genetic, or whether a pup you've run on is learning the behaviour of the dam? I was lucky my litter last year was born in the wet season, storms every other day/night and even a cyclone! So they had no choice but to get used to those sounds and the pups I've run on are really good with it now. Also I believe when it comes to neurotic behaviour some owners are shocking "enablers" I meet a woman once with a small terrier when out walking my GSD. She quickly picked him up when she saw me and by way of explaiantion said "He's terrified of big dogs"!! "I wonder why?" was my reply. I've also meet owners who when there is a storm make such a big Whoha and fuss about it that the poor animal thinks OMG what's going to happen? Subsequently getting worse each time. Edited January 4, 2012 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Yep you are right and I am thinking that is why, across a few different breeds, that I am yet to have a dog with a fear of storms because it is business as usual so none of them seem to be too worried about the whole deal. I have seen dogs who have been made into neurotic messes because of their owners reactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Yes, you guys raise a good point with how the owner's behaviour can influence the dog's behaviour. "Oh, last time this happened my mum/dad fussed over me and gave me cuddles and treats because I did (behaviour) so I will do it again to produce the same result" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Yes, you guys raise a good point with how the owner's behaviour can influence the dog's behaviour. "Oh, last time this happened my mum/dad fussed over me and gave me cuddles and treats because I did (behaviour) so I will do it again to produce the same result" This should not be the case with an experienced breeder . . . who should have a baseline of experience raising dogs and seeing the outcomes. There is genetic research being done on this . . . unless they have folded for lack of funding. See http://www.k9behavioralgenetics.net/updates.php One thing they found is that Border Collies are more prone to noise phobias than GSD's or Aussies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Acknowledging that VERY few of the BCs we'd see around Albury are from registered breeders I will confess that it is a breed I have noticed far more storm phobia's in than any other breed. In at least 50% of surrenders of BC's it was due to storm phobia. I have also seen more BCs in our area in storms BUT that has to be balanced by the fact that they are a very, very popular breed on the Border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Acknowledging that VERY few of the BCs we'd see around Albury are from registered breeders I will confess that it is a breed I have noticed far more storm phobia's in than any other breed. In at least 50% of surrenders of BC's it was due to storm phobia. I have also seen more BCs in our area in storms BUT that has to be balanced by the fact that they are a very, very popular breed on the Border. The ones I have known of with problems tend to be related but none of mine and most of my friends dogs have ever been worried by storms and most don't care about fireworks either. Quite a few seem to like to run around and bark at the thunder in a storm, but very few that I have known have really been scared. I noticed an add on BC Rescue that stated the dog "like most Border Collies" was worried by storms. This had me puzzled because I have never seen it as a common breed trait at all. At out last specialty show in Oct we had one of the biggest storms I have ever been in. Really loud thunder, lightening and so much rain in half an hour that Castle Hill was under 6" of water. We suspended the show until the storm stopped then continued under cover and none of the dogs seemed particularly stressed by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I don't doubt that it is rare in those bred by registered breeders but sadly that doesn't correlate with what we saw through rescue with the BCs that came into the pound which were most likely farm bred or byb and around here they are the bulk of BCs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Yes, you guys raise a good point with how the owner's behaviour can influence the dog's behaviour. "Oh, last time this happened my mum/dad fussed over me and gave me cuddles and treats because I did (behaviour) so I will do it again to produce the same result" Yep, I've seen it with kids too. At three year old kinder my son was a wriggle bum and wouldn't sit still at story time so what did the teacher do....sat him on her lap, he had the best seat in the house and could see all the pictures easily!!!! Do you think it made him sit quietly next story time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I don't doubt that it is rare in those bred by registered breeders but sadly that doesn't correlate with what we saw through rescue with the BCs that came into the pound which were most likely farm bred or byb and around here they are the bulk of BCs. I think pounds can have a detrimental effect on even a dog who wouldn't be fussed by a storm at home. It's all too unsettling at times. And then there's the barking.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I don't doubt that it is rare in those bred by registered breeders but sadly that doesn't correlate with what we saw through rescue with the BCs that came into the pound which were most likely farm bred or byb and around here they are the bulk of BCs. I think pounds can have a detrimental effect on even a dog who wouldn't be fussed by a storm at home. It's all too unsettling at times. And then there's the barking.... Should have been clearer - you see them come in following a storm/fireworks at a higher percentage AND they were surrendered for that fear more commonly. Again I will stress, these were very unlikely to be registered BCs - more the working lines & farm bred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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