Is It Illegal To Sell Pups Under 8 Weeks?

[Steve]

My mums are all caring and clean and hover over their babies but there are many variables which have a huge impact on the outcome.

Puppies that are kept with their Mum's post 7 weeks and are always underfoot and in human company have a different outcome to puppies which are with their Mum in a kennel where they get less human interaction or not with their Mum post 7 weeks and are under foot or not with their Mum and get little human interaction.

Puppies which are with their litter with Mum and without Mum are different, Puppies which are isolated from their litter at 7 weeks are different to those which renmain with the litter post 7 weeks.

The best advice a breeder can give a new owner is to start the way you intend to continue. Every household and every family have different variables and the best outcomes occur when the pup knows what is expected of it and the normal day to day functioning of the household it has to live in. At around 7 weeks these things start to make an impression on a puppy so it begins to think that what happens now will happen for ever. its already learned how to act like a dog ,know its place etc as its learned these things pre 7 weeks with its Mum and its litter but post 7 weeks it has to learn what humans expect of it and the closer to 7 weeks you can do this the easier it is for the pup and the family.

Thats not saying that waiting another week is a bad thing its simply saying if the pup goes home at 7 weeks it isnt a bad thing either.

So when you come to discuss puppies in pet shops being sold at 7 weeks much depends on how much human interaction they are getting, how many other puppies they are locked up with what sort of new homes they will go to etc before there can be a determination on whether going to a new home at 7 weeks is somehow cruel .In fact the reality is that it may be better for the pup in a pet shop with little socialisation and too much interaction from its litter mates walking through its own poo etc to go home sooner rather than later.

Its also impacted by what breed the puppy is. In my breed - Maremmas which work by bonding with the animals they live with the sooner they are exposed to that the quicker they are able to be trusted to do their job. Breeders who dont have to comply with regulations as I do send their puppies to their new homes as early as 4 weeks because the theory is that working Maremmas dont need to know how to act around other dogs and they dont need to be socialised with humans as much as pet dogs do. Im too soft to send mine out that young even if I could and I also beleive that working dogs still need to be handled and socialised by humans too.

I take deposits and treat each pup differently depending on what the pup is going home to I set up situations around here which replicate where they will be when they go home and begin moving them into that at 4 weeks by 7 weeks they are separated from their litter and know more of what to expect when they go home. Im not doing a pup any favours by having it in my lounge room in airconditioned comfort if its going home to 24/7 living in a paddock with sheep in 40 degree temps. If Mum is working with sheep ,chooks,etc I send the pup out into the work place with her and dad as these guys train the pup on what is and isnt acceptable behaviour around their animals in quick time and that also helps the pup as it moves into its new role when it goes home.

As a breeder I ask questions about where the pup will live and sleep and what it will do in its day to day life and begin preparing it for that in the 7th week .thats why when someone buys one as a pet which will sleep inside and have lots of cuddles I get to treat it as my personal snuggle mate for that last few weeks while the others hang out with the sheep.

My point is - if we are to derter people form buying puppies in pet shops or non registered breeders and if we are going to state a good case against them being there in the first place we need to get past the propoganda and argue with facts.

Whether we should allow breeders to make their own informed decisions on when it is best to send their puppies home rather than over regulate and compel us into doing things which dont necessarily have the best outcome for our pups because now and then a breeder might want to move their pups out quicker is another subject. When we get emotional and argue because it makes us "so sad - because the poor babies still need their Mum's at 7 weeks" fact is they dont - its easy to argue against - even right down to the wording of the canine control's codes of conduct - puppies cant go home until they are 8 weeks "in order to allow the 6 week vaccination to cut in" These days most breeders dont vaccinate at 6 weeks and the vaccines only need a day or two.

If we are serious about turning it around and stopping the sale of puppies in pet shops there are lots of things which can be used against it and make a good case but when it is influenced by emotional assumptions and easliy disproven comments people simply stop listening and then everyone who is agaisnt the sale of animals in pet shops is tagged as rednecks and not worthy of being listened to.

[Tralee]

Hi

There are always three considerations which need to be canvased when making determinations about when to home a puppy.

Which practise, in which situation, with which dog will be the most efficacious.

As steve has intimated, rescuing young pups is different to placing good dogs in good homes.

When it comes to Breeders, I think we have to allow the community to judge them on their outcomes.

I don't subscribe to the 'early age proposal' and specifically with my dogs I follow the Italian's lead.

The Breeders who I consult do not release their dogs until 10 weeks of age.

This I think is relevant to the great demands placed on the dog.

Working dogs in Italy work with other dogs, other people and often traverse through the rural community.

They must be dog and people tolerant as well esteemed workers.

Out last litter, Arawn Caergwydion Litter, were all retained untill 10 weeks of age.

However, the pups were out in the paddock with the other dogs, and had human interaction on and off-site.

The feedback I have recieved sways me considerably towards continued socialisation until ten weeks old with litter mates, mum and siblings. http://webs.dogs.net.au/arawn/homed-puppies.asp

Of course, Arawn Caergwydion Heraldus could not be delivered until 12 weeks because he went overseas.

So for my approach, different breeds/dogs will have various needs and requirements when age of homing is to be considered.

Px

Edited December 17, 2011 by Tralee

[Steve]

Hi

There are always three considerations which need to be canvased when making determinations about when to home a puppy.

Which practise, in which situation, with which dog will be the most efficacious.

As steve has intimated, rescuing young pups is different to placing good dogs in good homes.

When it comes to Breeders, I think we have to allow the community to judge them on their outcomes.

I don't subscribe to the 'early age proposal' and specifically with my dogs I follow the Italian's lead.

The Breeders who I consult do not release their dogs until 10 weeks of age.

This I think is relevant to the great demands placed on the dog.

Working dogs in Italy work with other dogs, other people and often traverse through the rural community.

They must be dog and people tolerant as well esteemed workers.

Out last litter, Arawn Caergwydion Litter, were all retained untill 10 weeks of age.

However, the pups were out in the paddock with the other dogs, and had human interaction on and off-site.

The feedback I have recieved sways me considerably towards continued socialisation until ten weeks old with litter mates, mum and siblings. http://webs.dogs.net...med-puppies.asp

Of course, Arawn Caergwydion Heraldus could not be delivered until 12 weeks because he went overseas.

So for my approach, different breeds/dogs will have various needs and requirements when age of homing is to be considered.

Px

How many of these went to working homes ?

[Leema]

The latest science tells us its better for a pup to go to a new home at 7 weeks

I'd be interested in those citations Steve.

Go to google - its every where.

While I agree with Steve - I don't think it's particularly heinous for puppies to their new homes prior to 8 weeks - I couldn't find any articles through Google scholar that indicated any science on the socialisation experiences of puppies.

Steve, if you can provide some specific citations, that'd be great. I am keen to read them.

[OSoSwift]

I would not like a puppy I was buying to stay with it's litter or not be rehomed to me until it was 10 to 12 weeks of age.

[Steve]

Steve, if you can provide some specific citations, that'd be great. I am keen to read them.

Lots of them are pre internet.

Most references for studies date back to the late 50's. A Dr. JP Scott did studies on puppies development at the Roscoe B Jackson Memorial Laboratory and these studies are the foundation of all the modern training methods used today a puppy's development,

Studies by Pfaffenberger and Scott also appeared in 1959 in the Journal of Genetic Psychology entitled, "The Relationship between Delayed Socialization and Trainability in Guide Dogs."

Freidman, King and Elliot published in 1961 in Science entitled, "Critical Periods in the Social Development of Dogs." Or it could have been any of a long list of papers by Scott and his co-workers beginning about 1944 and culminating in the book published in 1965 by John Paul Scott and John Fuller, "Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog." This book, later published under a slightly different title, brought together more than 20 years of study of dog socialization processes done at the Roscoe B. Jackson Memorial Laboratory at Bar Harbor, Maine. The study was massive, utilizing hundreds of dogs-wirehaired fox terriers, cocker spaniels, African basenjis, Shetland sheepdogs and beagles. Scott was a leading animal behaviorist, one of only a handful in North America at the time; Fuller was a geneticist, more interested in the genetic potential for the occurrence of a behavior than in its development.

Additionally there were many students working toward advanced degrees, post-doctoral students and student volunteers, all interested in animal behavior, most specifically in domestic dogs.

Based on the results of Freidman, King and Elliot, Scott suggested two rules for producing well-balanced, well-adjusted dogs. The first of these is that the ideal time to produce a close social relationship between puppy and master occur between six and eight weeks of age This is supposedly the optimal time to remove it from the litter and make it into a house pet. Done earlier, the pup hasn't enough opportunity to form social relationships with other dogs, but would be very attached to people. At the other extreme, if exposure to people is delayed to 12 or more weeks of age, the pup will have a good relationship with dogs but will be timid and have less confidence with people.

If puppies have very little or no previous human contact, seven weeks is conservative-six weeks would be a better age to get the pup The only case I can imagine with no people exposure today is a puppy mill.

Given that these puppies are most likely to be the ones in a pet shop at this age then in consideration to what is best for the dog there is little benefit in having it stay in a pet shop with its litter mates any longer than it has to – unless it is going to a home which will have less human but more dog interaction.

There is also valid argument to suggest that in many situations where dogs are no longer used for the purpose for which they were originally bred where they need more dogs in their lives than people and that many live as pets only especially ones coming out of pet shops that it may be preferable if they go home at 7 weeks rather than later.

However, again I say there are many variables including breed specifics and how puppies are managed by a breeder [and new owners] to simple tell the world that all puppies should go home at any age.

All of our puppies [and puppies of breeders who adhere to mandatory codes- including commercial breeders] stay with us until they are 8 weeks old and it appears we are stuck with it so it's up to the breeder to do the right thing to ensure the pup gets enough human and less dog interaction for that period. Can a breeder who has a couple of hundred dogs ensure every pup between 7 and 8 weeks gets this kind of human one on one? Does a breeder who breeds dogs for profit have the motivation to put in the extra human interaction? Would it be better for the pup to allow them to send them home a week earlier because they are destined to be someone's pet and they cant provide them with what they need for that week pre home placement?

Should a puppy be in a pet shop with its litter mates at that time of its life waiting for some magical day they have to adhere to via regs or laws ? NO BLOODY WAY.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Steve

[ncarter]

you say the latest science steve but this stuff is 50+ years old. Surely there has been a decent study done on this topic in the last 10 or 15 years?

[Steve]

you say the latest science steve but this stuff is 50+ years old. Surely there has been a decent study done on this topic in the last 10 or 15 years?

The only stuff Im aware of was Goddards which more about genetics and I dont have the time to go looking - University of queensland has done some too which point to early socialisation issues but the reality is that its always just been generally accepted and all training and puppy development is based on it . Dunbar, Volhard and most articles and books written on testing, puppy behaviour and development use this time line .

These people use it and experience it , write about it and teach it .It is acccepted as valid and it only seems to be different among those who have simply assumed this is what is needed based on what they have heard via animal rights. It only became a different protocol after the CC said no placing puppies for 2 weeks after vaccination - necessary at that time - not necessary for that reason now.

As a breeder and dog owner Im more interested in my own studies which go on before my eyes on a daily basis and what I see works best which addresses the variables I have to work with including the breed specific issues I have to consider. Im not trying to push this as the recently scientifically proven. Im simply saying that yelling about this is not going to improve our chances of winning points against puppies in pet shops because any body can see that there may be a valid argument for sending some home earlier.

[Leema]

Thanks for the links, Steve. I have read Scott and Fuller and Pfaffenberger, but some of the other authors are unknown to me. I'll do some reading.

[Steve]

Thanks for the links, Steve. I have read Scott and Fuller and Pfaffenberger, but some of the other authors are unknown to me. I'll do some reading.

At the end of the day no study is going to replace what a good breeder knows or a rescuer who has had orphaned pups and pups with mothers to observe .Studies do a quick clip pf one variable. It comes down to knowing your breed, Knowing the kind of owners they will live with and how they will be expected to live and perform. It takes knowing that these things can impact on a puppy and treating them accordingly before they go home. But in all honesty Id like to think that you can assume someone who puts puppies in pet shops hasn't a clue about these things and if the pups are destined to live as pets it may be better to get them away from the breeder and into their new homes sooner rather than later.

There have been some more recent studies [slabbert and Rasa] ring a bell on how well trained working dog mothers are able to train their puppies to work but thats when they are put to work with their Mums and not just hanging out with a litter. These are things which are important to me and something Ive looked at pretty closely but Ive also observed it here with my working dogs. If I put a pup with an older dog which is working sheep it makes no difference if the older dog is its Mum or not .[The studies were only done with the mothers] The older dogs teach the pup things and correct the pup if it if it steps out of line. If I put the pup with an older dog for periods of this kind of training at around 7 weeks the pup goes home with a huge advantage for working with that species over those who dont. Im lucky because I have several different species here with Maremmas working them so if Mum is working sheep I can still put a pup going to a chicken farm with an older dog which is working with chickens. I can do this because my dogs are well socialised with other dogs as well as the animals they work with .I can have several dogs working one mob in one paddock without fear they dont get on,I can swap them around and they accept the change in working partners. They are also well sociialised with humans - but none of this is by accident . Its because Ive done my own studies and lived with and followed up with the results .

With my beagles I ask what environment they will be sleeping in and whether they will live with other dogs etc and that also determines how I manage them in the last week before they go home to prepare them for the life they will walk into.

Fact is puppies dont necessarily need their Mum's at 7 weeks - by then unless she is teaching the pup how to work her job is pretty much done ,she is telling them to rack off and get their own food and the milk bar is turned off.

they already know how to interact with other dogs and they need human socialisation or in the maremma case more contact with the species they will live with if thats not human more than anything. its better for the dog if the breeder knows these things and ensures they are covered but if the breeder is an idiot and has little regard for these things it just may be better to get em out of there and into new forever homes.

[WreckitWhippet]

I don;t consider myself to have been brain washed by animal rights, but I certainly wouldn;t be selling any of my pups at 7 weeks, regardless of the being a Canine Council member or not. My babies are still feeding from the bitches at 7 weeks (although they are also eating and drinking on their own ), there is a huge change in just the simple things like their movement, play, desire to interact etc, between 7 and 9 weeks and I think they benefit greatly from staying those extra couple of weeks.

They leave home bold and ready to tackle the world, rather than reserved 7 week old, that really aren't "self sufficient". I completely agree with the toy breeders who keep theits until around 12 weeks.

[Steve]

I don;t consider myself to have been brain washed by animal rights, but I certainly wouldn;t be selling any of my pups at 7 weeks, regardless of the being a Canine Council member or not. My babies are still feeding from the bitches at 7 weeks (although they are also eating and drinking on their own ), there is a huge change in just the simple things like their movement, play, desire to interact etc, between 7 and 9 weeks and I think they benefit greatly from staying those extra couple of weeks.

They leave home bold and ready to tackle the world, rather than reserved 7 week old, that really aren't "self sufficient". I completely agree with the toy breeders who keep theits until around 12 weeks.

Yes but that's due to the way you manage them for that period of time and the sort of homes you place them in - puppy farmers who sell to pet shops wouldnt do what you do. And its still breed specific - some do better staying longer others dont .

The puppies being discussed by the OP are already away from their Mum - I dont see any benefit for them in staying where they are any longer than they have to.

[Greytmate]

For breeders that like to match the pup's temperament to the new owners, or determine likelihood of adult conformation, 6 weeks may be too early to let the pups go.

That won't happen in a pet shop at any age.

[hilaryo]

I don;t consider myself to have been brain washed by animal rights, but I certainly wouldn;t be selling any of my pups at 7 weeks, regardless of the being a Canine Council member or not. My babies are still feeding from the bitches at 7 weeks (although they are also eating and drinking on their own ), there is a huge change in just the simple things like their movement, play, desire to interact etc, between 7 and 9 weeks and I think they benefit greatly from staying those extra couple of weeks.

They leave home bold and ready to tackle the world, rather than reserved 7 week old, that really aren't "self sufficient". I completely agree with the toy breeders who keep theits until around 12 weeks.

Totally agree Pav Lova!

[Tralee]

How many of these went to working homes ?

Well hello steve.

Out of the five, three went exclusively to working homes.

Lumen went to www.pondaestate.com.au where he keeps dogs off baby doll sheep,

Gemelli is on farm at www.byronbeans.com.au

and Heraldus is in Hawaii protecting goats www.diamondtlivestock.com

Here's the link to their records http://webs.dogs.net.au/arawn/homed-puppies.asp

Florenza has gone down to Sunbury near Allarme Maremmas and Schaferden Kennells and is being shown and held for breeding.

Spiritus is a companion dog in Brisbane.

I always have many calls from people looking for a working dog.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Tralee

[Steve]

How many of these went to working homes ?

Well hello steve.

Out of the five, three went exclusively to working homes.

Lumen went to www.pondaestate.com.au where he keeps dogs off baby doll sheep,

Gemelli is on farm at www.byronbeans.com.au

and Heraldus is in Hawaii protecting goats www.diamondtlivestock.com

Here's the link to their records http://webs.dogs.net...med-puppies.asp

Florenza has gone down to Sunbury near Allarme Maremmas and Schaferden Kennells and is being shown and held for breeding.

Spiritus is a companion dog in Brisbane.

I always have many calls from people looking for a working dog.

Interesting - small litter too. Obviously Ive placed them in working homes later as well as at 8 weeks and while the older ones still do what is expected of them it takes a while longer than it does those which start at 8 weeks or sooner here. I certainly see a difference with the ones which stay if they are introduced to the species they will be working with sooner rather than later.