dancinbcs Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 As the title states. Do you still breed from dogs that have intense inborn phobias about storms and fireworks? I know it is possible for dogs to get a fright by something like being left out in a bad storm and then become phobic but most that become frantic with storms and fireworks are born like that. I am not referring to the many dogs that bark at thunder or try to catch it but will settle down if brought inside or penned. The dogs I am referring to are the true phobic quivering wrecks that are so terrified they are likely to harm themselves or damage property in an attempt to escape. I have never had a Border Collie that was really bothered by storms or fireworks and now my new Jap Spitz puppy is the same. Just slept through it all last night, yet on here it seems to be the norm for so many dogs to react badly. I believe it is a strongly inherited trait and will not breed from a dog with this problem. There are plenty of successful show dogs of all breeds out there that do react badly but I heard anyone else say they didn't breed from the dog for that reason. This is one of the hardest temperament problems for owners to deal with so why do other breeders not see it as important? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I'm fortunate in not having any dogs fearful of fireworks or storms. Lucky as we annually have the National Fireworks Industry display just down the road which would be very hard otherwise!! Ours tend to lie out in the yard and watch them! I personally wouldn't breed from a fearful dog, it wouldn't fit with the standard for my breed anyway. Some dogs may have a learned phobia rather than a fearful temperament, which may be different. But unless you were 100% sure on that I would still look elsewhere for breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 As the title states. Do you still breed from dogs that have intense inborn phobias about storms and fireworks? I know it is possible for dogs to get a fright by something like being left out in a bad storm and then become phobic but most that become frantic with storms and fireworks are born like that. I am not referring to the many dogs that bark at thunder or try to catch it but will settle down if brought inside or penned. The dogs I am referring to are the true phobic quivering wrecks that are so terrified they are likely to harm themselves or damage property in an attempt to escape. I have never had a Border Collie that was really bothered by storms or fireworks and now my new Jap Spitz puppy is the same. Just slept through it all last night, yet on here it seems to be the norm for so many dogs to react badly. I believe it is a strongly inherited trait and will not breed from a dog with this problem. There are plenty of successful show dogs of all breeds out there that do react badly but I heard anyone else say they didn't breed from the dog for that reason. This is one of the hardest temperament problems for owners to deal with so why do other breeders not see it as important? I dont believe I would because I have lived with a Storm Phobic dog. BUT at the same time, because of my prior experience I have a number of 'sounds CD' that I begin playing when pups are two weeks old, and continue playing up until they leave. So with that kind of preparation I would hope that even a dog with a slight predisposition toward being noise phobic will have had enough priming to never become truly phobic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) We had so many storms leading up to Christmas I do believe my dogs are now "over thunder and lighting" after a couple of consecutive storms last week they didn't bat an eyelid by the time we had the third one hit. Last night they barked when the fireworks started but it was more of an alert, they weren't scared and when told to hush they stopped. I have a bitch who usually pants excessively during storms but her daughter doesn't give a hoot. But even the "panic panter" didn't give a rats last night. Clearly her discomfort in storms wasn't passed on to her offspring. I also believe that if we "feed" the fear it will grow and manifest in the animal. I'm sure many an owner has just made the whole storm thing worse. Edited January 1, 2012 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have one storm phobic dog and previously owned his half-brother who was not storm-phobic. I've always attributed Mac's phobia to the fact that he was born with corneal dystrophy and can't see properly. He simply pants and barks - doesn't try to escape etc. The bitch that I have a litter with at home at the moment arrived at my house frightened of the vacuum cleaner - no idea why. Her half sister that I also own isn't frightened of it. I have made sure that I vacuum around the pups ONLY when she is outside so that she can't teach them that fear. She isn't frightened of anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have never had a dog that is fearful of storms or loud noises but I do make lots of noise around my puppies and my OH will shoot rabbits close to the house so mine are definitely not gun shy either. Would I breed with a storm phobic dog No Definitely not ( It is not within my breed standard either ). My son had a Stafford that was extremely afraid of storms and fire works, she was the worst I have ever seen. One time even though she was medicated she was so badly traumatized in a storm she caught her canines in her heavy steel crate (she actually bent the steel bars). It was not long after that that their vet suggested she be PTS because of her phobia and I am afraid to say I agreed with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have never had a dog that is fearful of storms or loud noises but I do make lots of noise around my puppies and my OH will shoot rabbits close to the house so mine are definitely not gun shy either. Would I breed with a storm phobic dog No Definitely not ( It is not within my breed standard either ). My son had a Stafford that was extremely afraid of storms and fire works, she was the worst I have ever seen. One time even though she was medicated she was so badly traumatized in a storm she caught her canines in her heavy steel crate (she actually bent the steel bars). It was not long after that that their vet suggested she be PTS because of her phobia and I am afraid to say I agreed with him. Gosh Fordogs that poor staffy did sound like she had an extreme phobia. Was it just storms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilaryo Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 In a word "yes". I have a soon to be 8 year old bitch with storm and firework phobias which only started a couple of years ago. She is OK as long as she can hide in a cupboard or under a bed. Would be different if she was a fearful dog in general! None of her kids display any fear related behaviours and her first litter pups are now 3.5 years and the second litter are now over 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have never had a storm phobic dog. Until yesterday. The however is our deaf partially blind old Stafford so I am thinking that is more of an old age related thing and he was unsettled and pacing but not panting or panicing. If they got slightly unsettled but were otherwise okay in the anxiety stakes then yeh maybe. If they went right off and would damage themselves then no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I think by "phobic" we would be meaning dogs that go completely frantic, injure themsleves and still continue, etc etc. My mum had an old rescue GR, chronically overweight - super, super placid and gentle. But a hint of thunder and she would be absolutely raving. The worst she did was climb a six foot timber fence when mum wasn't home (honestly she was HEAVY and wouldn't have jumped even up at someone, even for a treat!). She tore open her leg and took off over the countryside. She was found three days and several kilometres later, still hiding in a drain. She was scarily phobic of storms. Nothing could get through to her. We never had her around fireworks which could have been a good thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 No, the Stafford went absolutely crazy with fireworks as well as storms, she was so bad even my grandchildren were also storm phobic. Thankfully the grand children are fine about storms now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 No, the Stafford went absolutely crazy with fireworks as well as storms, she was so bad even my grandchildren were also storm phobic. Thankfully the grand children are fine about storms now. I guess the poor kiddies wonder what was so terrible about storms that the dog reacted that way. My dad used to always take me out onto the verandah to watch the storm after it had passed overhead and was heading away. I have fond memories of our storm watching and love lightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have never had a dog that is fearful of storms or loud noises but I do make lots of noise around my puppies and my OH will shoot rabbits close to the house so mine are definitely not gun shy either. Would I breed with a storm phobic dog No Definitely not ( It is not within my breed standard either ). My son had a Stafford that was extremely afraid of storms and fire works, she was the worst I have ever seen. One time even though she was medicated she was so badly traumatized in a storm she caught her canines in her heavy steel crate (she actually bent the steel bars). It was not long after that that their vet suggested she be PTS because of her phobia and I am afraid to say I agreed with him. This is the sort of dog I am talking about. The ones that are likely to damage themselves or their surroundings if not kept under constant supervision. I know of one show dog (not my breed) that managed to squeeze through a trailer window and jump a fence and was found days later many kms away. I have also heard of a BC dying from a heart attack during a storm when left at a boarding kennel many years ago. Some dogs like to be in a confined area like a crate or under the bed during a storm but are not panic stricken like the dogs I am talking about here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have never had a dog that is fearful of storms or loud noises but I do make lots of noise around my puppies and my OH will shoot rabbits close to the house so mine are definitely not gun shy either. Would I breed with a storm phobic dog No Definitely not ( It is not within my breed standard either ). My son had a Stafford that was extremely afraid of storms and fire works, she was the worst I have ever seen. One time even though she was medicated she was so badly traumatized in a storm she caught her canines in her heavy steel crate (she actually bent the steel bars). It was not long after that that their vet suggested she be PTS because of her phobia and I am afraid to say I agreed with him. This is the sort of dog I am talking about. The ones that are likely to damage themselves or their surroundings if not kept under constant supervision. I know of one show dog (not my breed) that managed to squeeze through a trailer window and jump a fence and was found days later many kms away. I have also heard of a BC dying from a heart attack during a storm when left at a boarding kennel many years ago. Some dogs like to be in a confined area like a crate or under the bed during a storm but are not panic stricken like the dogs I am talking about here. I don't think you could seriously consider breeding with a bitch like that just due to the possibility of a storm while heavily pregnant or with newborns. Using a dog would be a different matter and would depend on whether you felt such traits are passed on genetically. My jury is still out on that one. I mean does a chronic barker produce chronic barkers? Clearly many a storm fearing dog has had offspring with no such qualms. It would really depend on what superior qualities weighed out against storm phobia in the male dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have never had a dog that is fearful of storms or loud noises but I do make lots of noise around my puppies and my OH will shoot rabbits close to the house so mine are definitely not gun shy either. Would I breed with a storm phobic dog No Definitely not ( It is not within my breed standard either ). My son had a Stafford that was extremely afraid of storms and fire works, she was the worst I have ever seen. One time even though she was medicated she was so badly traumatized in a storm she caught her canines in her heavy steel crate (she actually bent the steel bars). It was not long after that that their vet suggested she be PTS because of her phobia and I am afraid to say I agreed with him. This is the sort of dog I am talking about. The ones that are likely to damage themselves or their surroundings if not kept under constant supervision. I know of one show dog (not my breed) that managed to squeeze through a trailer window and jump a fence and was found days later many kms away. I have also heard of a BC dying from a heart attack during a storm when left at a boarding kennel many years ago. Some dogs like to be in a confined area like a crate or under the bed during a storm but are not panic stricken like the dogs I am talking about here. I don't think you could seriously consider breeding with a bitch like that just due to the possibility of a storm while heavily pregnant or with newborns. Using a dog would be a different matter and would depend on whether you felt such traits are passed on genetically. My jury is still out on that one. I mean does a chronic barker produce chronic barkers? Clearly many a storm fearing dog has had offspring with no such qualms. It would really depend on what superior qualities weighed out against storm phobia in the male dog. I don't use chronic barkers either or dogs that get carsick. I believe all these traits are strongly inherited especially barking in the two breeds I am involved with. Not every offspring will inherit the problems but a substantial number will. Staying clear of dogs with these problems means I have never had to worry about any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have never had a dog that is fearful of storms or loud noises but I do make lots of noise around my puppies and my OH will shoot rabbits close to the house so mine are definitely not gun shy either. Would I breed with a storm phobic dog No Definitely not ( It is not within my breed standard either ). My son had a Stafford that was extremely afraid of storms and fire works, she was the worst I have ever seen. One time even though she was medicated she was so badly traumatized in a storm she caught her canines in her heavy steel crate (she actually bent the steel bars). It was not long after that that their vet suggested she be PTS because of her phobia and I am afraid to say I agreed with him. This is the sort of dog I am talking about. The ones that are likely to damage themselves or their surroundings if not kept under constant supervision. I know of one show dog (not my breed) that managed to squeeze through a trailer window and jump a fence and was found days later many kms away. I have also heard of a BC dying from a heart attack during a storm when left at a boarding kennel many years ago. Some dogs like to be in a confined area like a crate or under the bed during a storm but are not panic stricken like the dogs I am talking about here. I don't think you could seriously consider breeding with a bitch like that just due to the possibility of a storm while heavily pregnant or with newborns. Using a dog would be a different matter and would depend on whether you felt such traits are passed on genetically. My jury is still out on that one. I mean does a chronic barker produce chronic barkers? Clearly many a storm fearing dog has had offspring with no such qualms. It would really depend on what superior qualities weighed out against storm phobia in the male dog. I don't use chronic barkers either or dogs that get carsick. I believe all these traits are strongly inherited especially barking in the two breeds I am involved with. Not every offspring will inherit the problems but a substantial number will. Staying clear of dogs with these problems means I have never had to worry about any of them. Interesting about the car sickness. I used to have a GSD (desexed so not a question of using him for breeding) that got car sick as a young dog but overcame it. I used to give him ginger and it settled his tummy, eventually I stopped giving it to him and found he didn't need it any longer as it turned out. So if you had a bitch that got car sick as a young dog but was over it by say three years of age would she be used for breeding or excluded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have gun dogs and I would not breed from a gun shy dog without a damn good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) I have gun dogs and I would not breed from a gun shy dog without a damn good reason. Makes sense. Could a poor introduction to firearms be a good reason? Would getting the dog used to the sound of gunfire to a certain extent suffice? Edited January 2, 2012 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 If I knew the parents of the dogs I was considering using also had anxiety problems of the kind that would make companion dogs hard to live with then I would not use them. The things I'm thinking of are storm phobias, separation anxiety, very low ability to cope with novel situations, issues with cars/vacuum cleaners/whatever. From what I've observed, a lot of iffy behaviour is genetic in origin. The other factor for me is that autoimmune issues are an issue in my breed and they can be thyroid related. Thyroid problems can manifest in behaviour problems. While it's treatable, I'd consider it another warning sign not just for breeding iffy companions, but for potential thyroid and immune system issues. I read something on an Afghan forum the other day that I thought was a useful summary: It is a continuum. One the one end are the bomb proof dogs and on the other the total spooks, and the majority somewhere in the middle. The genetically bomb proof can go through all kinds of trauma and come out smiling, the total freaks cannot be changed and those in the middle can be made or marred by circumstance. I don't think there's any justification for breeding from the total spooks, no matter how pretty they might be. Once you have lived with an anxious dog and a laid back dog, the difference is like night and day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) Agree with SSM. Having lived with a fruitcake when it came to storms/fireworks etc I would not wish that on anyone. Not only stressful for the dog, but upsetting for the whole household. When it comes to a dogs capacity to function and work, I would not be breeding from a dog at that end of the scale. A dog with that kind of phobia can't do its job (just as important for a Livestock Guardian to not freak out in the paddock during a storm and leave the flock to its fate as it is for a gundog not to be gunshy). Seeking shelter during a storm though is not necessarily a sign of fear. It may simply be good sense. Big difference between a dog that does this and a dog that goes nuts to the point of possible self harm. Agree on considering the effect of thyroid issues too as this can definitely have an impact on behaviour (the fruitcake dog we had did have thyroid problems but behaviour continued even when thyroid was regulated with medication). The effect that a bitch with such a phobia could have on pups while raising them is also a thought? Would they also learn from her if there were storms while she was raising the pups? Would this help to tip pups 'over the edge' towards storm phobia if they were in any way predisposed to it genetically? Edited January 1, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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