Aidan

[huski]

And if you have a dog that is not 'driven' to work for you and doesn't have a high value for the rewards you offer?

There are a million reasons why a dog may not be driven to work for the handler, and there are a million ways to increase the dog's desire to work for you and the rewards you offer. Simply looking at a dog and saying 'meh, it's got no interest in the handler, rewards obviously won't work for this dog' is really naive.

[raineth]

ok I'm quite confused about a lot of this thread,

itsadogslife, are you saying that a dog set up on the long-line using the Koehler method, will find that method intrinsically rewarding because it is figuring out for itself what leads to punishment and what doesn't?

[itsadogslife]

itsadogslife, are you saying that a dog set up on the long-line using the Koehler method, will find that method intrinsically rewarding because it is figuring out for itself what leads to punishment and what doesn't?

Yes. Although I would modify the above by saying that what the dog learns is that the consequences of his behavior are within his ability to control. Hence it is the dog's own actions which bring about reward or punishment. It is the dog's ability to control the consequences through his own action that brings reward. It is no different for any animal (including humans) in my view, the ability to control one's environment through one's own agency is itself intrinsically rewarding.

[itsadogslife]

There are a million reasons why a dog may not be driven to work for the handler, and there are a million ways to increase the dog's desire to work for you and the rewards you offer.

Indeed, and one of those ways (amongst others) is to work the dog on a long line.

Simply looking at a dog and saying 'meh, it's got no interest in the handler, rewards obviously won't work for this dog' is really naive.

I agree, hence I wouldn't say such things.

[raineth]

itsadogslife, are you saying that a dog set up on the long-line using the Koehler method, will find that method intrinsically rewarding because it is figuring out for itself what leads to punishment and what doesn't?

Yes. Although I would modify the above by saying that what the dog learns is that the consequences of his behavior are within his ability to control. Hence it is the dog's own actions which bring about reward or punishment. It is the dog's ability to control the consequences through his own action that brings reward. It is no different for any animal (including humans) in my view, the ability to control one's environment through one's own agency is itself intrinsically rewarding.

ok gotcha.

So are you arguing that Koehler long line (and similar koehler training methods I presume) are the only way the dog is given agency?

[itsadogslife]

ok gotcha.

So are you arguing that Koehler long line (and similar koehler training methods I presume) are the only way the dog is given agency?

I can only explain the principles that are at work in Koehler. As for other methods I have no opinion. I simply do not accept nor see any compelling reason why I should accept the description of what is going according to behaviorism. I do not accept the principles on which behaviorism rests.

[Kavik]

Now while I have done philosophy at Uni, I really don't understand how this debate over mind/body/spirit has anything to do with dog training?

Choice, yes I understand that.

IMO I love shaping due to how it teaches the dog to think and work out things.

[raineth]

ok gotcha.

So are you arguing that Koehler long line (and similar koehler training methods I presume) are the only way the dog is given agency?

I can only explain the principles that are at work in Koehler. As for other methods I have no opinion. I simply do not accept nor see any compelling reason why I should accept the description of what is going according to behaviorism. I do not accept the principles on which behaviorism rests.

ok, and thank you for answering my questions, I'm understanding you better I think.

here's another one :p

so say you clicker trained a dog to touch its nose to your hand. You accept that something about the clicker training has caused your dog to learn this behaviour, you just don't think that behaviourisms explanation for how this learning occurred is correct?

although I have a feeling you won't answer that because you have no opinion other than Koehler methods.

I am not familiar with koehler methods... If long-line training teaches a dog to pay attention to where its human is, what is your explanation for how it learns to do this? :)

[itsadogslife]

here's another one

so say you clicker trained a dog to touch its nose to your hand. You accept that something about the clicker training has caused your dog to learn this behaviour, you just don't think that behaviourisms explanation for how this learning occurred is correct?

A method that is based on the principles of behaviorism will more often than not be best explained by those principles. Assuming of course, that the method works. If it doesn't, then it may or may not be appropriate to reconsider one's ideas in regards to the dog's behavior.

I am not familiar with koehler methods... If long-line training teaches a dog to pay attention to where its human is, what is your explanation for how it learns to do this?

The dog is put into a situation created by the long line which offers two different consequences, one good, one bad. It does not take long for the dog to work out (on his own) that paying attention to the handler is the better option as opposed to not paying attention which can result in being caught at the end of the line.

[Aidan3]

here's another one

so say you clicker trained a dog to touch its nose to your hand. You accept that something about the clicker training has caused your dog to learn this behaviour, you just don't think that behaviourisms explanation for how this learning occurred is correct?

A method that is based on the principles of behaviorism will more often than not be best explained by those principles. Assuming of course, that the method works. If it doesn't, then it may or may not be appropriate to reconsider one's ideas in regards to the dog's behavior.

I think you might need to understand behavioural science a bit more before this sort of discussion can really go anywhere.