Rescue Lumping Breederswith Byb And Pet Shops

[mace]

Yes, I know the good rescues do a fine job, it's just me in the sense why I wouldn't adopt the classic cross breed from a rescue because I don't support the BYB system of random cross breedings, I guess I protest my dislike of this breeding system buy not owning one? I see rescue as a bit of a two edged sword, they are giving dogs a chance at life is what dog lovers do, but at the same token they are the BYB's greatest advocate to breed another litter. It's not like hey guys, were over run with BYB's looking for homes, tone the breeding down for a bit, the BYB say's look at all our marketing organisations how good is this, we will pump out a few more litters in that case?.

Rescue is not a byb advocate. No matter what lies byb spread around to suit themselves.

There are so many adult dogs needing homes compared to the number of homes available. These dogs need homes because whoever sold them in the first place didn't place the dog in the right home.

The lucky few make it into rescue, the rest are killed. Most. Thousands every year. Byb do not produce litters unless they think they can sell all the pups, rescue does not really come into it.

Remember that next time a byb talks shit about rescue.

A person can be anti-byb, and still recognise that by sheer luck some of the dogs that byb produce will be excellent dogs. While it doesn't suit everyone to buy a rescue dog, you cannot blame the dog for how it was produced, it deserves to be assessed on its own merits. Buying from rescue does not support byb or any other type of breeding. It just prevents a dog being put to sleep.

They are what the product is they promote, if an organisation markets Royal Canin dog food then obviously they support that product is what I mean, but when it comes down to trying on guilt trips to save a BYB which has been said to me many times, "why don't I get a nice dog from rescue instead of a pure breed puppy from a registered breeder", I don't want a BYB as the OP said, I didn't breed these poor dogs on death row, I hate that breeding system and would like to strangle some BYB'ers to be honest when so many doggy lives are taken by their stupidity of random breedings, I know rescues do it for the dogs and that I admire, but they are still peddling the BYB product for the most part?.

Another way I can explain my point, ok people know I am into dogs and often ask me about what they should do and BYB's often pop up, adds in the trading post, on the notice board at the shops, petshops whatever, but if they ask my advice I always steer them to a registered breeder of the breed or type of dog they like, no compromises, if they like the Labrador for example, ok lets talk to some experienced Lab breeders, I have helped many people seek breeders out, my vision is if you are serious about a dog, do it properly and get what you really want. Hey, I don't visit rescue's because I would take something home, I am as bigger sucker for that doggy face as every other dog lover regardless of breed, X breed or BYB, but the BYB system sucks IMHO and goes against my grain to support their products.

So once I get someone to the point of understanding that getting what they want from an experienced and reputable breeder is the way to go, I have been through the BYB thing, petshops and why it's best not to purchase from them, health tests, unknown parentage and faults in the bloodlines etc ect, they find a reputable rescue online peddling BYB's and crossbreeds......"oh yeah but this place here with all the nice pictures say these BYB's are lovely dogs looking for a home", then they are back on the Trading Post adds looking at BYB Labs for half registered breeder price

They don't want a dog from rescue, but because rescue are promoting BYB products, they think BYB must be a good thing in that case.........does what I am saying make any sense or is my thought process a bit warped

Anyway Merry Chistmas everyone, I need to go to bed ready for the big day

Edited December 24, 2011 by mace

[tdierikx]

I think I understand what you are trying to say mace... but I'm not entirely convinced of the argument behind your conclusion.

I'm of the opinion that the average Joe looking for a pet for their family is generally looking for the "best price" for same - and in more than a few cases, when that cute and cheap pup is no longer cute and hasn't had much training, grooming costs hadn't been factored in, etc - the easy option of taking said dog to a pound or shelter is there to relieve them of their "problem"...

The truth of the matter is that rescue go to the pounds and make selection of the dogs there based on a lot of factors - health and reasonable temperament are high on the list of which makes a dog "adoptable". We don't just grab whatever is there willy nilly. It's a crap job making those selections when you know exactly what is going to happen to those you can't take in. Then again, there are some dogs that really shouldn't be "saved" - and ethical rescue understand that too.

As for pups in rescue - most are either surrenders from "oops" litters from Joe Public, or from dogs that have come into rescue heavily pregnant from pounds. We try to make sure that those pups get the very best socialisation and vet checking for any health issues that may arise, then select new homes for them VERY carefully. In many cases rescue will assist the owners of bitches whose pups we take in get desexed - sometimes paying for it ourselves, or helping them find a vet that will do subsidised desexing.

BYB's survive and thrive due to the public's buying patterns - not because rescue are peddling their detritus.

I'm currently fostering 11 rescue pups - 7 from an "oops" litter (the bitch is being desexed), and 4 born in rescue from a bitch that came in to us pregnant. I'm just happy that none of these pups were ready to go to new homes before Christmas - as fending off the "my kids want a pup for Christmas" enquiries is a huge headache... *sigh*

May I also add that a pup from rescue has had quite a bit of socialisation, their current and future health needs have been identified, and prospective new families have been screened and fully appraised on what that pup will need from them over it's entire life - future socialisation, regular vet checks to make sure their pet will stay healthy, and/or grooming requirements if looking at a fluffy type, vaccinated, microchipped, desexed, etc. We show new owners how to check ears, eyes, teeth, feet, etc, the pups have been crate trained, partially toilet and obedience trained, etc. Your average BYB won't do that - they will happily sell to the first comer with the money... not to mention that rescue pups are generally cheaper to purchase than your average BYB pup - and we are happy to take the animal back if it's not a fit for the family for some unseen reason.

The biggest difference between a pup from an ethical rescue as opposed to one from an ethical breeder is the pedigree - the ethical breeder has a better idea of how their pups should turn out physically and temperamentally, but there are no absolute guarantees there either when you factor in how a pup is raised. All that either "source" can do with regards to that factor is to screen prospective new homes to the best of their ability and hope that their screening process has covered all bases.

T.

[Greytmate]

Yes, I know the good rescues do a fine job, it's just me in the sense why I wouldn't adopt the classic cross breed from a rescue because I don't support the BYB system of random cross breedings, I guess I protest my dislike of this breeding system buy not owning one? I see rescue as a bit of a two edged sword, they are giving dogs a chance at life is what dog lovers do, but at the same token they are the BYB's greatest advocate to breed another litter. It's not like hey guys, were over run with BYB's looking for homes, tone the breeding down for a bit, the BYB say's look at all our marketing organisations how good is this, we will pump out a few more litters in that case?.

Rescue is not a byb advocate. No matter what lies byb spread around to suit themselves.

There are so many adult dogs needing homes compared to the number of homes available. These dogs need homes because whoever sold them in the first place didn't place the dog in the right home.

The lucky few make it into rescue, the rest are killed. Most. Thousands every year. Byb do not produce litters unless they think they can sell all the pups, rescue does not really come into it.

Remember that next time a byb talks shit about rescue.

A person can be anti-byb, and still recognise that by sheer luck some of the dogs that byb produce will be excellent dogs. While it doesn't suit everyone to buy a rescue dog, you cannot blame the dog for how it was produced, it deserves to be assessed on its own merits. Buying from rescue does not support byb or any other type of breeding. It just prevents a dog being put to sleep.

They are what the product is they promote, if an organisation markets Royal Canin dog food then obviously they support that product is what I mean, but when it comes down to trying on guilt trips to save a BYB which has been said to me many times, "why don't I get a nice dog from rescue instead of a pure breed puppy from a registered breeder", I don't want a BYB as the OP said, I didn't breed these poor dogs on death row, I hate that breeding system and would like to strangle some BYB'ers to be honest when so many doggy lives are taken by their stupidity of random breedings, I know rescues do it for the dogs and that I admire, but they are still peddling the BYB product for the most part?.

Another way I can explain my point, ok people know I am into dogs and often ask me about what they should do and BYB's often pop up, adds in the trading post, on the notice board at the shops, petshops whatever, but if they ask my advice I always steer them to a registered breeder of the breed or type of dog they like, no compromises, if they like the Labrador for example, ok lets talk to some experienced Lab breeders, I have helped many people seek breeders out, my vision is if you are serious about a dog, do it properly and get what you really want. Hey, I don't visit rescue's because I would take something home, I am as bigger sucker for that doggy face as every other dog lover regardless of breed, X breed or BYB, but the BYB system sucks IMHO and goes against my grain to support their products.

So once I get someone to the point of understanding that getting what they want from an experienced and reputable breeder is the way to go, I have been through the BYB thing, petshops and why it's best not to purchase from them, health tests, unknown parentage and faults in the bloodlines etc ect, they find a reputable rescue online peddling BYB's and crossbreeds......"oh yeah but this place here with all the nice pictures say these BYB's are lovely dogs looking for a home", then they are back on the Trading Post adds looking at BYB Labs for half registered breeder price

They don't want a dog from rescue, but because rescue are promoting BYB products, they think BYB must be a good thing in that case.........does what I am saying make any sense or is my thought process a bit warped

Anyway Merry Chistmas everyone, I need to go to bed ready for the big day

What you are saying shows that you don't understand why you are sending people to regsitered breeders to buy pups.

Health tests, knowing the parentage, DNA tests etc are very important , because they allow a dog buyer to buy a puppy with the best possible potentlal. Potential is the only thing they can measure.

Whether that dog ever reaches it's potential cannot be known, but buy buying one of these ethically bred pups you have the best chance. So that is what ethical breeders so. They do it to try to predict the future of the pup.

An adult rescue dog has already reached its potential. It is what it is. Too late to care about what it's parents hip scores were because we can look at the dog in front of us and see what its hips are like. The future has arrived for the dog, guess work isn't needed. The tests that can be done on adult dogs are to determine what the dog is, and it is like, and are far more reliable than any breeder's test on a dog to see what it's puppies will probably be like in the future if they are raised perfectly.

Rescue do not push byb dogs. Their product is DOGS. And even random cross breeding has a chance of producing some good dogs amongst the average and the bad ones.

Byb have no quality control at all. They often sell really bad pups. Ethical breeders have quality control, they do all they can to sell good pups. Good rescue has good quality control, as all dogs are tested thoroughly. Buying a pup off a rescue is more of a risk, but it's still cheaper than byb.

Don't you understand? Pumping out quanities of poor quality pups and carelessly placing them means that there is a huge number of dogs that never make it past about nine months of age. They are dumped in shelters and pounds in their thousands in Australia.

Rescue make a decsion to take the best of these poor dumped dogs, retrain them, assess them, and match that dog's temperament with its new owner.

If you still don't understand, you might need to spend some time down at your loacl pound. Look at the dogs and know that most of them will die. They will die because they were not placed correctly in the first place. BYB did that to them.

Rescue try to save a few of these dogs, the best of these dogs. How anyone can say that it helps byb in any way is beyond me. Byb don't have a clue what happens to most of their dogs after sale, and don't care what happens to dogs nobody wants.

Next time anyone tells you that rescue will place their unsold pups, you might like to tell them what a pathetic and horrible piece of crap they are for choosing to burden a rescue organisation. To make more work for rescue. Don't just swallow whatever the byb tell you.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Greytmate

[Sheridan]

I support rescue and would be very happy with a rescue dog ... as long as it is a wheaten, kerry blue, irish or glen of imaal terrier.

People like the dogs they like. No amount of guilt tripping from fanatics will stop me from wanting the dog breeds I want.

[Alyosha]

But why is it suddenly unethical to create a dog breed now when it wasn't in the past? If anything it should be more humane now, since we can run genetic tests; understand non-mendelian and atypical patterns of inheritance; and have modern surgical techniques allowing sterilisation and rehoming of non-breeding stock (rather than a shot to the head or a bag of pups in the river). We even have the entire dog genome sequenced so we can continue to develop more tests as needed.

There are plenty of dogs in existing breeds that are classed as misfit outcasts (if by that you mean not appropriate to continue the line), they have perfectly lovely homes I can't think why we would need a new breed myself (unless I can find one that replies to my emails and does the dishes :rolleyes:) but as a hypothetical arguement I'm not seeing why it was OK then but not OK now.

For anyone interested in exactly this sort of process, some reading on the formation of the "Silken Windhound" breed might answer some questions. Here we have a modern, newly formed breed still working towards widespread recognition (recognised in Slovenia and Czech Rep. I think, and possibly provisionally with AKC?). It has been DNA mapped since the very beginnings, with foundation and any external stock used tested clear of genetic issues.

Yes, scrutiny and selection is tough and many produced pups don't become part of the ongoing breeding program. But as they are bred with care and regard, are a healthy and lovely breed they have no problem being desexed and homed as pets. The breed is promoted through their own society shows, coursing days and owner get-togethers.

It can be done ethically, but not for the reasons of making a buck or mass producing fluffy pups for the instant gratification of consumers - basically the historic reasons for the creation of so many modern breeds hold true.

[Gayle.]

But why is it suddenly unethical to create a dog breed now when it wasn't in the past? If anything it should be more humane now, since we can run genetic tests; understand non-mendelian and atypical patterns of inheritance; and have modern surgical techniques allowing sterilisation and rehoming of non-breeding stock (rather than a shot to the head or a bag of pups in the river). We even have the entire dog genome sequenced so we can continue to develop more tests as needed.

There are plenty of dogs in existing breeds that are classed as misfit outcasts (if by that you mean not appropriate to continue the line), they have perfectly lovely homes I can't think why we would need a new breed myself (unless I can find one that replies to my emails and does the dishes :rolleyes:) but as a hypothetical arguement I'm not seeing why it was OK then but not OK now.

For anyone interested in exactly this sort of process, some reading on the formation of the "Silken Windhound" breed might answer some questions. Here we have a modern, newly formed breed still working towards widespread recognition (recognised in Slovenia and Czech Rep. I think, and possibly provisionally with AKC?). It has been DNA mapped since the very beginnings, with foundation and any external stock used tested clear of genetic issues.

Yes, scrutiny and selection is tough and many produced pups don't become part of the ongoing breeding program. But as they are bred with care and regard, are a healthy and lovely breed they have no problem being desexed and homed as pets. The breed is promoted through their own society shows, coursing days and owner get-togethers.

It can be done ethically, but not for the reasons of making a buck or mass producing fluffy pups for the instant gratification of consumers - basically the historic reasons for the creation of so many modern breeds hold true.

The development of the Australian Mist cat makes interesting reading too. Dr Truda Straede developed the cat from Burmese, Abyssinian and tabby pound cats. She wanted traits from each and she eventually got there but it was a long road and thousands of kittens were born before the breed was officially recognised.

The story used to be online, not sure if it is anymore but I'm sure a google search would uncover it.

[Weasels]

Forgot to say Alyosha - I did read up on Silken Windhounds, they look like beatiful, healthy dogs And seem to fit the niche they were bred for.

Gayle I had a look at the Australian Mists too, interesting idea but I would need some more convincing that there is such a thing as a 'safe' cat for Australia (through inherent traits rather than responsible pet ownership anyway). But I could well be wrong, and I think it's good that they're trying

[Gayle.]

Forgot to say Alyosha - I did read up on Silken Windhounds, they look like beatiful, healthy dogs And seem to fit the niche they were bred for.

Gayle I had a look at the Australian Mists too, interesting idea but I would need some more convincing that there is such a thing as a 'safe' cat for Australia (through inherent traits rather than responsible pet ownership anyway). But I could well be wrong, and I think it's good that they're trying

The only safe cats in Australia are indoor cats. But she had a clear idea of what she wanted to achieve and she set out and did it. They now breed true, and she's introduced new patterns (marbling as well as spotting) and it's a very interesting exercise in genetics. But she did it by applying for a licence, outlining what she wanted to create, then used her knowledge to bring it about. She didn't start by crossbreeding indiscriminately then deciding she had some cute cats she wanted to make into a breed.

The "Australian" part of the name refers to the fact that they were developed here, I don't think it's got anything to do with it being a more suitable breed for this country.

[Weasels]

Forgot to say Alyosha - I did read up on Silken Windhounds, they look like beatiful, healthy dogs And seem to fit the niche they were bred for.

Gayle I had a look at the Australian Mists too, interesting idea but I would need some more convincing that there is such a thing as a 'safe' cat for Australia (through inherent traits rather than responsible pet ownership anyway). But I could well be wrong, and I think it's good that they're trying

The only safe cats in Australia are indoor cats. But she had a clear idea of what she wanted to achieve and she set out and did it. They now breed true, and she's introduced new patterns (marbling as well as spotting) and it's a very interesting exercise in genetics. But she did it by applying for a licence, outlining what she wanted to create, then used her knowledge to bring it about. She didn't start by crossbreeding indiscriminately then deciding she had some cute cats she wanted to make into a breed.

The "Australian" part of the name refers to the fact that they were developed here, I don't think it's got anything to do with it being a more suitable breed for this country.

I mentioned that because one of the breeder websites I read was marketing them as lower prey drive, and happy to be permanently indoors so therefore more suitable for Australia and to coexist with our wildlife. The indoors part is cool, but I'm struggling to picture a cat breed with low prey drive...

(although of course I've seen individual cats that are too lazy to chase anything!)

Edited December 27, 2011 by Weasels

[Gayle.]

Forgot to say Alyosha - I did read up on Silken Windhounds, they look like beatiful, healthy dogs And seem to fit the niche they were bred for.

Gayle I had a look at the Australian Mists too, interesting idea but I would need some more convincing that there is such a thing as a 'safe' cat for Australia (through inherent traits rather than responsible pet ownership anyway). But I could well be wrong, and I think it's good that they're trying

The only safe cats in Australia are indoor cats. But she had a clear idea of what she wanted to achieve and she set out and did it. They now breed true, and she's introduced new patterns (marbling as well as spotting) and it's a very interesting exercise in genetics. But she did it by applying for a licence, outlining what she wanted to create, then used her knowledge to bring it about. She didn't start by crossbreeding indiscriminately then deciding she had some cute cats she wanted to make into a breed.

The "Australian" part of the name refers to the fact that they were developed here, I don't think it's got anything to do with it being a more suitable breed for this country.

I mentioned that because one of the breeder websites I read was marketing them as lower prey drive, and happy to be permanently indoors so therefore more suitable for Australia and to coexist with our wildlife. The indoors part is cool, but I'm struggling to picture a cat breed with low prey drive...

My Maine Coon does. She'd let a mouse run over her paw without batting an eyelid. We can leave all the doors open and she might, if she can be bothered, venture as far as the threshold and as soon as the wind blows a leaf in to distance she bolts back inside and hides under a bed. The chooks have more prey drive than she does.

[Weasels]

My Maine Coon does. She'd let a mouse run over her paw without batting an eyelid. We can leave all the doors open and she might, if she can be bothered, venture as far as the threshold and as soon as the wind blows a leaf in to distance she bolts back inside and hides under a bed. The chooks have more prey drive than she does.

You must admit that isn't a breed trait though. Sounds like yours is broken ;)

[tdierikx]

My Maine Coon does. She'd let a mouse run over her paw without batting an eyelid. We can leave all the doors open and she might, if she can be bothered, venture as far as the threshold and as soon as the wind blows a leaf in to distance she bolts back inside and hides under a bed. The chooks have more prey drive than she does.

You must admit that isn't a breed trait though. Sounds like yours is broken ;)

Hahaha! Too funny...

T.

[Esky the husky]

ETA: Question was answered by a very helpful person :D

Consider this point moot

Edited December 27, 2011 by Esky the husky

[Clyde]

I'm struggling to picture a cat breed with low prey drive...

Persians! That's why I have 3 of them.

[elysia]

My crossbred dogs have been every bit as good as my regiztered pedigree dogs. this does not mean i encourage the intentional breeding of mutts, only that i find the assertion they cannot be as good as apedigreed dog inaccurate and offensive when i thknk of the mutts i have loved as family members.

[Weasels]

I'm struggling to picture a cat breed with low prey drive...

Persians! That's why I have 3 of them.

Aw cool

I'm perfectly happy to admit I've strayed out of my depth in talking about cats

[Roova]

Breeding cross breeds is a crapshoot. No predictability, no idea how big, how pleasant, how intelligent, how healthy a mutt will be, it's just guesswork

That would be quite true if one of the parents was an unknown, but for those deliberately breeding a toy poodle and a maltese for example, they could generally be quite sure the resulting pups will be small, reasonably intelligent, and as healthy and pleasant as the parents were (with human intervention helping). You know they're not going to be as big as or look like a greyhound for example.

Definitely there's predictability with looks and size with purebreds but even within one litter there can be different temperaments, size and health results. If every puppy was exactly the same you wouldn't need to go through a puppy selection process.

I don't thinks its fair to infer every crossbred litter is going to end up so far from the parents the pups will look and be nothing like them!

For those who want a pet only they might be quite happy with a pet which changes in looks as it grows. For those who want a pet who definitely looks a certain way, and hopefully behaves a certain way then pedigree all the way!

[Gayle.]

Breeding cross breeds is a crapshoot. No predictability, no idea how big, how pleasant, how intelligent, how healthy a mutt will be, it's just guesswork

That would be quite true if one of the parents was an unknown, but for those deliberately breeding a toy poodle and a maltese for example, they could generally be quite sure the resulting pups will be small, reasonably intelligent, and as healthy and pleasant as the parents were (with human intervention helping). You know they're not going to be as big as or look like a greyhound for example.

Definitely there's predictability with looks and size with purebreds but even within one litter there can be different temperaments, size and health results. If every puppy was exactly the same you wouldn't need to go through a puppy selection process.

I don't thinks its fair to infer every crossbred litter is going to end up so far from the parents the pups will look and be nothing like them!

For those who want a pet only they might be quite happy with a pet which changes in looks as it grows. For those who want a pet who definitely looks a certain way, and hopefully behaves a certain way then pedigree all the way!

I didn't infer that at all, but in your example, a poodle and a maltese.....the resulting pups might look like a poodle, or might look like a maltese. Might have a poodle conformation and a maltese coat, or vice versa. Might be at the taller end of the toy poodle spectrum, might be tiny like a small maltese. Might shed, might not shed. Might have a straight coat, might have a curly coat. Any idea of the colour? Nope, me either. Poodle colour genetics are a science unto themselves, mix them with a maltese and anything could happen. Might be intelligent, but who can say? Mixing two intelligent breeds doesn't guarantee intelligent offspring.

Take a toy poodle and mate it with another toy poodle and you'll get a small dog of high intelligence, with a curly non-shedding coat, of a predictable colour if you know what colours the parents carry (and a good breeder would know this), who will grow up to look like it's parents, grandparents and every other well bred toy poodle ever born.

[Steve]

We would hope that we all have the same hope or value as to what we want for every dog which is born. Our ethics and what we deem ethical are singular logically deduced self chosen and self created by each of us and is based on what we have experienced and are exposed to.

All further inward logic and externally expressed behaviour is manipulated to conform to and be logically consistent with the self-created ethic.

Some pretty smart people have looked at this and haven't really gotten to determine what ethics are so its fair to conclude that many of us would posses no greater knowledge.

Each of us truly believes that we know what ethics are and we are self-convinced that we know more than the smartest, the most experienced people we meet.

The whole of a person's life revolves around a system of ethics that controls their logic.

But defining what is or is not ethical is not only an individual exercise. If it were then we could argue what someone like Hitler did was ethical because his actions were a result of what he thought was right,fair and good.

So clearly the ethics of our decisions are judged and defined by society and the group we belong to.

When you belong to one group who has particular goals or you have developed a way of explaining what is logical in order to attain or prevent something your definition of ethical HAS to be different to someone who has decided upon a different goal or a different cause of a problem.

So telling someone that an ethical breeder or ethical rescue should behave in a certain manner ensures a couple of things.

One is they can't imagine why you would call the person they have decided is ethical un ethical.

The second is that within any group there are subgroups so what you assume everyone in the group is doing certain things because you believe them to have the right goals.Nothing could be further from the truth.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

Forgot to say Alyosha - I did read up on Silken Windhounds, they look like beatiful, healthy dogs And seem to fit the niche they were bred for.

Gayle I had a look at the Australian Mists too, interesting idea but I would need some more convincing that there is such a thing as a 'safe' cat for Australia (through inherent traits rather than responsible pet ownership anyway). But I could well be wrong, and I think it's good that they're trying

The only safe cats in Australia are indoor cats. But she had a clear idea of what she wanted to achieve and she set out and did it. They now breed true, and she's introduced new patterns (marbling as well as spotting) and it's a very interesting exercise in genetics. But she did it by applying for a licence, outlining what she wanted to create, then used her knowledge to bring it about. She didn't start by crossbreeding indiscriminately then deciding she had some cute cats she wanted to make into a breed.

The "Australian" part of the name refers to the fact that they were developed here, I don't think it's got anything to do with it being a more suitable breed for this country.

I mentioned that because one of the breeder websites I read was marketing them as lower prey drive, and happy to be permanently indoors so therefore more suitable for Australia and to coexist with our wildlife. The indoors part is cool, but I'm struggling to picture a cat breed with low prey drive...

(although of course I've seen individual cats that are too lazy to chase anything!)

Ragdolls have a low prey drive. While the Australian Mist cat was being developed Truda was treated pretty poorly by other breeders - though the Australian dog world seems to have a monopoly on treating anyone who wants to have a go at a new breed poorly and as criminals.