Rescue Lumping Breederswith Byb And Pet Shops

[huga]

Some people in "rescue" and the PETA Nazi's forget that not everyone is interested in owning a pound mutt or a dog of unknown parentage/breed from a rescue. Many choose pedigree dogs because they like the predictability that comees with a pedigree animal. Some will never own a rescue and would rather not have a dog at all.

Yes yes yes.

A friend and I were recently criticized by someone because we asked for purebred dogs for a photography project (apparently this is 'retarded' and by choosing to buy a dog from a breeder, we are killing dogs in shelters).

[tdierikx]

I loved your photos from those shoots huga... and even though I'm in rescue, I don't believe that anyone buying a purebred and registered dog is "killing a shelter dog".

People all have different "tastes" in their choice of pets - and I reckon there are plenty of all types to go around.

Oh - and the "overpopulation" thing is a myth - there are enough homes for all of them... it just takes some longer to find the right one is all - and that's what rescue do so well... *grin*... and I'm of the firm belief that we shouldn't "save them all" either - for some animals, the kindest thing for them is to be given their wings.

T.

[mace]

As this thread has gone way off topic . . . what about working line Dobes? Surely must be some good ones, here or import from o/s if they are serious about getting good bloodlines and don't like what is already here.

Sorry for the off topic reply, just a quick one, but I have read many times where it appears the Dobe as a breed didn't quite have what a GSD had in overall performance years back and breeders phased out of the Dobe like they did with the Rotty as many have done with the GSD for the Malinois and the good old bloodlines become lost in evolution, at one stage way back the Dobe,GSD & Rotty were pretty much on the same level doing the same type of work. Vonforell kennels in Vic breed working Dobes along with their GSD's from a lot of imported bloodlines I have seen

Edited December 23, 2011 by mace

[Fuzzycuddles]

I hazard a guess that the majority of pet owners are after health and temperament and that their 'breed' choice is based on aesthetics or "so n so's dog is nice - lets get one like that".

Ethical for me is knowing that the puppy was bred and reared in good conditions and is free from any inherited conditions.

ETA apologies for my inability to quote correctly...

unfortunately many dogs are chosen based on looks or price, but there are still many who choose based on inherited conditions (long term costs) and breed temperament etc.

i would still hazard a guess that it isnt possible to be an ethical BYB even by those standards (not to imply they are too low please dont take it that way just others have a long list and it varies so much depending on the person and their values i know for me some registered breeders dont meet my requirements for what i think is ethical )

most BYB do not offer health testing or genetic screening, so while the puppy and the bitch/ dog may be raised well it is difficult to know that the pups aren't going to later have any number of genetic health issues come up. i would also cautiously say that it isnt possible to breed a new breed/ mix ethically as we cannot make any guarantees about health as we wont know for generations what that mix may have associatiated with it.

[mace]

A friend and I were recently criticized by someone because we asked for purebred dogs for a photography project (apparently this is 'retarded' and by choosing to buy a dog from a breeder, we are killing dogs in shelters).

Ok, we critisize backyard breeders, but then project a guilt trip for not adopting them through rescue Rescue and shelters do a great job, I admire their dedication and work, but to me it sends back a message to the BYB there are organisations out there marketing and promoting their stock so BYB'ing must be a good thing?

I hate that fact that some BYB,er can run a litter of crossbreeds and I have asked some of these people what are you going to do with the pups, do you have homes for them, "oh it doesn't matter one told me, I will take them to some rescue/shelter, they will be able to find homes for them"

Ggrr, that pisses me off so much, just do a litter and then handball it to someone else to avoid responsibility for the irresponsible actions of bringing doggy lives into the world for no valid reason, I have a real problem with that

[Greytmate]

A friend and I were recently criticized by someone because we asked for purebred dogs for a photography project (apparently this is 'retarded' and by choosing to buy a dog from a breeder, we are killing dogs in shelters).

Ok, we critisize backyard breeders, but then project a guilt trip for not adopting them through rescue Rescue and shelters do a great job, I admire their dedication and work, but to me it sends back a message to the BYB there are organisations out there marketing and promoting their stock so BYB'ing must be a good thing?

I hate that fact that some BYB,er can run a litter of crossbreeds and I have asked some of these people what are you going to do with the pups, do you have homes for them, "oh it doesn't matter one told me, I will take them to some rescue/shelter, they will be able to find homes for them"

Ggrr, that pisses me off so much, just do a litter and then handball it to someone else to avoid responsibility for the irresponsible actions of bringing doggy lives into the world for no valid reason, I have a real problem with that

Rescues mainly deal with the byb dogs after they have grown up and are not so cute. The vast majority of dogs needing homes fall into this category. There is no overpopulation of pups, no shortage of takers there, but there is a big overpopulation of adult dogs that are no longer wanted. The lucky few of these will end up in rescue.

At an older age, a dog can be assessed carefully to know its temperament and have tests to make sure it is healthy. If because of poor breeding or poor rearing or a combination of both it is not suitable to be somebody's pet, an ethical rescue org will not sell that dog as a pet.

Where as those buying a puppy of unknown breeding have to wait until the pup matures to find out if the dog is sound and healthy and of a good nature.

Those buying a well-bred pup, and raising it well, have a much better chance of ending up with a good dog than those buying byb pups. But the best way to assess whether a dog is a good dog in all respects is to assess it as an adult. So buying an adult dog (from breeder or rescue) can make a lot of sense if proper assessment is done. What you see is what you get. as the dog is fully developed.

Yes, some byb do drop unsold pups off at a shelter or pound, but that does not mean they will get homes, it's what they want you to think will happen. What else are they going to tell you?

[Blonde_Phoenix]

To the OP, honestly I would not give two hoots about what people like that say. There are extremists/crazies in every cause, I'll get my companion animals from where I choose and I don't apologise for that. I love and care about my brood, one rescue and two purebreds and to me thats all that matters. Darn I can't save the whole world!

Sliding off topic

[ i would also cautiously say that it isnt possible to breed a new breed/ mix ethically as we cannot make any guarantees about health as we wont know for generations what that mix may have associatiated with it.

I have to disagree, I think it is possible to develop a new dog breed (which would be accepted by the ANKC), I'd hate to think that some line has been draw that no new breeds could come after. I struggle with the health argument because are there really any guarantees? But ethics poses a more interesting dilemma, it's a really interesting discussion, hmm do I brave starting a new topic? ;) .

[mace]

A friend and I were recently criticized by someone because we asked for purebred dogs for a photography project (apparently this is 'retarded' and by choosing to buy a dog from a breeder, we are killing dogs in shelters).

Ok, we critisize backyard breeders, but then project a guilt trip for not adopting them through rescue Rescue and shelters do a great job, I admire their dedication and work, but to me it sends back a message to the BYB there are organisations out there marketing and promoting their stock so BYB'ing must be a good thing?

I hate that fact that some BYB,er can run a litter of crossbreeds and I have asked some of these people what are you going to do with the pups, do you have homes for them, "oh it doesn't matter one told me, I will take them to some rescue/shelter, they will be able to find homes for them"

Ggrr, that pisses me off so much, just do a litter and then handball it to someone else to avoid responsibility for the irresponsible actions of bringing doggy lives into the world for no valid reason, I have a real problem with that

Rescues mainly deal with the byb dogs after they have grown up and are not so cute. The vast majority of dogs needing homes fall into this category. There is no overpopulation of pups, no shortage of takers there, but there is a big overpopulation of adult dogs that are no longer wanted. The lucky few of these will end up in rescue.

At an older age, a dog can be assessed carefully to know its temperament and have tests to make sure it is healthy. If because of poor breeding or poor rearing or a combination of both it is not suitable to be somebody's pet, an ethical rescue org will not sell that dog as a pet.

Where as those buying a puppy of unknown breeding have to wait until the pup matures to find out if the dog is sound and healthy and of a good nature.

Those buying a well-bred pup, and raising it well, have a much better chance of ending up with a good dog than those buying byb pups. But the best way to assess whether a dog is a good dog in all respects is to assess it as an adult. So buying an adult dog (from breeder or rescue) can make a lot of sense if proper assessment is done. What you see is what you get. as the dog is fully developed.

Yes, some byb do drop unsold pups off at a shelter or pound, but that does not mean they will get homes, it's what they want you to think will happen. What else are they going to tell you?

Personally, I would like to see BYB's shut down and dog breeding regulated, but given the majority of the stock that rescues carry to me is like the 2nd hand shop of BYB produce?. I don't mean that there a not good dogs from BYB's or that they don't make great pets or that rescues are peddling poor quality stock back out to the public that's not what I am getting at, it's that I don't support BYB breeding practices and wouldn't own one on that principal. I would take a pure breed from a rescue, but not a classical BYB X, I hate BYB cross breeders with a passion and would be hypocritical of me to own one of their dogs.

The reason I think so many are not wanted after puppyhood and end up in rescue is because they are too easily attainable from the BYB, too cheap and too attractive to people to buy on impulse when they are not really dog owner material. Of course there are genuine rescue cases, but merely not wanting a dog anymore because they can't be bothered with it learning they are not dog lovers after all is a cycle I would like to see broken. These same people I am sure would either be rejected by a good registered breeders to own their pups or they wouldn't pay the price for a papered pup or the purchase process would be too hard for these people and their ideas on having a dog would quickly fade and would not get one in the first place.

People complain about registered breeders wanting to know the in's and out's of their business before agreeing to sell them a pup and some can be a bit painfull to deal with, but many of the registered breeders do provide a good screening process that weeds out a lot of impulse buyers or unsuitable applicants which I think is a good thing. The BYB for the most part, who ever lays the cash on the table or who will take a freebie off their hands have got the pup, maybe not all but that is the general protocol, no wonder the rescues and shelters are full of unwanted dogs?.

Edited December 23, 2011 by mace

[Fuzzycuddles]

To the OP, honestly I would not give two hoots about what people like that say. There are extremists/crazies in every cause, I'll get my companion animals from where I choose and I don't apologise for that. I love and care about my brood, one rescue and two purebreds and to me thats all that matters. Darn I can't save the whole world!

Sliding off topic

[ i would also cautiously say that it isnt possible to breed a new breed/ mix ethically as we cannot make any guarantees about health as we wont know for generations what that mix may have associatiated with it.

I have to disagree, I think it is possible to develop a new dog breed (which would be accepted by the ANKC), I'd hate to think that some line has been draw that no new breeds could come after. I struggle with the health argument because are there really any guarantees? But ethics poses a more interesting dilemma, it's a really interesting discussion, hmm do I brave starting a new topic? ;) .

Well currently with known breeds there are certain tests run and certain issues known to be associated with that breed.. This varies depending on breed but I know with an aussie to ask about cea, hc, hips/ elbows, and MDR1 as a start and also (thanks to a friends lesson learnt the hard way) am aware enough to also check that the parents aren't Merle Merle to avoid issues there.

With a new breed I do not know what I am signing on for, indeed the earlier generations would hold no promises with physical attributes much less traits relating to medical/ genetic conditions.. It would take an incredible amount of culling and very aggressive restrictive breeding practices to introduce a genuine new breed that would take generations to be able to offer anywhere near the predictability we can expect (to a certain level) of the current breeds available now. I do not think we have drawn a line I can for better or worse see many of the 'oodles' that are the current trend eventually making it to a recognized breed status and indeed it wasn't till the 90's that Aussies were recognized themselves (from memory correct me if I'm wrong) I cannot see how ethically a new breed can be introduced or how it is likely to happen without a huge number of misfit dogs being produced and how in a society where there is already such a problem with misfit outcasts of potential new breeds do we justify working towards creating a new breed when the ones we have already cater so well to any number of situations. (may be garbled I'll check at a sane hour ;) , but I hope my point comes across ok)

[tdierikx]

Actually mace - most BYB's charge more for their "product" than rescues do - and a good number of the pet buying public expect a rescue dog/pup to be the cheapest alternative. In many cases rescue is even cheaper than buying from a pound.

The other difference between getting a BYB pup straight from the "breeder" or getting one from rescue, is socialisation of said pup and careful selection of the prospective new home. It certainly isn't a first come, first served situation. And some rescues are even more "intrusive" with their adoption process than your average registered breeder...

T.

[Gayle.]

I have to disagree, I think it is possible to develop a new dog breed (which would be accepted by the ANKC), I'd hate to think that some line has been draw that no new breeds could come after. I struggle with the health argument because are there really any guarantees? But ethics poses a more interesting dilemma, it's a really interesting discussion, hmm do I brave starting a new topic? ;) .

You can apply for a license for an experimental breed, but you'd need to have a clear idea of your purpose for wanting to create that breed and a thorough understanding of genetics so that you apply your knowledge correctly to create what you're after. And you'd need to realise that along the way, you'll be bringing hundreds or thousands of puppies into the world who won't meet your "standard" and will have to be ethically dealt with. They will be mongrel puppies, if you are crossing breeds to get to your goal......or really bad examples of an existing breed if you are selectively breeding to develop a different breed.

[mace]

Actually mace - most BYB's charge more for their "product" than rescues do - and a good number of the pet buying public expect a rescue dog/pup to be the cheapest alternative. In many cases rescue is even cheaper than buying from a pound.

The other difference between getting a BYB pup straight from the "breeder" or getting one from rescue, is socialisation of said pup and careful selection of the prospective new home. It certainly isn't a first come, first served situation. And some rescues are even more "intrusive" with their adoption process than your average registered breeder...

T.

Yes, I know the good rescues do a fine job, it's just me in the sense why I wouldn't adopt the classic cross breed from a rescue because I don't support the BYB system of random cross breedings, I guess I protest my dislike of this breeding system buy not owning one? I see rescue as a bit of a two edged sword, they are giving dogs a chance at life is what dog lovers do, but at the same token they are the BYB's greatest advocate to breed another litter. It's not like hey guys, were over run with BYB's looking for homes, tone the breeding down for a bit, the BYB say's look at all our marketing organisations how good is this, we will pump out a few more litters in that case?.

[Weasels]

To the OP, honestly I would not give two hoots about what people like that say. There are extremists/crazies in every cause, I'll get my companion animals from where I choose and I don't apologise for that. I love and care about my brood, one rescue and two purebreds and to me thats all that matters. Darn I can't save the whole world!

Sliding off topic

[ i would also cautiously say that it isnt possible to breed a new breed/ mix ethically as we cannot make any guarantees about health as we wont know for generations what that mix may have associatiated with it.

I have to disagree, I think it is possible to develop a new dog breed (which would be accepted by the ANKC), I'd hate to think that some line has been draw that no new breeds could come after. I struggle with the health argument because are there really any guarantees? But ethics poses a more interesting dilemma, it's a really interesting discussion, hmm do I brave starting a new topic? ;) .

Well currently with known breeds there are certain tests run and certain issues known to be associated with that breed.. This varies depending on breed but I know with an aussie to ask about cea, hc, hips/ elbows, and MDR1 as a start and also (thanks to a friends lesson learnt the hard way) am aware enough to also check that the parents aren't Merle Merle to avoid issues there.

With a new breed I do not know what I am signing on for, indeed the earlier generations would hold no promises with physical attributes much less traits relating to medical/ genetic conditions.. It would take an incredible amount of culling and very aggressive restrictive breeding practices to introduce a genuine new breed that would take generations to be able to offer anywhere near the predictability we can expect (to a certain level) of the current breeds available now. I do not think we have drawn a line I can for better or worse see many of the 'oodles' that are the current trend eventually making it to a recognized breed status and indeed it wasn't till the 90's that Aussies were recognized themselves (from memory correct me if I'm wrong) I cannot see how ethically a new breed can be introduced or how it is likely to happen without a huge number of misfit dogs being produced and how in a society where there is already such a problem with misfit outcasts of potential new breeds do we justify working towards creating a new breed when the ones we have already cater so well to any number of situations. (may be garbled I'll check at a sane hour ;) , but I hope my point comes across ok)

But why is it suddenly unethical to create a dog breed now when it wasn't in the past? If anything it should be more humane now, since we can run genetic tests; understand non-mendelian and atypical patterns of inheritance; and have modern surgical techniques allowing sterilisation and rehoming of non-breeding stock (rather than a shot to the head or a bag of pups in the river). We even have the entire dog genome sequenced so we can continue to develop more tests as needed.

There are plenty of dogs in existing breeds that are classed as misfit outcasts (if by that you mean not appropriate to continue the line), they have perfectly lovely homes I can't think why we would need a new breed myself (unless I can find one that replies to my emails and does the dishes :rolleyes:) but as a hypothetical arguement I'm not seeing why it was OK then but not OK now.

(efg)

Edited December 24, 2011 by Weasels

[sheena]

Actually mace - most BYB's charge more for their "product" than rescues do - and a good number of the pet buying public expect a rescue dog/pup to be the cheapest alternative. In many cases rescue is even cheaper than buying from a pound.

The other difference between getting a BYB pup straight from the "breeder" or getting one from rescue, is socialisation of said pup and careful selection of the prospective new home. It certainly isn't a first come, first served situation. And some rescues are even more "intrusive" with their adoption process than your average registered breeder...

T.

Yes, I know the good rescues do a fine job, it's just me in the sense why I wouldn't adopt the classic cross breed from a rescue because I don't support the BYB system of random cross breedings, I guess I protest my dislike of this breeding system buy not owning one? I see rescue as a bit of a two edged sword, they are giving dogs a chance at life is what dog lovers do, but at the same token they are the BYB's greatest advocate to breed another litter. It's not like hey guys, were over run with BYB's looking for homes, tone the breeding down for a bit, the BYB say's look at all our marketing organisations how good is this, we will pump out a few more litters in that case?.

Agree Mace!!

Edited December 23, 2011 by sheena

[Greytmate]

Yes, I know the good rescues do a fine job, it's just me in the sense why I wouldn't adopt the classic cross breed from a rescue because I don't support the BYB system of random cross breedings, I guess I protest my dislike of this breeding system buy not owning one? I see rescue as a bit of a two edged sword, they are giving dogs a chance at life is what dog lovers do, but at the same token they are the BYB's greatest advocate to breed another litter. It's not like hey guys, were over run with BYB's looking for homes, tone the breeding down for a bit, the BYB say's look at all our marketing organisations how good is this, we will pump out a few more litters in that case?.

Rescue is not a byb advocate. No matter what lies byb spread around to suit themselves.

There are so many adult dogs needing homes compared to the number of homes available. These dogs need homes because whoever sold them in the first place didn't place the dog in the right home.

The lucky few make it into rescue, the rest are killed. Most. Thousands every year. Byb do not produce litters unless they think they can sell all the pups, rescue does not really come into it.

Remember that next time a byb talks shit about rescue.

A person can be anti-byb, and still recognise that by sheer luck some of the dogs that byb produce will be excellent dogs. While it doesn't suit everyone to buy a rescue dog, you cannot blame the dog for how it was produced, it deserves to be assessed on its own merits. Buying from rescue does not support byb or any other type of breeding. It just prevents a dog being put to sleep.

[Fuzzycuddles]

I have never heard a rescue promote or otherwise encourage backyard breeding..

As for the other comment re our discussion I'll respond when I'm back home

[Trisven13]

Yes, I know the good rescues do a fine job, it's just me in the sense why I wouldn't adopt the classic cross breed from a rescue because I don't support the BYB system of random cross breedings, I guess I protest my dislike of this breeding system buy not owning one? I see rescue as a bit of a two edged sword, they are giving dogs a chance at life is what dog lovers do, but at the same token they are the BYB's greatest advocate to breed another litter. It's not like hey guys, were over run with BYB's looking for homes, tone the breeding down for a bit, the BYB say's look at all our marketing organisations how good is this, we will pump out a few more litters in that case?.

Rescue is not a byb advocate. No matter what lies byb spread around to suit themselves.

There are so many adult dogs needing homes compared to the number of homes available. These dogs need homes because whoever sold them in the first place didn't place the dog in the right home.

The lucky few make it into rescue, the rest are killed. Most. Thousands every year. Byb do not produce litters unless they think they can sell all the pups, rescue does not really come into it.

Remember that next time a byb talks shit about rescue.

A person can be anti-byb, and still recognise that by sheer luck some of the dogs that byb produce will be excellent dogs. While it doesn't suit everyone to buy a rescue dog, you cannot blame the dog for how it was produced, it deserves to be assessed on its own merits. Buying from rescue does not support byb or any other type of breeding. It just prevents a dog being put to sleep.

[tdierikx]

Thank you Greytmate... summed it up better than I ever could...

T.

[Cheyd]

I have never heard a rescue promote or otherwise encourage backyard breeding..

This and what greytmate said

[Blonde_Phoenix]

I have to disagree, I think it is possible to develop a new dog breed (which would be accepted by the ANKC), I'd hate to think that some line has been draw that no new breeds could come after. I struggle with the health argument because are there really any guarantees? But ethics poses a more interesting dilemma, it's a really interesting discussion, hmm do I brave starting a new topic? ;) .

You can apply for a license for an experimental breed, but you'd need to have a clear idea of your purpose for wanting to create that breed and a thorough understanding of genetics so that you apply your knowledge correctly to create what you're after. And you'd need to realise that along the way, you'll be bringing hundreds or thousands of puppies into the world who won't meet your "standard" and will have to be ethically dealt with. They will be mongrel puppies, if you are crossing breeds to get to your goal......or really bad examples of an existing breed if you are selectively breeding to develop a different breed.

Agree completely, it's not a quick or simple process but having said that I don't believe it is impossible. Ethics is where things become more interesting as the world has very much changed from when most breeds were developed.