Breeding Of Cream Poodle With Black Points

[Gayle.]

Perhaps I've used the wrong terminology. I saw it used on another site - it refers to black eyeliner and black nose.

Thanks - I think I'll go elsewhere to find the information, this site sounds rather clique and unfriendly.

For breed specific information, see if there are any Facebook groups for Poodle breeders or enthusiasts. I've learned more from a FB group for my breed than I ever learned from DOL, going to shows or being part of a club. If you can find one that includes long term breeders from various countries, breed judges and handlers, you'll find you'll learn a fair bit just from reading the various discussions.

[Bullbreedlover]

Got to bite, yes someone had to. Are you just breeding for color or for the breed? Are you planning on show homes or pet homes for the pups (is a good temperament crucial to the pet surviving in the world?)? Are you a member of a breed society? Is mum registered?

If you are going to breed surely quality of sire and dam are 100 time more important than preserving coat or point color!!!! If mum has genetic issues, temperament issues, health issues (not saying she does just playing suppose) then why breed anyway. On the other hand are you going to pass up a sire with perfect health, perfect genetics but the 'wrong color'???? I see far to many dogs that were bread for 'rare color' end up in bad places (i.e. the pound or the vet surgery or in their 15th home)as the breeder didn't care about temperament or health just color. Remember to start puppy training early, and socialize!!!

I learned a long time ago that a good horse is never a bad color. I think this applies to dogs as well!!

Just a short rant

In your opinion a good horse is never a bad colour but in my opinion a dogs colour as per the Standard is there for a reason. Genetic issues can arise from bad colour genes.

Just as I wouldnt breed from a dog that had less than desireable health issues, I would also never breed from a dog whose colour was considered a fault within a breed. This in my opinion is just as unethical.

I cant understand your post. You seem to contradict yourself.

Preserving coat or point colour is called breeding to the Standard on that particular issue. Whilst no one will ever breed the perfect dog according to that Standard if you discount colour then dont breed.

If a dogs Standard has no specific colour stipulations(ie, all colours permissible) then that is fine)

[benshiva]

glad it may be just a language thing - I imagined a poodle looking like a siamese cat, points-wise

That's how I read it as well. My bad Never heard of pigment being called points before.

Hope the OP finds the info she's after

[Bullbreedlover]

Except BA that in this case if the OPs cream poodle has recessive liver and she breeds to a brown poodle she could end up with cream puppies with liver pigmentation (I think), which is outside the breed standard, so colour is an important consideration if she wants to breed to the standard.

Obviously not as important as the health and temperament of the parents!!

In the eyes of an ethical breeder breeding to the standard it is important as cream poodles should have a black nose, lips and eye rims.

It is one part of the standard sure. But it is still important

As per my previous post, I would never breed from a dog, no matter how near to perfect it may be if it is of the wrong colour or if that colour may compromise my breeding programme to a particular dog.

[Rozzie]

Got to bite, yes someone had to. Are you just breeding for color or for the breed? Are you planning on show homes or pet homes for the pups (is a good temperament crucial to the pet surviving in the world?)? Are you a member of a breed society? Is mum registered?

If you are going to breed surely quality of sire and dam are 100 time more important than preserving coat or point color!!!! If mum has genetic issues, temperament issues, health issues (not saying she does just playing suppose) then why breed anyway. On the other hand are you going to pass up a sire with perfect health, perfect genetics but the 'wrong color'???? I see far to many dogs that were bread for 'rare color' end up in bad places (i.e. the pound or the vet surgery or in their 15th home)as the breeder didn't care about temperament or health just color. Remember to start puppy training early, and socialize!!!

I learned a long time ago that a good horse is never a bad color. I think this applies to dogs as well!!

Just a short rant

Jeeze assumptions much. Did you actually read the OP???

[redial]

Alot of good breeders breed for both type and colour.

Edited December 11, 2011 by redial

[Kirty]

Oh damn, I was actually really excited to see a siamese-looking Poodle!

[Blackdogs]

If you go on ANY internet forum and post the same post you will get exactly the same responses. That's because there are many more backyard breeders out there than there are people breeding for the betterment of the breed. If you are showing your dogs and have taken conformation, temperament and health in to account but still want to understand the basics of genetics to add to your gene pool, then there's no problem, but perhaps you should specify that to avoid negative responses. If you know nothing about the aforementioned attributes and are breeding for colour alone, then the world is full of unwanted dogs being bred for trivial reasons and we don't need any more to add to the pet overpopulation problem.

Here, breeding for the hell of it is not tolerated, but I'm sure you're not silly enough to be doing that. You seem intelligent enough to understand the importance of a considered breeding program, therefore why not just state your full intentions so you can recieve the advice you want from well educated people?

[Gayle.]

I thought she DID state her full intentions.....she wants to breed to keep the black pigment (points).

[Gayle.]

Actually in a few breeds (mine included) breeding for colour is very important. If a standard lists certain colours only, rich, clear colours, certain pigments with certain coat colours.....then you need to take that into consideration in selecting your breeding stock. It's as important as selecting for other traits.

[redial]

A lot like Great Danes, BC's, Kelpies etc The wrong colour can mean a dog is unregisterable.

[Bullbreedlover]

I googled and came up with this easy receipe to follow...

It wasnt hard to find

I get a LOT of calls and email's asking about color breeding. People want to know what color puppies they will get if they breed this color to that color. What people do not seem to understand is that when dealing with colors in poodles and poodle genetics NOTHING is certain. All you can do is make a guess. With some research and knowing the background of your lines, one can make a more educated guess, but once again its just a guess.

I have spent a lot of time and effort to study pedigrees and colors but even I am still learning. Especially when it comes to the multi colors its all still a guess.

Vet gen does have a DNA test that will supposedly tell you the color genes that your dog carries. I will warn people that you should never bank all your money on that test. I have known of quite a few people that have tested their dogs and gotten strange colors in their litters that were not even talked about in the test. I am also unsure if this test takes into account the multi colors.

I am going to take this page and talk about what I have learned and what I have had personal experience with colors. As I said before, nothing is certain, HOWEVER...there are some important DOS and do NOTS to color breeding.

First off what you personally are breeding for in color, is what you have to take into account. Just throwing 2 poodles together and hoping for the best is NOT good breeding practices. Once you have established that two dogs are proper breeding material and that they offset each others faults, then you have to take into account, color compatability and what you are working towards in color. Most reputable breeders you will find will specialize in certain colors. Trying to work on too many colors at once can become frustrating and confusing, even though the temptation is great! Just throwing 2 colors together can seriously destroy the colors and their points (pigment of the nose, lips, eye liner, and pads are considered the points).

Remember when talking about points that, Browns, Cafe Au Lait, and Silver beige should ALWAYS have liver color points. Where the breed standard states that liver is ACCEPTABLE in reds it is NOT preferred and really and truly should be looked upon as a fault in my opinion.

All other colors should have black or self colored points.

ANOTHER POINT TO CONSIDER

Many colors are considered to be fading colors and will carry with them the fading gene automatically. These should be remembered before thinking about your breeding program

Colors that are considered fading colors are: EVERY COLOR BUT BLACK! That means BLUE, SILVER, BROWN, CAFE AU LAIT, SILVER BEIGE, RED, APRICOT, CREAM, and WHITE. This also comes into play when talking about Multicolors and mixes of the above colors. You can pretty much count on a Sable ALWAYS carrying the fading gene and that the puppy will not stay the color that it is when it is born.

THINGS TO KNOW ABOUT COLORS IN POODLES

*Please do remember (and sometimes I even forget this rule), BLACK IS DOMINATE TO EVERYTHING!!!!!!

*When thinking breeding in your program and what color is best to mate with your dog, you must remember when studying your dogs pedigree for colors that you also have to take into consideration the colors of the siblings of each dog. There may be a color hidden there that you did not know about and need to consider. Its a good way to tell the recessive color genes in your dog.

*Most people are noticing that blues seem to carry the gene for ALL COLORS. This includes the parti colors. This is why many breeders think blues are a great basis for a breeding program, depending of course upon what colors you are breeding for.

*The dogs being bred must carry the gene for that specific color in order for the puppies to be that color. For example, you will NOT get a parti colored puppy out of a dog that does NOT carry the gene for parti.

*A color bred dog refers to a dog that has predominately only THAT color in their background.

*A hybrid color bred dog refers to a dog that has predominately only 2 colors in their background. Such as a black/red hybrid or a black/brown hybrid.

DO NOTS

Here are some serious DO NOT's that you should think about when breeding poodles.

DO NOT breed BROWN, CAFE AU LAIT, or SILVER BIEGE (Brown shades) to the following colors: RED, APRICOT, CREAM, or WHITE. Mixing of these colors will cause incorrect pigment on the points since the brown shades have liver colored points and Red, Apricot, Cream, and White should all have jet black points.

DO NOT breed REDS or APRICOTS to the following colors:

SILVER or BLUE. Breeding red or apricot to silver causes the color to fade even more than they already do as the silver and blue colors carries the fading gene. True I have bred blue to red before due to the fact that was what I had to work with at the time. But if you are truly working to deepen and darken reds and apricots and produce beautiful dogs that hold their color, you do not want to introduce any more of the fading gene into these already fading colors than you have to.

When breeding BROWNS, to keep them dark and reduce fading and taking the above rules into account, DO NOT breed to the following colors: BLUE, SILVER, CAFE AU LAIT, SILVER BEIGE. These colors once again will introduce the fading gene into your browns that you are trying to keep dark.

When breeding for icy whites DO NOT breed to the following colors: APRICOT and CREAM. These colors will ad a yellowish tone to your whites. However, there are some breeders out there that do breed for creams and off whites by using these color combinations.

DOS

Here are some very important DOS that you should think about when breeding poodles.

Other than the absolute DO NOT's listed above, how you combine colors totally depends upon what your end goal color is in your breeding program.

When breeding REDS, to keep them dark, to reduce fading, and keeping the points nice and jet black, DO breed to the following colors: RED and BLACK. When using a black every few generations in a red breeding program you will hopefully help to keep dark points on the puppies and also to darken their color. HOWEVER, be very careful what colors are in the background of said black that you do not inadvertently introduce more of the fading gene. I would pick a black that has an all black only background or even better a black that has an all red and black only background (black/red hybrid). Many people consider a color bred red to have apricot in the background. This is because apricot is a dilute of red so still in the same color family. HOWEVER, do not forget that this apricot causes more fading gene to be present in your reds, so the fewer apricots used the better to keep the color.

When breeding BROWNS, to keep them dark and to reduce fading, DO breed to the following colors: BROWNS and BLACK. Breeding true blacks to a brown is a great way to help reduce the fading that we see in most browns. HOWEVER, once again be very careful what colors are in the background of said black that you do not inadvertently introduce more of the fading gene.

When breeding WHITE, to keep the color icy white and keep the points jet black DO breed to the following colors: WHITE, SILVER, BLUE and BLACK. Remember white is already a fading color so breeding it to another fading color will not hurt the color. You really do have to be careful when breeding whites as it is easy to loose the pigment in the points. Putting a Silver, Blue, or Black in the background will help to keep these points nice and dark.

When breeding for SILVER you will want to breed to the following colors: SILVER, SILVER BEIGE, WHITE, and BLUE. Your best chances exist when one parent being bred to these colors is a silver.

When breeding for SILVER BEIGE (which is a VERY difficult color to reproduce unless breeding like color to like color) you will want to breed to the following colors: SILVER BEIGE, SILVER, CAFE AU LAIT, and BLUE. I would stay away from using whites, as I have said above, or you will have to worry about pigment on resulting white offspring.

[Christina]

Oh for goodness sake As a poodle breeder I understand the post perfectly & there is no need to lecture for asking a valid question.

Yes the black "points" are most desirable on a cream. Breeding to a black dog is fine but you may get all black puppies. Check your pedigrees thoroughly & run them past a breeder with a good poodle database & knowledge, if you can find one.

Also remember that genes do not always act as predicted or as we expect. Brown points are not a disaster, just that black is preferable. Good luck

[Simply Grand]

Oh for goodness sake As a poodle breeder I understand the post perfectly & there is no need to lecture for asking a valid question.

Yes the black "points" are most desirable on a cream. Breeding to a black dog is fine but you may get all black puppies. Check your pedigrees thoroughly & run them past a breeder with a good poodle database & knowledge, if you can find one.

Also remember that genes do not always act as predicted or as we expect. Brown points are not a disaster, just that black is preferable. Good luck

[SwaY]

A lot like Great Danes, BC's, Kelpies etc The wrong colour can mean a dog is unregisterable.

Not exactly true, the dogs can be registered however must be in limited registration.

[Shaar]

I have a cream poodle here... he is a VERY light cream, you would almost swear he was white until you see him standing next to an actual ice-white dog. He has black pigment but gets snow nose something shocking during winter.

I admit I did read this question as 'points' being darker ears, face etc do I can understand why people may have bitten as it's not allowable in the breed... But now it's been cleared up I completely understand wanting to breed for black pigment in a poodle!

Back when my mum was breeding poodles color definitely came into consideration. She only bred blacks but even within them you get different shades... Obviously you want to get the darkest black possible rather than a washed out looking color. Of course first and foremost is health, followed by conformation, but color is certainly there as well.

[redial]

A lot like Great Danes, BC's, Kelpies etc The wrong colour can mean a dog is unregisterable.

Not exactly true, the dogs can be registered however must be in limited registration.

i guess that's what i meant, non-showable

[Darkrai]

Sounds like you have a Cream, which should have black eyerims and lips, If it has liver then its a mismark and should have been limited registered.

Firstly is your bitch registered on Main and are you registered breeder? Not to sound Clicky but if not then best is to desex her, There currently is a lot of people who are breeding poodles just for the sake of breeding their dog cause they have one. None have taken the time to study the breed, its heraditary disease'swhich I think Mini' have the most), this in turn point the the Guns of the Animal activits, certain government bodies giving them more reason to aim and fire at thoe who breed responisbly.

As a groomer and Breeder/Owner of poodles I have seen many poodle thats have been bred without much thought and the issues that are consequences.

From your first post you didn't know or understand the pigmentation and colouring correctly, which should surfice not much understanding of colouring and terms. In any aspects study whats in the line and the most safest option for a stud would be a good Black, not the one down the road.

But remember please if you do breed your bitch are you bettering the breed, or increasing you purse