Liability

[Lugeanjaam]

I was having a discussion with my OH last night and I was hoping that the collective DOL knowledge might help with some answers!

The short version is that 2 doors down the neighbours two children aged 5 and 2 1/2 quite often wander the streets (with the youngest completely naked but that's another story!). They always have their dog with them which is a little Foxie cross. They come up to our fence which is similar to pool fencing and their dog goes nuts barking, growling and carrying on which causes Suki to react. It ends up with both dogs running along the fence line with lots of growling and carrying on. Amongst all of this the little boy is shoving his hand through the fence trying to pat Suki! She is wonderful with children but she does have some reactive issues with dogs which we are working on. My question is if the little boy gets bitten as a result of shoving his hand through the fence during this are we liable?

As a side note we are putting shade cloth up along that particular boundary to stop this from happening as regardless of liability I do not want this little boy being bitten. I am also addressing the negligence issues (they are always wandering the streets, I have even taken him back home at 7.30 at night when I found him out wandering the neighborhood naked again). We have just contacted child services as talking to the mother has not helped at all.

[Sandra777]

Yes you are liable.

[rebelsquest]

Yes you are liable.

Really? I would of thought seeing the child is sticking his hand through the fence, and therefore onto the OP's property, OP wouldn't be liable. But that's just based on my opinion, not on any legal knowledge .

OP, can you report the dog for being off lead and for wandering the streets?

Edited December 28, 2011 by rebelsquest

[Sandra777]

Yes you are liable.

Really? I would of thought seeing the child is sticking his hand through the fence, and therefore onto the OP's property, OP wouldn't be liable. But that's just based on my opinion, not on any legal knowledge .

OP, can you report the dog for being off lead and for wandering the streets?

So by that logic the owner wouldn't be liable in the case of the hunting dogs which killed the little girl when she wandered onto their property?

[Winterpaws]

Move your dog into the backyard?

[megan_]

If a child can access your dog from the street (or put their hand through the fence) then you are liable (at least in part). In fact, if a child wanders onto your property you are liable too (even

N if they open a closed gate) - that is why locked gates and solid, tall fences are important.

To the op - you can get this concrete sheeting stuff at bunnings and secure it against the fencing to make it more solid. It is ugly as sin but

Edited December 28, 2011 by megan_

[SwaY]

Yes you are liable.

Really? I would of thought seeing the child is sticking his hand through the fence, and therefore onto the OP's property, OP wouldn't be liable. But that's just based on my opinion, not on any legal knowledge .

OP, can you report the dog for being off lead and for wandering the streets?

So by that logic the owner wouldn't be liable in the case of the hunting dogs which killed the little girl when she wandered onto their property?

If you jump my fence and my dog bites you - in my eyes that is your fault.

When it comes to kids who don't know any better sticking hands through the fence - I would remove the dog.

[Lugeanjaam]

She is in the backyard. The front yard is not fenced and the child is coming down the driveway to the back gate. I have no problems addressing the issue on my end and making it do that he can't get his hand through I was just wondering about the legalities. My OH thought that we would not be liable as she is contained in our yard and the child and dog are entering our property but I assumed that we have a duty of care to ensure that my dog does not bite regardless of who's property she is on.

[Agility Dogs]

Yes you are liable.

Unfortunately I agree - it is a forseeable risk that a child could put their hand through the fence and get bitten. Especially since you know they do it and have most likely commented about it to others.

Personal responsibility is worringly not part of the equation - we have to protect idiots from themselves.

By this I mean we have to protect the poor little kid from his parent's negligence. NOT suggesting OP is doing anything wrong.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Agility Dogs

[megan_]

The precedent has been set - it doesn't matter that the chd is on your property uninvited. If the can access the dog then you are liable. I can't remember the name of the hunting dog case that sandra refers to but your husband should look it up - he'll be in for a shock!

[Lugeanjaam]

This pretty much confirmed my thoughts.

Children are unpredictable by nature and a 2 1/2 yr old could not reasonably foresee the risks involved in this scenario. It is my responsibility as the owner to ensure he or any other child does not get bitten. In a perfect world we would all take steps to ensure that our dogs are contained and our children are safe but unfortunately this is not the real world.

We are erecting a barrier on the weekend and in the meantime Suki will not be allowed outside unless supervised.

[mace]

She is in the backyard. The front yard is not fenced and the child is coming down the driveway to the back gate. I have no problems addressing the issue on my end and making it do that he can't get his hand through I was just wondering about the legalities. My OH thought that we would not be liable as she is contained in our yard and the child and dog are entering our property but I assumed that we have a duty of care to ensure that my dog does not bite regardless of who's property she is on.

From my understanding, it amounts to having breached a law in containment of your dog. Tresspassing isn't age dependant as far as I know, a dog in most cases is allowed to bite an intruder on their property. If the dog was in the front yard and could stick it's head through the fence into the street, yes I would say 100% liablilty on the owners part, if's a side fence down the driveway as described I would say the dog is contained effectively and the child has tresspassed. Ideally though it's best if people can't get their hands into the dog's enclosure, we had arm access holes in our side gate which backs onto the street so it can be opened from the outside, we covered the holes in with a piece of colourbond so people, kids etc cant stick their hands in and potentially get bitten.

[Dame Aussie]

WIth our ridiculous laws you'd probably be liable. Total rubbish but hey, that's society for you.

[persephone]

there are lots of good solid mesh types around.. so your dog can still see, but no hand can be inserted ...

[german_shep_fan]

I think it should be the parents responisbility to keep their kids at home! How stupid letting little kids wonder around like that, esp with a dog to control! But that is another story!

Not sure if you are liable or not, i personally think you should not be. Your dog is in its own yard, the child should not be sticking his/her hand through you fence, of course the child is too young to understand this, but the mother should not allow her kids to just wonder the neighbourhood either! Madness.

Edited December 29, 2011 by german_shep_fan

[Lugeanjaam]

I just googled that hunting dog case, how terribly sad!! That poor little girl:(. Such a awful situation on every level.

[HugL]

I would never put a "beware of the dog" sign up as this implies you have a dangerous dog - was informed this by a cop/friend. Also told if someone accesses your yard and gets bitten they have every right to sue you for keeping an aggressive dog. Apparently, dogs defending their territory does not exist in human law proving the law is an ass!

On the children wandering - from my personal experience with Child Protection they are unable to do anything unless the child will be dead in 24hrs. They are understaffed and over regulated. However, keep reporting and record all your reports (daily if necessary) and if nothing is done, contact one of the current affairs shows. This appears to be the only way to get through to the government.

Good luck on both fronts

[Greytmate]

It seems like you could be doing more to prevent your dog being upset by what is happening outside your property, and to prevent it from hurting a very small child.

Put it in your back yard.

Think of it as a prevention issue instead of planning the attitude you will take if somebody else is hurt by your dog.

[Lugeanjaam]

It seems like you could be doing more to prevent your dog being upset by what is happening outside your property, and to prevent it from hurting a very small child.

Put it in your back yard.

Think of it as a prevention issue instead of planning the attitude you will take if somebody else is hurt by your dog.

As explained previously my dog is in my backyard. The child and dog are walking down my driveway to my back gate. There as never been an issue in preventing my dog from hurting a child, we are taking every step necessary to ensure this does not occur. This is simply a question of lability in order to settle a discussion between my OH and myself as to whether we are actually liable or not. Even if it was decided that we are actually not liable I would still take these steps, its common sense, prevention is far better than cure.

Just to clarify Suki is a very gentle girl and has never shown the even the slightest aggression. She adores children and is extremely tolerant and loving. We were just discussing the possibility of a little child's hand came in the middle of 2 dogs barking at eachother and accidently got bitten.

Edited December 29, 2011 by sujo

[rebelsquest]

It seems like you could be doing more to prevent your dog being upset by what is happening outside your property, and to prevent it from hurting a very small child.

Put it in your back yard.

Think of it as a prevention issue instead of planning the attitude you will take if somebody else is hurt by your dog.

OP has already said the dog is in the backyard, child is walking up the driveway and sticking hand through fence.

OP has also said they are planning on blocking the fence, and in the meantime the dog is only allowed outside supervised. I think they are taking action, but still wanting to query liability, probably more out of curiosity than "planning their attitude". That's how I have interpreted OP's posts anyway.

ETA I posted at the same time as sujo :D

Edited December 29, 2011 by rebelsquest