Dog Killed With Capsicum Spray- Melbourne

[mita]

If you are being threatened with legal action the very first thing any lawyer will tell you is to keep your mouth shut, regardless of evidence.

Fair point, megan.

[geo]

Sadly for the owners they're left thinking the last minutes of their dogs life was horrible, and the council can't account for their behavior.

Basically it seems if you have a big dog and it gets out, no matter how friendly he may be, he is going to be treated differently and seen as a higher risk for ACO's so they're going to use more force..

But the thing is you don't need force, you need to be smart and calm, seriously i wonder what the employment policy is of some councils when advertising for ACO's!

If my boy got out and there was a man chasing him, he'd freak, if it was a woman chasing him he'd be fine (he prefers ladies over men)... but out of their comfort zone we can never know exactly how our dogs will behave, or the people around them.

[jaymatt]

Mita, my thoughts exactly ...my sister's beautiful shepherd that is so friendly often has people cross the road rather than walk past him while on lead and walking with my sister. It's more than likely if ever he ended up in someones yard(not that this is likely to happen) the council could be contacted, declaring a dangerous dog is in their yard.

Enter, police, rangers, cornering, catching poles...who know'show a frighten dog would react... and why are they refusing to hand over reports and not allowing the ranger to be interviewed ?

[huck house]

Seriously, hysteria, the slow but sure degradation of the human- canine bond and the societal demands for a perfect world is creating a mean, unsympathetic , punitive attitude toward any loose dog.

There wouldn't be many situations requiring the extreme measures used on Hector.

My council ranger didn't know what an English bull terrier was , he had to ask twice what breed Teddy was. If compliance officers do not understand or are not interested in dogs, they won't care or handle situations as well as they could or should.

[ncarter]

Seriously, hysteria, the slow but sure degradation of the human- canine bond and the societal demands for a perfect world is creating a mean, unsympathetic , punitive attitude toward any loose dog.

There wouldn't be many situations requiring the extreme measures used on Hector.

My council ranger didn't know what an English bull terrier was , he had to ask twice what breed Teddy was. If compliance officers do not understand or are not interested in dogs, they won't care or handle situations as well as they could or should.

off topic, but last time i checked there was no ANKC breed called an English Bull Terrier. Your confusing the poor bloke!

Edited December 20, 2011 by ncarter

[Blackdogs]

Seriously, hysteria, the slow but sure degradation of the human- canine bond and the societal demands for a perfect world is creating a mean, unsympathetic , punitive attitude toward any loose dog.

There wouldn't be many situations requiring the extreme measures used on Hector.

My council ranger didn't know what an English bull terrier was , he had to ask twice what breed Teddy was. If compliance officers do not understand or are not interested in dogs, they won't care or handle situations as well as they could or should.

Agreed.

[sandgrubber]

Seriously, hysteria, the slow but sure degradation of the human- canine bond and the societal demands for a perfect world is creating a mean, unsympathetic , punitive attitude toward any loose dog.

There wouldn't be many situations requiring the extreme measures used on Hector.

My council ranger didn't know what an English bull terrier was , he had to ask twice what breed Teddy was. If compliance officers do not understand or are not interested in dogs, they won't care or handle situations as well as they could or should.

Agreed.

If anyone is to blame for the deterioration of the human-canine bond, I'd say it's dog owners.

When and where I grew up most dogs were free to roam. There were problems (turned over rubbish bins, a daschund who went through cat doors and raided kitty food, an epileptic dog who scared the pants of us kids . . . etc.), but not life threatening . . . because dogs were socialized, and an a-social dog wandering would have resulted in the owners being verbally attacked by their neighbours. . . or their dogs getting shot.

It's not like that any more. Fewer people home during the day. People move more and don't know their neighbours, or the neighbours dogs. More poorly-socialised dogs dumped in yards with inadequate fences . . . just read the General Forum. Dog owners are forever complaining about the wandering, unsocial neighborhood dogs. It may only be a few percent of the dog population, but they sure make life miserable for everyone else.

It's not fair to expect the Rangers to mop up this mess. Where I lived in WA the rangers had low wages and got stuck with most of the Council chores that required going out on the street, including policing verge plantings/obstructions, checking that people had cleared fire lines, and handling a wide range of neighbours complaints. Turnover was high.

If you want quality dog services in your community, you must get involved . . . and you and your neighbours must be willing to see a small increase in their rates. It's not cheap to run a quality dog pound and hire an crew of experienced and well qualified dog catchers.

[Tapua]

Seriously, hysteria, the slow but sure degradation of the human- canine bond and the societal demands for a perfect world is creating a mean, unsympathetic , punitive attitude toward any loose dog.

There wouldn't be many situations requiring the extreme measures used on Hector.

My council ranger didn't know what an English bull terrier was , he had to ask twice what breed Teddy was. If compliance officers do not understand or are not interested in dogs, they won't care or handle situations as well as they could or should.

Agreed.

If anyone is to blame for the deterioration of the human-canine bond, I'd say it's dog owners.

When and where I grew up most dogs were free to roam. There were problems (turned over rubbish bins, a daschund who went through cat doors and raided kitty food, an epileptic dog who scared the pants of us kids . . . etc.), but not life threatening . . . because dogs were socialized, and an a-social dog wandering would have resulted in the owners being verbally attacked by their neighbours. . . or their dogs getting shot.

It's not like that any more. Fewer people home during the day. People move more and don't know their neighbours, or the neighbours dogs. More poorly-socialised dogs dumped in yards with inadequate fences . . . just read the General Forum. Dog owners are forever complaining about the wandering, unsocial neighborhood dogs. It may only be a few percent of the dog population, but they sure make life miserable for everyone else.

It's not fair to expect the Rangers to mop up this mess. Where I lived in WA the rangers had low wages and got stuck with most of the Council chores that required going out on the street, including policing verge plantings/obstructions, checking that people had cleared fire lines, and handling a wide range of neighbours complaints. Turnover was high.

If you want quality dog services in your community, you must get involved . . . and you and your neighbours must be willing to see a small increase in their rates. It's not cheap to run a quality dog pound and hire an crew of experienced and well qualified dog catchers.

I think getting involved in the community is one of the issues people avoid regarding Dogs. Regarding the policing of safety around dogs IMO Aussies are pretty apathetic about community issues - (except on chat forums maybe )

I agree with both of you regarding a social change or intollerance towards dogs. There are so few good dogs stories and so few who believe a healty happy family pet is achievable without huge expense to buy a dog tested so every inherited condition is clear or not a risk and every behavioural issue can be trained out. The tolerance for a dog just to be a dog, piss on a tree, play ball with a kids and eat your slippers requires major behavioural consultation to assess if his pissing insnt excessive, or a dominance behaviour disturbing the morning walk onlead, or that the dog doesnt hurt the child jumping for the ball or swollow the ball causing vet bills and that the slipper chewing isnt an indication of separation anxiety. (in my house its a dietary suppliment )

I cant fix the problems other indivuals create by their negligence and ignorance but I can be responsible for my critters. I would love to see more public education and general community education as for local communities - I wonder if people in their local community with knowledge about dogs can share it by writing articles in their local papers regarding safety around dogs, how to approach dogs safely and how to avoid getting bitten. The debating regarding who is breaking which rule and how they must be punished will always go on - I wonder if a proactive positive information in th community might help inform non-dog oriented people (even though they own a dog) how to live safely with their pets.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Tapua

[Dame Aussie]

I do understand Govt red tape, but if the dog really was acting as they say, then why not allow the information (autopsy, cctv footage, reports from rangers etc) to be released. By making things more difficult they are only making it appear they are at fault. They may not be, or they may be - at the moment there is no real way to know but the longer it goes on, the more it looks like a cover up IMO. Hopefully the owners get some answers soon. They must be devistated.

Yes, it was disappointing that the rangers wouldn't even discuss it with the RSPCA Inspector.

It's impossible to arrive at any conclusions based on the few facts that seem to be clear.

Terribly sad case and I can understand the owner's grief and wish for further information.

BP, I agree with you about the vulnerability of the big dogs for being viewed differently, & so treated differently, when on the loose.

But accidents happen in the best of circumstances (look how my 2 precious tibbie girls were let out!).

My hope, tho', would be that any big dog (who's really a good dog in normal circumstances) would be lucky, and meet people who are dog savvy enough not to leap to conclusions based only on their size. And I include rangers in that.

Just a general comment (& not about this particular case), I wonder what kind of training in dog behaviours and management rangers get.

I have seen cases where no-one was available so parking inspectors from the council were sent out to do the rangers job. Most of the actual rangers I met hadn't a clue. That is why I don't necessarily trust their judgement on dog behaviour.

[mita]

Mita, my thoughts exactly ...my sister's beautiful shepherd that is so friendly often has people cross the road rather than walk past him while on lead and walking with my sister. It's more than likely if ever he ended up in someones yard(not that this is likely to happen) the council could be contacted, declaring a dangerous dog is in their yard.

Enter, police, rangers, cornering, catching poles...who know'show a frighten dog would react... and why are they refusing to hand over reports and not allowing the ranger to be interviewed ?

Absolutely, jaymatt. On the day I saw the loose, huge (biggest I've seen!) Rottie, I asked the people inside the library to help....& described the dog and the danger he was in. The only men in the library went deaf & almost hid under a table. Four of us women went out to do something. Two librarians, a young woman and me, all experienced & caring dog owners.

As I've explained, the Rottie was a sweetie.....suspicious of us strangers at first. But as soon as I crouched & called him 'darling', his face lit up. Here was friends!!!! 'Can you sit, sweetheart?' asked one of the other women. ' Sweetheart' obeyed with a thud, right on my foot!! The librarians led him off to their office to wait for his owners (ID on collar).....using a piece of string as a lead!!!

I'm not arguing for people to be foolhardy or to place themselves in danger when there's pretty clear signs of that.

But my first impression of the huge Rottie was how well-kept he was, in excellent condition, and wearing a handsome collar where his ID tags could be clearly seen. Chances were, we thought, that was a well-cared for dog, well socialised with his owners. Just like your sister's shepherd would be.

We didn't corner him or 'go at him'. And he responded to the cues he already knew so well.....people are OK, especially when they call him 'darling' & 'sweetheart'!

Edited December 21, 2011 by mita

[jacqui835]

Mita, my thoughts exactly ...my sister's beautiful shepherd that is so friendly often has people cross the road rather than walk past him while on lead and walking with my sister. It's more than likely if ever he ended up in someones yard(not that this is likely to happen) the council could be contacted, declaring a dangerous dog is in their yard.

Enter, police, rangers, cornering, catching poles...who know'show a frighten dog would react... and why are they refusing to hand over reports and not allowing the ranger to be interviewed ?

Absolutely, jaymatt. On the day I saw the loose, huge (biggest I've seen!) Rottie, I asked the people inside the library to help....& described the dog and the danger he was in. The only men in the library went deaf & almost hid under a table. Four of us women went out to do something. Two librarians, a young woman and me, all experienced & caring dog owners.

As I've explained, the Rottie was a sweetie.....suspicious of us strangers at first. But as soon as I crouched & called him 'darling', his face lit up. Here was friends!!!! 'Can you sit, sweetheart?' asked one of the other women. ' Sweetheart' obeyed with a thud, right on my foot!! The librarians led him off to their office to wait for his owners (ID on collar).....using a piece of string as a lead!!!

I'm not arguing for people to be foolhardy or to place themselves in danger when there's pretty clear signs of that.

But my first impression of the huge Rottie was how well-kept he was, in excellent condition, and wearing a handsome collar where his ID tags could be clearly seen. Chances were, we thought, that was a well-cared for dog, well socialised with his owners. Just like your sister's shepherd would be.

We didn't corner him or 'go at him'. And he responded to the cues he already knew so well.....people are OK, especially when they call him 'darling' & 'sweetheart'!

That's a great ending, and that dog is just so lucky that you and the other ladies happened to be in the area. Can you imagine what would have happened had authorities approached with sticks in their hands and trying to corner him?

[huck house]

ncarter, the compliance officer asked what type of 'bull terrier' the dogs are and he was looking at them.

Sandgrubber, that is the point . Dogs had many more opportunites to socialize and practice avoidance . During the early 80's in Canberra dogs were always out busy . So were the pound . They would have made a lot more revenue than now. Our bassett hound and next doors Labrador were always out, playing with kids at school , hanging at the chicken shop,gardening with old ladies

everywhere. as kids we knew which streets and dogs to steer clear of. German shepards were popular and territorial in the high income suburbs. 'pig dogs' , bull terriers were the pit dog of choice , tough dogs were the rotties and dobes.

Not many situations arising needing the extreme measures deployed in this case. Media hype, lack of education , dogs

left unsatisfied is creating the perfect storm.

[huck house]

Just adding i agree that council is stretched and now under qualified to deal with new legislation in Victoria .

Taupa, you are right , it's about community education at a very basic level. . Understanding that dogs are not 'sharks on legs'

[Fuzzycuddles]

Mita, my thoughts exactly ...my sister's beautiful shepherd that is so friendly often has people cross the road rather than walk past him while on lead and walking with my sister. It's more than likely if ever he ended up in someones yard(not that this is likely to happen) the council could be contacted, declaring a dangerous dog is in their yard.

Enter, police, rangers, cornering, catching poles...who know'show a frighten dog would react... and why are they refusing to hand over reports and not allowing the ranger to be interviewed ?

Absolutely, jaymatt. On the day I saw the loose, huge (biggest I've seen!) Rottie, I asked the people inside the library to help....& described the dog and the danger he was in. The only men in the library went deaf & almost hid under a table. Four of us women went out to do something. Two librarians, a young woman and me, all experienced & caring dog owners.

As I've explained, the Rottie was a sweetie.....suspicious of us strangers at first. But as soon as I crouched & called him 'darling', his face lit up. Here was friends!!!! 'Can you sit, sweetheart?' asked one of the other women. ' Sweetheart' obeyed with a thud, right on my foot!! The librarians led him off to their office to wait for his owners (ID on collar).....using a piece of string as a lead!!!

I'm not arguing for people to be foolhardy or to place themselves in danger when there's pretty clear signs of that.

But my first impression of the huge Rottie was how well-kept he was, in excellent condition, and wearing a handsome collar where his ID tags could be clearly seen. Chances were, we thought, that was a well-cared for dog, well socialised with his owners. Just like your sister's shepherd would be.

We didn't corner him or 'go at him'. And he responded to the cues he already knew so well.....people are OK, especially when they call him 'darling' & 'sweetheart'!

stories like this are amazing

[sumosmum]

I wonder if this lady will ever get any answers. This Pound doesn't have a great track record with dogs. There was another dog story where an owner wanted to get answers from them over her Central Asian Shepherd last year, and as far as I remember, she couldn't find out much information either. I believe the owner of Pirate, the CAS, had spent 10s of thousands with Solicitors trying to get info and still was not having much luck. This dog was supposed to have been stolen from the pound.

I have heard there have been quite a few other questionable things that have happened there as well. There seems to be a lot of complaints about this place, although I don't know any more than what is written in this article on this particular event.

[sandgrubber]

ncarter, the compliance officer asked what type of 'bull terrier' the dogs are and he was looking at them.

Sandgrubber, that is the point . Dogs had many more opportunites to socialize and practice avoidance . During the early 80's in Canberra dogs were always out busy . So were the pound . They would have made a lot more revenue than now. Our bassett hound and next doors Labrador were always out, playing with kids at school , hanging at the chicken shop,gardening with old ladies

everywhere. as kids we knew which streets and dogs to steer clear of. German shepards were popular and territorial in the high income suburbs. 'pig dogs' , bull terriers were the pit dog of choice , tough dogs were the rotties and dobes.

Not many situations arising needing the extreme measures deployed in this case. Media hype, lack of education , dogs

left unsatisfied is creating the perfect storm.

Similar scene in my younger days . . . right down to the Labrador and the Basset seeking out kids. But things have changed.

It's one thing to have a free range dog when Mum stays home most of the time and you have a quarter acre block. It's a lot more tricky when both parents work, or Mum is a working single mum, and Dad lives elsewhere, school yards are fenced and not so many oldies are out gardening, and, thanks to urban infill, the 1/4 acre has become 300 or 400 sq m. KIds do a lot less wandering too, and the dogs can't get their exercise by tagging along with the kids or trying to join in the soccer game in the park.

Education sounds much better than law enforcement, but how? where? what? who's going to pay for it? It's going to take more than handing out pamphlets or putting up a website. How do you find people with mita's ability to read the big dog and turn bluff aggression into wags, cuddles and slobber. How do you get them employed through a Civil Service system and pay them adequately to keep them working. It would be require a very clever programmer to create a computer game that realistically captured dog body language for major dog types / breeds and allowed people to learn to deal with them through play . . . and the market probably wouldn't accept the liability (what if the real world LGD doesn't behave like the simulated dog and someone gets attacked? Do this result in a law suit?).

Sorry to be pessimistic, but I don't see things improving without much more involvement on the part of dog owners . . . and a lot more social pressure against dog ownership by people whose lifestyles don't leave time and space for a dog.

[huck house]

Sandgrubber, Agreed, times have changed, a cliche that is unfortunately not for the better. I had a ' red dog' cattle/bull terrier cross ' for 15 years in a newscastle . She died 2 years ago. Moved to Melbourne , a year later we ended up with two 'rescue' bullies both three years old.

What an eyopener. I had not caught on about changing attitudes toward dogs. I thought Newcastle council were just anti everything, banning dogs from cafes etc etc. Thinking Melbourne was going to have a ' European ' attitude , dogs being allowed in the botanic gardens, parks etc. , the last 12 months has blown us away .

Prior to Ayen Chol's tragic death , peoples attitude towards our dogs was fearful even hostile . Our new neighbours were sure they were a banned breed, drivers giving us filthy looks even when we are all in the car. After the incident , it escalated dramatically. Resisting hysteria is difficult, as we need to keep these dogs visible and represented in a positive light.

Education has to be equal in cost of what is being spent now onenfotcemeny

[BJean]

Poor dog. However, owners often think their dog is "gentle" but they don't take into account that in stressful situations even the most laid-back dog can be aggressive.

Absolutely and with a guarding breed they can act very differently with strangers than with their owners. The normally gentle giant can become a very dangerous animal with strangers. I also wouldn't call them a gentle breed. The first one I ever saw was in the group line up at a major Royal show and it sunk it's teeth into the owners hand in the ring when they tried to stack it.

Poor dog but the problem here is the owners allowing a large guard breed to escape. If you choose to own a powerful scary looking dog you have to assume that the public and even the pound officials might over react when they see it so it is vital to keep the dog contained for it's own safety.

I do not think your pound officials are 'over reacting' -

your pound officials (sic) have no idea how to handle dogs.

Capsicum spray?

I used to think jokes about Australia being on the arse end upside down side of the Earth were unfounded and unjust ...

Edited December 21, 2011 by lilli

[mace]

This is an aweful situation to have a dog die in custody of the pound, but I think the owners efforts would be better spent learning how to keep their next dog in and prevent it from escaping, regardless what happened they can't bring that dog back, what's done is done.

I don't how the rangers could escape interview from an RSPCA inspector, I would have though the RSPCA had more power to demand an interview?

Edited December 21, 2011 by mace

[Guest lavendergirl]

This is an aweful situation to have a dog die in custody of the pound, but I think the owners efforts would be better spent learning how to keep their next dog in and prevent it from escaping, regardless what happened they can't bring that dog back, what's done is done.

I don't how the rangers could escape interview from an RSPCA inspector, I would have though the RSPCA had more power to demand an interview?

I was wondering about that too - can anyone just refuse to speak to the RSPCA even if complaints have been made against them??