Rescue Lumping Breederswith Byb And Pet Shops

[Roova]

The dogs you've listed, while exceptionally talented or trained, are still only "pet quality". No one doubts that a lot of pets are highly intelligent and very capable of carrying out complex tasks, but with a mixed breed dog, there is no documented ancestry, so no way of telling where that intelligence came from and no way of using it to produce offspring of equal or better intelligence than the parent.

On the other hand, if one of them had a pedigree, it would be relatively easy for a breeder with knowledge of those particular genes, to be able to match the dog to a suitable pedigree bitch and bring about litters of puppies that can then carry on the sires work. And that is how the dog gets to be better than pet quality.

Do many breeders actually work with genetics or are their choices generally made by what the breeding pair may offer standard wise, ie looks only?

I wasn't aware intelligence was a factor normally chosen for? How many breeds would that occur with? I guess if intelligence is a deciding factor for show/pedigree dog then someone breeding their pet dog because they think it has a great temperament is probably a blessing :D

Just out of interest if pedigrees don't show genetic information how would one use this as a deciding factor in their pedigree breeding?

When I was in the poultry world there were many books available which listed genetic information for different breeds. Extremely useful if introducing a different breed to better a poor line, or begin the creation of different colours without losing breed characteristics. Is the same type of information available for dog breeds? Are there any recommended books?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Roova

[Kavik]

Roova

My chosen breed is the Kelpie, and I prefer working line dogs. These dogs are bred for working ability, of which intelligence is a part, temperament is very important and certainly something I research when looking for a breeder. I am interested in dog sports and training.

Good breeders know the characteristics of the dogs in their breeding dog's pedigree (temperament and physical characteristics) and some dogs are well known to others in the breed. Certain lines are known for certain things and knowledge of this is crucial for breeders and can be helpful for buyers as well if you like to research.

[Alyosha]

Genetics and bloodlines is pretty much everything. You don't really think that successful breeders just chuck together two winning dogs and take their chances?? Some might, but note the word successful in there.

It is a whole package, not a looks thing. Looks must conform to standard, but that is just one part of the package in successful breeding and breed custodianship.

Books, photos, videos (in recent times!) personal knowledge of long term breeders, mentoring, networking - all of these things and more go into researching bloodlines. Just like any domestic animal. Poultry might be on a shorter time scale, and horses might be on a longer one, but the background records, research and knowledge put into bloodlines before considering matings is the same.

[Greytmate]

I will answer some of these because I agree with what Gayle has said.

Do many breeders actually work with genetics or are their choices generally made by what the breeding pair may offer standard wise, ie looks only?

The best breeders will look at the achievements of a dog's ancestors, and try to find out as much as they can about the temperaments of the dogs in the lines. They will talk to other breeders and look at the current progeny of the lines. They will see what lines combine well and what don't. They will sometimes outcross and sometimes breed back to a line.

I wasn't aware intelligence was a factor normally chosen for? How many breeds would that occur with? I guess if intelligence is a deciding factor for show/pedigree dog then someone breeding their pet dog because they think it has a great temperament is probably a blessing :D

It isn't IQ test type intelligence, it is how well the dog performs to the standard. This is measured in the show ring and involves conformation, gait, temperament, posture, and other things besides looks. The standard describes what a dog should be like to perform a task. A breeder of performance dogs will use performance as in indicator of excellence and use that to compare it to others of the breed. In some breeds like GSD or Border Collie, a dog's obedience or agility achievements might be highly valued and are important for breeders to know.

ANKC and other registries for working dogs all register the dogs' achievements and pedigree information so that future breeders can use the information.

Just out of interest if pedigrees don't show genetic information how would one use this as a deciding factor in their pedigree breeding?

Pedigrees do show colour, but more importantly they identify the dogs. Breeders should aim to know who is who in the top performers of their breed. That is where mentors are great and so is observation and reading.

This website has a lot of information that breeders can look up about show dogs and their performance. It isn't just a discussion forum.

[Roguedog]

this thread seems to have turned into a purebred vs cross bred debate... I think the comment "Cross breed dogs will never be better than pet quality" is one that is in the eye of the beholder, depends on what the dog is being bred for, many hunting dogs that are crossbred dogs excel at their job much better than a purebred dog of any breed ever would... all depends on the purpose... I think we all need to remember that even purebred dogs started as cross bred mutts ;) I love all dogs, mutts or purebreds... a dog is a dog is a dog to me...

[Gayle.]

this thread seems to have turned into a purebred vs cross bred debate... I think the comment "Cross breed dogs will never be better than pet quality" is one that is in the eye of the beholder, depends on what the dog is being bred for, many hunting dogs that are crossbred dogs excel at their job much better than a purebred dog of any breed ever would... all depends on the purpose... I think we all need to remember that even purebred dogs started as cross bred mutts ;) I love all dogs, mutts or purebreds... a dog is a dog is a dog to me...

No, they most certainly did not. Most dog breeds started out as a "type" or what is also referred to as a "landrace" and through selective breeding of certain traits for the jobs the original breeders wanted them to perform, the breeds we have today were created. Some breeds were created by introducing other breeds, but not many.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gayle.

[Sheridan]

this thread seems to have turned into a purebred vs cross bred debate... I think the comment "Cross breed dogs will never be better than pet quality" is one that is in the eye of the beholder, depends on what the dog is being bred for, many hunting dogs that are crossbred dogs excel at their job much better than a purebred dog of any breed ever would... all depends on the purpose... I think we all need to remember that even purebred dogs started as cross bred mutts ;) I love all dogs, mutts or purebreds... a dog is a dog is a dog to me...

A dog is a dog to some people, but to me a dog is wheaten or a kerry blue. Or a glen or an irish or a westie or a scottie or pedigree variation. A terrier, certainly. At a pinch a dog is a sussex or a field or a clumber spaniel.

No, they most certainly did not. Most dog breeds started out as a "type" or what is also referred to as a "landrace" and through selective breeding of certain traits for the jobs the original breeders wanted them to perform, the breeds we have today were created. Some breeds were created by introducing other breeds, but not many.

Curious to know what people know about the origins of their dog breeds.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Sheridan

[tdierikx]

Speaking from a purely pet loving angle here... I'm probably one of those people who likes a bit of unpredictability in how their "mutt" turns out when grown up. I'm also more likely to want more crossbred dogs as pets during my lifetime.

That said, however, I'm also highly likely to make sure that my "mutt" is given the best chance at having decent social skills as an adult via the use of training, and socialising it as a pup. I'm not talking obedience titles, but the ability to take the dog to a busy park and know that it's not going to do anything stupid, and come back immediately when I call it.

As for health issues - so far the worst I've had is chronic arthritis manifesting in a 7 year old Rotti, and bone cancer in another 7 year old Rotti - the arthritic dog was managed with great vet care and made it to 11 before she had help to the Bridge. Both Rotti's were purebred from champion lines. So far I've been extremely lucky healthwise with my current "mutts" - a 12 year old Rotti/Pittie cross who looks and acts like she's 5, and a 6 year old Labrador (with possibly Dingo in her "lines") who made the infamous Marley look like a dream dog when she was younger, but can still be taken anywhere and knows how to behave herself in public. My 1 year old "camp dog" rescue girl came to me as a foster pup, and had a brain injury of unknown origin that means she walks funny (has coordination issues when walking) - her health in all other respects is exceptional - she has hit all milestones perfectly except for her gait...

All of my dogs get brought up the same - food that maintains their good health, vet care when they need it, basic obedience and social skills instilled, and lots of love - it makes no iota of difference whether they have a pedigree or not.

Don't get me wrong - I can see why many people may prefer a purebred dog - and even why some may "aspire" to have one or more in their lives... but I'm not necessarily one of them... and I'm not alone... *grin*

T.

[~Anne~]

this thread seems to have turned into a purebred vs cross bred debate... I think the comment "Cross breed dogs will never be better than pet quality" is one that is in the eye of the beholder, depends on what the dog is being bred for, many hunting dogs that are crossbred dogs excel at their job much better than a purebred dog of any breed ever would... all depends on the purpose... I think we all need to remember that even purebred dogs started as cross bred mutts ;) I love all dogs, mutts or purebreds... a dog is a dog is a dog to me...

Just like you were once an ape that lived in a tree, but how much does that have to do with your current ancestory?

[Dame Aussie]

Speaking from a purely pet loving angle here... I'm probably one of those people who likes a bit of unpredictability in how their "mutt" turns out when grown up. I'm also more likely to want more crossbred dogs as pets during my lifetime.

That said, however, I'm also highly likely to make sure that my "mutt" is given the best chance at having decent social skills as an adult via the use of training, and socialising it as a pup. I'm not talking obedience titles, but the ability to take the dog to a busy park and know that it's not going to do anything stupid, and come back immediately when I call it.

As for health issues - so far the worst I've had is chronic arthritis manifesting in a 7 year old Rotti, and bone cancer in another 7 year old Rotti - the arthritic dog was managed with great vet care and made it to 11 before she had help to the Bridge. Both Rotti's were purebred from champion lines. So far I've been extremely lucky healthwise with my current "mutts" - a 12 year old Rotti/Pittie cross who looks and acts like she's 5, and a 6 year old Labrador (with possibly Dingo in her "lines") who made the infamous Marley look like a dream dog when she was younger, but can still be taken anywhere and knows how to behave herself in public. My 1 year old "camp dog" rescue girl came to me as a foster pup, and had a brain injury of unknown origin that means she walks funny (has coordination issues when walking) - her health in all other respects is exceptional - she has hit all milestones perfectly except for her gait...

All of my dogs get brought up the same - food that maintains their good health, vet care when they need it, basic obedience and social skills instilled, and lots of love - it makes no iota of difference whether they have a pedigree or not.

Don't get me wrong - I can see why many people may prefer a purebred dog - and even why some may "aspire" to have one or more in their lives... but I'm not necessarily one of them... and I'm not alone... *grin*

T.

This describes me to a T.

I have one rescue and one purebreed and while I love certain breeds, I kind of like not knowing exactly how my "mutt" will end up. My current mutt is one of the most sensitive, funny, loyal dogs I've ever known. Having said that I do not show my dogs or compete in sports etc so they're just members of the family to me.

I am sure I will get another rescue mutt in my lifetime

[Roguedog]

A dog is a dog to some people, but to me a dog is wheaten or a kerry blue. Or a glen or an irish or a westie or a scottie or pedigree variation. A terrier, certainly. At a pinch a dog is a sussex or a field or a clumber spaniel.

fair enough, these days there is such a huge difference in breed temps, shapes, sizes...

No, they most certainly did not. Most dog breeds started out as a "type" or what is also referred to as a "landrace" and through selective breeding of certain traits for the jobs the original breeders wanted them to perform, the breeds we have today were created. Some breeds were created by introducing other breeds, but not many.

most of those types (not all mind you) were infact of mixed orgin... then they started breeding for a specific purpose, once the breedings produced animals of the same abilities and preferred colour/size for several generations (5 to get registration these days), wha-la! a breed is created... hence why so called "breeds" such as the "bull arab" will never get recognition, cannot produce the required 5 gens that conform to a "standard", too all over the place and bred for ability not looks... I get what you mean though, this doesnt apply to all breeds..

Just like you were once an ape that lived in a tree, but how much does that have to do with your current ancestory?

lmao!!! there are some humans out there that are still ape types that arnt far off from the living in trees part! doing rescue and welfare work sure showed me that! some humans dont deserve the the title "human"... I absolutely get what you mean by the comment though Anne

I only own purebred pedigree dogs myself here! I do love mutts but my choice is purebreds, that way I know exactly what my dog will look like as an adult and all the health testing is done.. I guess it all comes down to personal choice..

ETA: spelling!

Edited December 29, 2011 by Roguedog

[Blonde_Phoenix]

I'm going to bite

Cross breed dogs will never be better than pet quality, and so if your criteria is higher or more specific than pet quality, or you need breeding quality, you need to buy a purebreed dog.

,

What defines 'pet quality'? My familie's mutt has achieved highly in both obedience and agility (she only just retired this year age 13). I know of many others who fit her mold. Yes she won't win a show (she can't enter) but is that the only condition?

My sister and I have both chosen purebreds (from breeders we know and respect and in Qld i don't think you can run more than one cross in dog sports) but I would take a mutt in a second. Heck some mutt breeders have better ethics than some purebred breeders I know.

[Fuzzycuddles]

Pet quality means it has a flaw that makes it unsuitable to continue the line/ represent the breed while still remaining a lovely dog who would be suited to a companion/ pet lifestyle. This is not to say they cannot excell at agility / obedience or anything else just that they do not meet the high standards of that breed, they may have a mismark, overbite/ underbite, medical condition (though I'd hope that's not too common) etc any number of reasons that just means your dog isn't the ideal to represent that breed.. Though I have a very limited understanding so I may be wrong

[tdierikx]

I'm going to bite

Cross breed dogs will never be better than pet quality, and so if your criteria is higher or more specific than pet quality, or you need breeding quality, you need to buy a purebreed dog.

,

What defines 'pet quality'? My familie's mutt has achieved highly in both obedience and agility (she only just retired this year age 13). I know of many others who fit her mold. Yes she won't win a show (she can't enter) but is that the only condition?

My sister and I have both chosen purebreds (from breeders we know and respect and in Qld i don't think you can run more than one cross in dog sports) but I would take a mutt in a second. Heck some mutt breeders have better ethics than some purebred breeders I know.

There will be "good" and "bad" breeders of any type of dog - pure or mutt - that is a given...

If you are wanting a specific type of dog with predictable guarantees of how it will develop, looks, size, health status, etc... then you are more likely to get those things with a purebred and pedigreed dog.

Then again, the selection of a family pet should never be a spur of the moment thing either - one should do a little bit of research into what you want from that dog, then make an informed "purchase" based on the criteria that matter to you most. If you get a bad vibe from the breeder (ANY breeder, pure or mutt), or their dogs, then don't buy a dog from them - it's pretty simple really.

Personally, I don't think that breeding of pets for the general populace should be restricted to only purebred/pedigreed animals - but I do believe that breeding healthy and temperamentally sound animals should be paramount for any breeder of any type of dog.

T.

[Katdogs]

I didn't know much about the pure-bred dog world until joining DOL to ask for help when my mutt pup (Lab x GR) was proving too smart for me. Then I saw the rescue forum and got hooked. My second foster was a failure (Kelpie x ? - an amazing little girl, loved by all who meet her). I've since fostered a dozen or so dogs, mostly pound Labs and a couple of SWF. It's helped me realise what works best for me and my family, and given me a 'shopping list' of traits that I want and don't want - and the best way to get this is through a good Breeder. Now I hope my next 'own' dog will be a very carefully researched reg PB Lab pup (black male with 'intelligent disobedience' but an off-switch) for obedience and Delta/therapy training and companionship.

I do not want to be made to feel guilty about choosing a pup from a Breeder because I don't believe I will be adding to the overall 'dog problem', but for some reason now when I mention this dream pup I get a lot of people giving me grief - more than when I got my first mutt Stevie (given to us by a friend, but from a BYB and the rest of the litter when into pet shops at about 5 weeks old at Christmas ). Rescue is the new black!

Edited December 29, 2011 by Katdogs

[Mystiqview]

I really hate to be negative or horrible here. I work for a local council and have worked at a pound. Including assisting the vet in putting to sleep dogs and cats. Some animals you feel sorry for. Others, well, you go it is the best thing for the animal.

A animal welfare agency with a "Zero kill policy/aim" have recently taken over our pound. The animal destruction bins after destruction day is just as much as what it was when the council was managing the pound.

While it is great for some people to adopt a dog or cat from a pound. You also have to remember WHY the animal was dumped there in the first place.

I am not slagging any welfare groups, breeders or anyone here. Unfortunately it is not just a pure case of where the dog was bought from. Although statistics say, those bought from pedigree breeders are less likely to find a way into a pound than those animals that are bought elsewhere.

The pound I was in:

High number of staffy and staffy x's and other similar breeds

Dogs ended up in the pound were chronic escape artists who the owners had finally had enough

Other dogs were seized as part of a dog attack or similar (dog attack did not have to be serious, in many cases the owners were required to improve fencing to contain the dog. The attacks were minor in nature.

The working dogs (BC's, Kelpies, Cattle etc) were high drive and most owners would not be able to br cope with them as many were cross farm working dogs.

Some very large dogs came in like Maremma's. These were very nice and placid.

Small fluffy dogs have a higher chance of being rehomed than a medium to large dog

Look at the above brief rundown of the animals in the pound.

You have to remember WHY the dog was in the pound to start with...

Escape artists: do you have a 6 foot fence and suitable containment to KEEP the animal in??

Barkers: Very hard to control in suburbia. Do you have the time to spend on fixing it?

Large dogs: Do you have the ROOM and TIME to devote to exercise and training for a large dog

Working dog: same as the large dog, barkers and escape artists.

The problem I saw it while working in the pound, is the long criticism of breeders and trainers. People buy the wrong dog/breed/personality type for their situation. They buy a fad animal, or a cheap animal not thinking about the long term of keeping the said animal.

Nothing against the staffy people in here: Staffies are known to be great family pets, devoted etc. They also can be great escape artists. One thing often overlooked with general populace.

Classic example is my neighbour.

The 14 year old daughter came home with a 6 week FTGH staffy cross puppy. When asked "Why" she responded it was "FREE". I told her even if they bought the dog, that is the cheapest part of KEEPING a dog. They are housing commission and on the dole. So no income. They drink heaps and smoke heaps, so no money. The 12 year old son came over to me and demanded I give them dog food until pension day. (I feed premium).

Two days after getting the dog, it went through the open top steps and fell injuring a leg. Some hours after, the son came over to me and demanded I look at their dog. I am no vet. I felt the leg, said as much and advised them how to (cheaply) stop the puppy from going through the open backed steps. Two days after this again, it went through the steps and injured the opposite side leg. I did not even have a chance to turn the engine off in my car after arriving home from work when they demanded again I look at the pup as they "did not have enough money for the vet".

The dog was left to its own devices in the back yard. The son used to kick it around and down the steps. It barked constantly, mouthed everyone, had no manners and destroyed furniture and things under the house. The dog was thrown some food and maybe a bone or two. At about 6 months of age, it came into season and they thought to make money. While I was at work, they threw the bitch over my fence so hopefully my red/white pedigree border collie could mate with it and they could have puppies. Thankfully nothing happened, and my neighbour told them to get out of my yard.

Somewhere in between here, they decided to increase the height of their fence. (Typical old housing commission place with 3 foot chainwire fence). They got tomato stakes and chicken wire. Needless to say, this did not keep the dog in. It just bent the chicken wire and broke the tomato stakes.

Some 12 months after getting this pup. It is now a menace to the neighbourhood. They advertised it on Gumtree FTGH. Some people took it as they already had a staffy. They had the dog for 2 hours!!! They brought it back because it attacked their existing staffy. (No surprise there). My neighbour then gave them $50 and told them to take it to the RSPCA or THEY will. The dog went to the RSPCA.

I know as well as anyone else reading this, what would have happened to that dog. Realistically, it is probably the best thing TO happen to it. Safer for the wider community. If you have the time and effort, you MAY have been able to retrain the dog. Trying to retrain a 12 month old staffy who is aggressive, unmannered, and just all round not a nice dog.

This dog in a different home, would no doubt be a different dog.

Before people really want to start slagging breeders etc. They really need to stop thinking with their emotions and look at the root cause of the problem. It is the age old saying of supply and demand. BYB and unfortunately to say Registered (BYB/puppy farmers) are popping up more and more. Take a look in the BC listings on DOL for example and see all the colour breeders breeding fad colour puppies for the general population. There are those who have permanent ads up there for coloured puppies.

Only this morning, I and many other of my breeder counterparts received a SMS text in the early hours of this morning (Mine was 2:43am) wanting a "wheaten/white" pup to go with their 5 year old black/white male.

[Mystiqview]

Pet quality means it has a flaw that makes it unsuitable to continue the line/ represent the breed while still remaining a lovely dog who would be suited to a companion/ pet lifestyle. This is not to say they cannot excell at agility / obedience or anything else just that they do not meet the high standards of that breed, they may have a mismark, overbite/ underbite, medical condition (though I'd hope that's not too common) etc any number of reasons that just means your dog isn't the ideal to represent that breed.. Though I have a very limited understanding so I may be wrong

I have seen it too many times on DOL over the years. Some people look at "pet quality" as if it has two heads or something. I don't get it.

When you are looking at a breeding dog, the construction needs to be the best as it is these traits you want to continue on. Temperament is another.. In the show ring, you do not want a sook who all they want to do is sleep. You need a "look at me pizazz" temperament. If you have two pups with equal quality constuction and that is the different in temperament.. the "look at me" is better for the show ring, and the sook is better for a pet person.

Showing is a competitive sport. Just like obedience, agility and any of the other dog sports is competitive. A show/breed dog may have slightly better turn of stifle where as the pet dog is straighter in stifle. The straighter dog, is not necessarily going to break down, or anything like that. It just means a sibling is better than it. The straight stifled dog may still competively compete in another sport if placed in such a home.

Markings. In my breed. A blue eye is considered a fault. There is nothing wrong with a blue eye. Some BYB go out of their way to advertise this "feature". The dog can see equally well out of a blue eye or brown. Half white faces are also not desired, but again, some people make a feature out of it, and some pet people love this on a border collie.

[Gayle.]

Unfortunately, I can testify to 6 ft fences not keeping in a serial escape artist. Where there's a will there's a way and our escape artist will scale the 6 ft gate as easy as stepping over a log. Solution for us is to keep him in the house when we're not home (he generally doesn't escape while we're here) with another dog for company. That would not work for a lot of people though. I have been blessed with some beautifully behaved, non-destructive dogs and they have the run of the house. We've never come home to anything other than a bit of rubbish scattered on the floor when we forgot to empty the bin.

Some large dogs don't need much exercise.....some working breeds (one of my Aussies as an example) don't need a lot, but conversely, some small breeds (Paps, JRT's etc) need LOTS of energy-sapping play and room to zoom. Some breeds need more "mind exercise" than others and a lot need a bit of both.

This is where buying from a good breeder can help....firstly they are quite careful to place the pup in the correct home, and secondly, they have the experience to match the puppy to the new owner, so the end result is a happy one, not one where the dog is in completely the wrong home for it's needs.

[Weasels]

Pet quality means it has a flaw that makes it unsuitable to continue the line/ represent the breed while still remaining a lovely dog who would be suited to a companion/ pet lifestyle. This is not to say they cannot excell at agility / obedience or anything else just that they do not meet the high standards of that breed, they may have a mismark, overbite/ underbite, medical condition (though I'd hope that's not too common) etc any number of reasons that just means your dog isn't the ideal to represent that breed.. Though I have a very limited understanding so I may be wrong

I think this is one of the reasons why Joe Public are wary of 'show people'. If you see a dog with beautiful temperament, multiple sports titles or a great working ability yet are dismissed as not worthy of breeding because they have floppy ears or a white blaze on their chest, people are going to question the value of the standard.

[Crisovar]

Pet quality means it has a flaw that makes it unsuitable to continue the line/ represent the breed while still remaining a lovely dog who would be suited to a companion/ pet lifestyle. This is not to say they cannot excell at agility / obedience or anything else just that they do not meet the high standards of that breed, they may have a mismark, overbite/ underbite, medical condition (though I'd hope that's not too common) etc any number of reasons that just means your dog isn't the ideal to represent that breed.. Though I have a very limited understanding so I may be wrong

I think this is one of the reasons why Joe Public are wary of 'show people'. If you see a dog with beautiful temperament, multiple sports titles or a great working ability yet are dismissed as not worthy of breeding because they have floppy ears or a white blaze on their chest, people are going to question the value of the standard.

If you don't breed to the standard the end result will not be a generic looking non breed dog. The standard is the blueprint, if we make it as we go along what is the point. The total package makes a great dog worthy of passing on its genes.