Training A Dumbell Adversive Dog To Retrieve

[Canine Coach]

I have a new Obedience student

She has a large 2 year old, working breed, that is normally, naturally, high in prey drive

The dog hgained a CCD and Novice title, gained with minium scores

The owners goal is to get a CDX title on the dog

In our 1st lesson The dog appeared aversive to the dumbell

The owner said she retrieve training by forcing the dog to hold and give a dumbell

In the 2 lessons we have had I have asked the owner to say "yes" and immediately reward with food, 1st a sniff then a nose poke, at the dumbell

The dog had only mild high food drive

By the 2nd lesson the dog was poking the dumbell but made no attempt to chase pick it up or carry it, even when played with/teased

The owner has said they FEED the dog BEFORE training and did not follow my instructions NOt to feed the dog ANYTHING for "free"

The dog is now poking the dumbell on the ground but sometimes just stands there staring into space until I kick the dumbell with my foot

The dog does not respond to a keep away /play drive behavior and does not seem to have high "object possession drive", at least towards the dumbell

I am asking for recommendations for a dumbell retrieve program, for this dog

[Kavik]

I think they need to rethink a lot of their training. If the other titles were gained with minimum scores, they need to evaluate what they are doing, if they want to go further. Their reward system, how they work with the dog, their relationship with the dog, how well the dog is working. It looks like the problem is not necessarily the retrieve.

Obviously they need to stop feeding the dog before training if they want to use food rewards.

Not sure what effect force fetching will have on the dog. Here is a good site for shaping the retrieve with a clicker. It is useful if the dog already knows how to offer behaviours for shaping first, if not probably best to do that first with some tricks and then come back to the retrieve. If they don't understand shaping it will take longer and be a frustrating process.

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kavik

[The Spotted Devil]

I would shape the retrieve with a completely different object and then generalise it to other objects and the dumbbell.

To be honest, the dog sounds easier to train than the owner...

[Boots42]

""I can train any dog in 5 minutes. It's training the owner that takes longer."

-Barbara Woodhouse"

Relevant, perhaps?

[Jigsaw]

Shirley Chong method breaks it down nicely. I'd try other objects first before introducing the dumbbell. You could try a piece of dowel or toilet roll, cardboard tube or even a soft toy. Sometimes dogs will not go after an item unless it moves, so sometimes you're better offering the dumbbell from your hand initially. Make sure it's at a height that is comfortable for the dog so it doesn't have to stretch it's neck up. You can use a line on a toy to introduce movement so the dog gains interest and will chase and pick up if this may interest the dog. Some dogs also have the chase or run out but not the retrieve, they'll go out after the toy/dumbbell but not bring it back. But it does sound like you have an owner who is not willing to listen. Might be time to give them a bit of a talking to about achieving goals.

[wuffles]

It took me at least 6 months to clicker train a dumbbell retrieve on my girl.

I used Shirley Chong's method loosely starting with giving it to her from my hands (there is no way she would have picked it up off the ground at first). I was very stuck on the hold and couldn't get her to hold the damn thing for more than a second before spitting it at me. It took us months to get past that, and in the end it was a simple trick from a DOLer that fixed it. It's about finding what works for the individual dog. My girl also prefers a wooden dumbbell to plastic.

Then I had issues with her enjoyment of the exercise - picking up a dumbbell was NOT a rewarding experience for her. She hated picking it up. So I made it the most fun exercise ever. BIG BIG rewards. Her favourite things just for picking up the dumbbell - jackpots, food throwing, jumping around, allowing her to climb on me on the ground. Only 2-3 repetitions per session - it became our 'special' exercise. And now she just adores the dumbbell! Retrieving is still not her thing, but the dumbbell itself is very rewarding to her now. Her retrieves are quite nice

[wuffles]

I think they need to rethink a lot of their training. If the other titles were gained with minimum scores, they need to evaluate what they are doing, if they want to go further. Their reward system, how they work with the dog, their relationship with the dog, how well the dog is working. It looks like the problem is not necessarily the retrieve.

This too From what I have seen around here, minimum scores in CCD and Novice generally do not transition well to Open trialling.

Edit: Just to clarify, it does depend on the reason behind the scores, this obviously doesn't apply to every single handler/dog :D

Edited December 31, 2011 by wuffles

[Mason_Gibbs]

I trained my dog with rolled up socks, everytime he picked it up i said good hold and gave a jackpot EVERYTIME!! He couldnt understand at first that i wanted him to have the dumbell held in his mouth. My puppy i have trained the shirley chong way, he got it straight away

[aussielover]

I think you need to look at the reward. You say the dog is only moderately interested in food? what does the dog like? you said it had high prey drive? why not try a tug or other toy? Does the dog like to be petted or praised?

If the dog is not interested in any of these things, I would think you need to look at some sort of value-building or training in drive program, that increases desire for a reward.

Also, what type of food are they using as the reward? Maybe something more interesting or yummier might be better.

Just because they are used to working with food, or the dog is used to it, doesn't mean you have to use it for every exercise. I find my dog recalls better for a toy or tug. She works better with food for close contact work or work that requires a lot of concentration- like heeling.

Having said that, it does not make a difference to my dog if she has been fed before training. Personally I wouldn't want to be using food as reward if it means the dog has to be starved to work enthusiastically for it. I don't just mean missing one meal (I subsitute my dogs meal for training treats to stop her getting fat!), but I hear some trainers will make the dog go without food for several days in order to increase food drive.

[Nekhbet]

sounds like the dog is a little 'over trained' and she's been pushing too hard. The dog is shutting down especially if its being forced. I think taking some steps back and just having some fun with the dog, working on basics and playing tug or just flirt pole for a while to build the relationship back up.

Saying that if she wont listen she wont get anywhere.

[Canine Coach]

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions

I appreciate the ideas

We have had great progress and I feel, well on our way to SUCCESS

The 1st steps were to reward the dog, with food, for just sniffing or making ANY contact with the dumbell

The next step was to reward the dog with food, for poking/moving shoving the dumbell on the ground

The next step, dog, (when hungry and rested/bored),was put on a flat buckle collar and a long lead, (approx 4 meters)

5-10 minutes 2 -3 times a week, the dumbell was brought out and the owner or myself, played with the dumbell, just out of the dog's reach

Yesterday, the formally dumbell adversive dog, started barking and straining to get the dumbell,

This happened, when we played and rewarded, my own dog, who is VERY motivated to retrieve anything and everything. My own dog was also on lead and kept in sight and just out of reach of the 1st dog)

When the adversive dog seemed to be motivated, the dumbell was thrown into his reach

At this stage, he is actively grabbing the dumbell from the ground or from my hands, holding it briefly (up to 5 seconds) releasing it to my hands and receiving food reward

From the beginning, I always used the word YES, and rewarded instantly when he made contact with the dumbell

I agree. It is MUCH MUCH more difficult to deal with, train PEOPLE/HANDLERS, to train/handle/relate with their dogs than to take a dog and train it myself

Serious question...What are some of the reasons, people seek free advice and/or pay for lessons and do not listen, fail to take advice or fail to follow reccomendations?

[Nekhbet]

Serious question...What are some of the reasons, people seek free advice and/or pay for lessons and do not listen, fail to take advice or fail to follow reccomendations?

That will always be the eternal question won't it. It happens in all industries, there are people who ask you a question and yet either refuse to follow advice or tell you you're wrong and it should be done their way (which negated the need for asking in the first place :rolleyes:)

I agree. It is MUCH MUCH more difficult to deal with, train PEOPLE/HANDLERS, to train/handle/relate with their dogs than to take a dog and train it myself

Thats why really, I dont. I get the owners to do it and work with them so they achieve it. Dogs can change any time we want them too but unless you help change the owner it wont be a permanent fix. Thats why I suggested move right away from this problem the owners fixated on