Is This A Lost Cause?

[jaybeece]

My boy's always been touchy with other dogs, although has improved out of site over the past couple of years so when I advertised for a new housemate and a good sounding one said she has a dog I said we can give it a try.

Things have been going fairly well, they'd met twice before she moved in and my boy wasn't too bad, hers was lovely. There were some tense moments initially, but after going on some walks together and hanging out in the back garden things seemed really good.

She moved in on Friday and today the dogs had a fight So far they've been seperated and had supervised time together in the back garden and mine has been wearing a muzzle as I'm taking no chances. He did instigate the fight, but my housemate's dog fought back a bit (don't blame him) and I ended up dragging mine off into the shed with her dog attached and seperating them with the door.

Very little damage done, my dog just has a small cut below his eye which would have been the result of being used as a tug toy while I dragged him away.

I don't know what set him off. One moment it looked like they may play, the next he'd growled and done a small lunge and it was all on. It was mostly noise but I honestly don't know what to expect from them now, will they be more likely to arc up or will that have settled something? I know they're still in the getting to know wach other phase so can expect some hiccups, is this just a hiccup? Or a sign that this may not work out? I know a lot about managing my one dog, but I don't know what's ok and what's not ok in the interactions between 2 dogs.

More importantly I don't know if we can move forward from this He's lived with a couple of foster dogs in the past but on the one or 2 occasions when he got his nose out of joint they just rolled over and no harm done, everything settled. I'm worried that he'll remember the fight and be reactive towards her dog now. Or maybe I'm totally wrong and he now won't try anything on because he knows he can't push this dog around? I just don't know I don't know enough about my own dog's interactions with others as in the past if this had happened I'd just not take him near the same dog again, maybe that was a mistake because it was part of them figuring each other out? Fark I have no idea.

These 2 have been seperated ever since, it's easy to keep them apart in this house but I don't think it's an ideal long term solution.

I know some may say it's behaviourist time but I'm so far from having the cash it's pathetic and my housemate is willing to move out if the dogs don't gel because she was aware there could be a potential issue when she moved in. I'd be sad if it came to that though as she's lovely and I'd love for my boy to have company.

Any ideas or advice?

[Clyde]

I've had boys fight and they get over it. It's two bitches I find don't get over it so quickly. Same with us humans really :D

[Talien]

Probably just sorting out who gets to play with the toys first, I wouldn't worry about it just yet

[Tralee]

Hi jayceebee

I have two dogs and two bitches and it takes foresight and experience to keep the tension to a minimum.

Fortunately, most of the time they get along swimmingly and they only needed to be separated when the bitches are in season and when feeding them of course.

However, there are many triggers that can set one dog off against another.

Who gets to say hello first.

Which dog is closer to 'daddy'.

Is 'daddy' angry with another dog.

Who has the toy, etc.

It is interesting that only this week has my big dog entertained 'his boy/son' in a game of chase.

He has been aloof and stubborn most of the last 5 years.

I find the younger dogs spark up in reaction to the big dogs and that is what I aim to manage.

My approach has been to keep the younger dogs 'respectful' to the older dogs but still accept them on their terms.

It is a learning curve but I will maintain that the best thing for a dog is another dog.

I should point out that dog fights are classed as animal cruelty so a learned head on calm shoulders is needed.

I am sure you can do it, and you and your dog and your flatmate and her dog will be richer for the experience.

Px

Edited December 18, 2011 by Tralee

[Clyde]

I should point out that dog fights are classed as animal cruelty so a learned head on calm shoulders is needed.

Not if it's unavoidable. It's not as if Jaybeece is setting one dog upon another. I don't get why you would bother even mentioning that

[Staff'n'Toller]

I guess as a short term thing the sorts of things you can try are:

Keep them separated for a good while but do on lead walks every day together. Move them apart if they are showing signs of stress, but parallel walking is excellent for letting dogs run through their body language, show calming signals and get to know each other in a non-threatening way. I can't stress enough how valuable this sort of exercise is to dogs.

Both of you brush up on your training and mat or crate train so that you are telling the dogs how they should behave or what they should do in the house when unrestricted together (later on).

Make a huge emphasis of the dogs focusing on their owners and heavily reward that whenever your dogs are crossing paths. Always, always reward either dog for showing calming signals or trying to avoid confrontation with the other *nb this may not be possible in the beginning if it heightens tension through resource guarding.

Install DAP diffusers in the house and think about trying the DAP collars for both dogs.

It could simply be your boy feeling territorial. This might simmer down or it may never work, I wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water but what I would do is keep them separated for now and discuss plans with your housemate for how they should interact in the house later.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller

[sheena]

Would you be able to muzzel both dogs for a while till they get to sort each other out. My BC girl got into a fight with Candy, my daughters maltese x, when Bindi was very young. After 4 years, we still can't put the two together as Candy walks around growling & bitching till Bindi can't stand it any longer....& then it's on. We call Little Miss Bitch, Candy, the fun police. It's the only dog that Bindi does not get along with.

ETA...good advice S & T

Edited December 18, 2011 by sheena

[persephone]

I guess as a short term thing the sorts of things you can try are:

Keep them separated for a good while but do on lead walks every day together. Move them apart if they are showing signs of stress, but parallel walking is excellent for letting dogs run through their body language, show calming signals and get to know each other in a non-threatening way. I can't stress enough how valuable this sort of exercise is to dogs.

Both of you brush up on your training and mat or crate train so that you are telling the dogs how they should behave or what they should do in the house when unrestricted together (later on).

Make a huge emphasis of the dogs focusing on their owners and heavily reward that whenever your dogs are crossing paths. Always, always reward either dog for showing calming signals or trying to avoid confrontation with the other *nb this may not be possible in the beginning if it heightens tension through resource guarding.

Install DAP diffusers in the house and think about trying the DAP collars for both dogs.

It could simply be your boy feeling territorial. This might simmer down or it may never work, I wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water but what I would do is keep them separated for now and discuss plans with your housemate for how they should interact in the house later.

[Tralee]

I should point out that dog fights are classed as animal cruelty so a learned head on calm shoulders is needed.

Not if it's unavoidable. It's not as if Jaybeece is setting one dog upon another. I don't get why you would bother even mentioning that

Hi

That would be in the Guide for Care and Management from the State CCC

2.1.2 Provision of protection for dogs, as necessary, from adverse natural or artificial

environmental conditions, other animals and unwarranted interference from humans.

2.1.5 Protection of dogs as far as possible from disease, distress and injury.

I believe jayceebee asked about the managemnet of the dogs and not what is unavoidable.

I think the fact dogs fight is a given.

Px

[mace]

Males I have found have a greater tolorance to get over a fight than females and move on, so adapting two males into the household I think is an easier task to repair after a scrap. I would have them both muzzled for saftey sake and gradually allow them to interact on leash in the back yard with two handlers in a relaxed manner but watch for body language and stress, if that occurs, move them apart and distract them to focus on the handlers. Importantly regular short interactions I think is best, start off with a 5 minute interaction then separate them for a while, then bring them back together again for a little longer increasing the time on each interaction. Keep it calm to begin with and don't excite the dogs with vigorous play, nice and calm, sit on the grass with the other handler, have a chat with the dogs in a drop, give them a pat so they get used to each other's presence in the yard so especially the reactive dog learns that the other dog being there is nothing he needs to worry about.

I think it's extra important for the handlers not to stress during the interactions, if they are muzzled and on leash they can't hurt each other and you have control of the situation, it takes a little time and patience, but I have had a couple of shockers in the past with severe DA that have come around to accepting another dog and have become good mates, there is no guarentee, dogs are dogs, but it's worth a good try. Generally of they have a dust up showing some bite inhibition on the first fight and they didn't appear to be trying to kill each other, you have a better chance of fixing the problem, sometimes these male scraps although sound vicious are just sorting out the boundaries where things are at flexing a bit of muscle.

Edited December 18, 2011 by mace

[jaybeece]

My housemate does have a muzzle for her dog so I'll see if she's happy to use it, she's really reasonable so I don't see why not.

Thank you for the reassurance Staff'n'Toller and Mace (and others, iPhone makes it hard to look)! It wasn't a serious fight but of course fights are always unpleasant. I hope it simply served to iron out some wrinkles rather than create them, we'll go for more walks and the crate aspect is a great idea! I have one in the living room and didn't even think to use it (duh!), it was wonderful when introducing the cat so it'll certainly help with another dog.

Dap diffusers could be great too as my boy is the nervy type who could probably benefit fm them in general so I'll see if I can afford one.

Tralee I doubt that this form of dog fight falls under animal cruelty as it was not intentional and steps are being made to prevent them. I don't understand where you were going with that and don't appreciate the implication that there's cruelty involved with the care of dogs in my house.

[Aidan3]

I guess as a short term thing the sorts of things you can try are:

[JulesP]

How big is the other dog Jaybeece?

[megan_]

I was going to ask that too JulesP. My two (boy and girl) have had one tiff and no more. However, it was all noise, no one was hurt and all it took from me to separate them was an "OI!!!" and a stamp of the foot (had to limp for a week though). I haven't had any problems since but I never had to pull one of the other.

How is your boy with dogs in general? Sometimes fights are a one-off and sometimes some dogs just don't like living with other dogs.

[jaybeece]

The other dog is medium sized, I'd say he's around 20kg. Mine is 37kg.

My boy is often not great with other dogs but he has coexisted before. I have wondered if he really liked it although he does love having another dog to play with.

This fight wasn't one that was likely to be broken up with a yell unfortunately, that's what's really worried me

[Nekhbet]

you never ever let muzzled dogs off lead with one another, it builds frustration and muzzled dogs can grip and head bash another. Crate and rotate, set a pattern and a lot of time on lead play together/walks etc. Sounds like neither dog really has a pecking order set so you two need to put your foot down and be the boss of them. DOnt leave toys out there with them, food or bones either. The new dog is settling in, you're wanting your dog not used to this whole situation to accept a new human AND canine (and your dog is a bit protective of you) so you need to give it time. They can get along it comes down to management and training them that things will be like this from this point on. Set your expectations and stick to them. From the sounds of it the fight was a lot of noise and BS on their behalf. Your dog is not used to another dog standing up for itself and hence you hear this noise.

SEPARATE

SUPERVISE

CONTROL AND REWARD POSITIVE INTERACTION

I never leave two new dogs out in the yard together anyway for quite a while until a house routine is established.

Most of all go buy yourself a stiff drink and have a lie down ;) I know its scary my rottie and bordeaux decided it was on for young and old once, but that was 50kg vs 60kg latched onto each others necks and thrashing down the back steps.

ETA if you do not have vocal control of your dog to call it off you do not let them off lead. Your dog is your partner Jaybeece but he's the type that takes advantage of your kind heart and nature. He needs you to grow a set of balls as it were lol not being mean just really firm and not give an inch.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Nekhbet

[jaybeece]

Thank you Nekhbet, I can always rely on you to be the voice of common sense and reason

I'm gonna print out what you said and give it to my housemate so we're on the same page, thankfully she's kinda rad and the sensible type who will have no problem with it.

I'm feeling a lot more positive about it all now, we have 2 dogs who are really lovely on their own and total soooks who just need to sort their shit out together. I think if handled properly (ie. not the way we've been doing it) they could potentially be good mates once they've figured each other out and where they stand.