Puppies, A Social Experience Apparently

[Greytmate]

I am curious...

How do you expose your puppy to unexpected situations? How do you build the necessary level of tolerance/confidence to enable them to cope with that?

The dog is now over the critical socialisation phase. What is done is done. The dog has learned from every experience, including those where the OP has become upset with people.

Genetics is the major factor in a dog's tolerance and confidence levels. Pups are not blank slates.

It doesn't sound like anything really traumatic has happened during the critical phase to ruin the dog's confidence. This topic is more about the OP's anger at people. The best advice at this stage is to concentrate on the dog, not the other people, and to get the dog reliable and focussing on the handler. Train in private or use the distraction as part of the exercise.

[Kajtek]

Thanks for that Greymate

Edited December 11, 2011 by HonBun

[Kitt]

I find body language helps- as people start to coo and move towards a pup, keeping the puppy moving and saying thank you as you continue to move often helps when the beeline is made and it is unwanted.

I think that's a great point, Cosmolo. A few times recently, I have seen a lady walking a German Shepherd (an adult dog). The dog is so incredibly well behaved, and the lady puts it in a sit when I go past with my dogs, and the shepherd's attention is fully on her. Once when I was walking without my dogs, I passed the lady and her shepherd. I quietly said "Such a beautiful dog". The lady smiled but kept doing what she was doing with the dog, making it clear that she didn't want to stop and chat. Fine - I kept walking. However, if she had chatted back to me, and had engaged more with me, then I might have asked if it was ok for me to pat the dog.

But I suppose the problem that the OP is experiencing is that some people ignore her body language, and even her verbal language!

[Reewel]

Apart from any of the issues of whether you should let people pat him or not, I am concerned that people would think its okay to run up to an unknown dog and pat him, puppy or not. I was badly attacked by a GS as a 5 year old doing just that! Luckily it didnt affect my love for dogs, and all animals but I have raised my kids to ALWAYS ask. If other peoples children approach my dogs, even though they are much smaller than a GSD I tell them not to approach my dog, or any dog without checking with the owner. I tell them to stand back and ask me first. Maybe I am wrong but apart from the fact, I would hate to see a child, or anyone bitten, I would also hate to have the trouble caused if my dog did snap at a child.

[lovemesideways]

I am curious...

How do you expose your puppy to unexpected situations? How do you build the necessary level of tolerance/confidence to enable them to cope with that?

Really this is a topic in itself,(which some of the trainers here could probably answer much better than me!). http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/43479-socialisation-neutralisation/page__p__652269__hl__neutralisation__fromsearch__1#entry652269 have a read of that thread. it explains a lot of this way better than I ever could!

[Kajtek]

Thank you LMS.

Edited to clarify:

Your experience made me think...I have never consciously trained for the unexpected, yet our 3 accept kids rushing at them, strangers patting them, etc. Maybe socialization and general training do the trick? I will do a bit of research.

Edited December 11, 2011 by HonBun

[Atanquin]

I hear alot of people saying its fine and that the pup needs it to get socialized but it can have a negative affect if you let people just run up to pat the pup or other dogs come over to say hi to your pup. I have to tell people not to let their dog just run up to zorro and jump on him as he is not sure about new dogs and this started when he we started taking him out he got bowled over by bigger dogs and barked at by little dogs so now he is so cautious about new dogs. Once he has said hallo he is fine but untill then he is not sure and I could have been prevented if people had not let there dogs jump on him and there where a few nastie little dogs that snapped at him we did meet some grey dog owners that would hold their dog so zorro could sniff and they let their dog dog sniff him but they did it slowly and carefully which was great. There was one incident that I think started it when he was 13 weeks he had his last vaccs at 12 so we thought we would take him for his first beach walk and we popped him on the sand to have a sniff and he loved it he was digging in the sand and just being cute when a bichon ran over and totally sent him flying then it was barking trying to get him to play but he was only pup and didn't know what was happening I yelled at the owners to get their dog while OH picked him up and they just said " oh our dog wants to play and that ts important to socialize dogs" I got a bit mad and said " yer socializing is great but not when it's a 13 week old pup on his first outting and he gets terroised by a dog that is bigger than him, so thank you for possibly scaring my dog for life and walked off" I could have gone and told the life guards that there was a dog of lead but it just wasn't worth it. So there is nothing wrong asking people not to pat your pup and just tell them they should ask first as it is rude not to ask and its fine not to let your pup interact with every dog as some dogs might be to much for a young pup and like with what happened with me it could do more harm than good specially with a GSD. BTW GSD pups are cute it got me thinking of My kovu I still miss him

[Blackdogs]

I think you're looking at things the wong way. I don't think people have a sense of entitlement with or ownership of your dog. I think people are engaging in a socially acceptable behaviour and you are, in return, offering a socially unacceptable response.

I think when people gush over others' babies or puppies they are engaging in a behaviour which, they assume will endear them to the receiving party (owner/parent and dog/child). It's partially self-serving but also partially an attempt at social friendly social interaction. It's kind of like smiling and saying hello to someone and having them frown and turn away. People take it personally, whatever your justification may be.

You can't change the view of the general public when it comes to social interaction, so perhaps as part of your training program you need to attempt to change your responses. Not just in order to reduce the anxiety of those attempting to interact with you and your dog but also to temper your own emotions so as to benefit your dog in these situations.

Perhaps smiling and explaining to these people that your puppy is undergoing a specific training program then offering them a chance to interact with you and your puppy in a few moments may work? Maybe in engaging them in conversation about what you are doing and what you would like them to do might offer them the icebreaker they're looking for? Whatever the solution, I think you need to find a solution to your dilemma as soon as possible, lest your negativity around strangers impact on your pup.

A dog need not be in its critical period of development for behahaviour to have an impact.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Blackdogs

[Clyde]

Excellent post Blackdogs.

[❤LovesPoodles❤]

I myself do not mind when people ask to pat my dog that is fine me personally would feel rude saying no and she enjoys playing with kids etc. I have a 7 month old toy poodle and what I do not like is walking past people and they stop and just pick my dog up off the ground??!!? Where does this come from? And it isn't even kids it is older women they do not say a word just go how adorable pick her up and kiss and cuddle what not. It has not happened only once it has happened on many occassions I don't say anything but I wish I could! I would have a problem if they didn't ask but if they ask I don't see the problem I made the decision to say yes I am still in control of my dog and she knows when I command her to do something she does. I don't see why I should say no to people but that is just my opinion.

[Blackdogs]

Excellent post Blackdogs.

Thank-you.

[lovemesideways]

I think you're looking at things the wong way. I don't think people have a sense of entitlement with or ownership of your dog. I think people are engaging in a socially acceptable behaviour and you are, in return, offering a socially unacceptable response.

I think when people gush over others' babies or puppies they are engaging in a behaviour which, they assume will endear them to the receiving party (owner/parent and dog/child). It's partially self-serving but also partially an attempt at social friendly social interaction. It's kind of like smiling and saying hello to someone and having them frown and turn away. People take it personally, whatever your justification may be.

You can't change the view of the general public when it comes to social interaction, so perhaps as part of your training program you need to attempt to change your responses. Not just in order to reduce the anxiety of those attempting to interact with you and your dog but also to temper your own emotions so as to benefit your dog in these situations.

Perhaps smiling and explaining to these people that your puppy is undergoing a specific training program then offering them a chance to interact with you and your puppy in a few moments may work? Maybe in engaging them in conversation about what you are doing and what you would like them to do might offer them the icebreaker thet're looking for? Whatever the solution, I think you need to find a solution to your dilemma as soon as possible, lest your negativity around strangers impact on your pup.

A dog need not be in its critical period of development for behahaviour to have an impact.

I think I have not made myself clear enough in the opening post which has led to some confusion about my situation, so I will reiterate.

How is this a normal social interaction,

Example. "I've had a women tell me loudly how incredibly rude I was, when I had to physically stop her young daughter running at Roscoe while he was tied up at the oval. The daughter whom she had sent running over in the first place with "Oh look darling a baby, go pat him"!".

A socially acceptable behaviour is to say "hello can I pat you puppy", "can my child pat your dog please?" or "Oh your puppy is adorable, can I say hello?". I have no issue with this (like I have already mentioned), and 99% of the time I say sure go ahead and it’s a great experience all around. I enjoy the gushing too, who wouldn't? I'm a very proud owner of a beautiful GSD! Or the other situation where someone asks politely "Hes lovely, Can I pat him" but I am working on something and say "not right now sorry" with a smile. Sure I do get some weird looks, but I don’t really care and the general response is “Ok that’s fine” and we all keep moving.

Yet how is this in any way acceptable social behaviour on her part? She sends her young child running at my tied up puppy without asking me (I was standing in front of him). Not only is it very dangerous, when you don't know the dog or puppy, to tell your young child to run at it. Especially considering the ever increasing level of reports about dog bites. Its also very rude to approach someone elses dog without asking first. Let alone say "go get him darling"! and send your kid running towards a strange dog/puppy.

How is it a normal social response to literally hurl abuse at someone for saying "no thankyou" when the try to grab your puppy without asking? Or to directly ignore someones request to not feed or touch your dog whilst playing tug.

example "I even had a vet nurse say "Oh don't worry it will be fine" when I expressly told her not to feed Roscoe a liver treat, and try to give it to him anyway."

Let me put it this way, If I was wearing a beautiful scarf made of soft looking fabric, and a woman walked up to me on the street. She says "Oh that scarf is lovely, can I feel it?" I say, "Oh thank you so much, but I would prefer it if you didn’t touch it ”

What would be the correct social response.

The woman smiles back and says "oh ok" and you part ways.

Or the woman laughs and says "Oh dont worry its fine" and starts touching you and your new scarf.

My point is that, when did it become acceptable to just touch someones dog without asking. Or directly ignore them when they say no. Or to worse, respond with hostility? It seems to me like the general public have the belief that a puppy is something of a social experience. A puppy is there for them, not for the owner. And it is somehow socially acceptable to call someone a “stupid bitch” simply because they stop your kid from grabbing your dog.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Unfortunately many many people are rude and arrogant lately - see it in retail day in day out

[OSoSwift]

I generally respond with - Not at the moment they are working. I have also sent people away from my crate with my dogs in it. Annoys the crap out of me.

I have to say with the Whippets I cannot remember anyone - adults- not asking, apart from kids who I stop and remind them they should ask before trying to pat a dog they do not know.

I would maybe try the line sorry not right now he is working. Or maybe you can have a pat in x amount of minutes when he has finished working.

I do somehting a little similar. When we are at training my dogs do not play with any other dogs. Before, during or after. People thought I was strange but my dogs are there to work and be neutralised to the other dogs working around them. They never leave me to go say hello or play with other dogs but many of the dogs who are allowed to play do and often, even when they are supposed to be working.

I can fully understand why you wish to do it on your terms and sometimes people have a sense of entitlement that they shouldn't. I would get him a harness as has been mentioned before with a tag on it to say he is working etc. And tell a white lie if you need to, he is a military dog in training or whatever works.

Edited December 11, 2011 by OSoSwift

[mr.mister]

I think you're looking at things the wong way. I don't think people have a sense of entitlement with or ownership of your dog. I think people are engaging in a socially acceptable behaviour and you are, in return, offering a socially unacceptable response.

I think when people gush over others' babies or puppies they are engaging in a behaviour which, they assume will endear them to the receiving party (owner/parent and dog/child). It's partially self-serving but also partially an attempt at social friendly social interaction. It's kind of like smiling and saying hello to someone and having them frown and turn away. People take it personally, whatever your justification may be.

You can't change the view of the general public when it comes to social interaction, so perhaps as part of your training program you need to attempt to change your responses. Not just in order to reduce the anxiety of those attempting to interact with you and your dog but also to temper your own emotions so as to benefit your dog in these situations.

Perhaps smiling and explaining to these people that your puppy is undergoing a specific training program then offering them a chance to interact with you and your puppy in a few moments may work? Maybe in engaging them in conversation about what you are doing and what you would like them to do might offer them the icebreaker they're looking for? Whatever the solution, I think you need to find a solution to your dilemma as soon as possible, lest your negativity around strangers impact on your pup.

A dog need not be in its critical period of development for behahaviour to have an impact.

Interesting; I can understand your point of view and where you're coming from. The way I look at the OP's situation is like this: If I had a child, I would be happy for them to interact with others in a controlled environment, but would not be comfortable with some random stranger barging up and touching them without the child's or my permission. Consequently, if I were pregnant and had an obvious 'baby bump', no matter how lovely people think pregnancies and babies are, I would feel very uncomfortable with some stranger coming up and touching my belly. I also would consider it within my right to say no if a stranger asked to do this, and would be shocked if someone considered that rude.

This isn't a story about socialisation, really. It's about people's apparent lack of manners when approaching someone's dog. If I declined someone's query to pat my dog I would be quite irritated if they snapped back at me that I was being 'rude'. My dog, my rules, and I shouldn't have to tolerate any stranger barging in and putting their hands all over my animal. Anyone who is an owner of anything, be it an animal, a nice car or otherwise, has the right to say no.

[mr.mister]

It seems to me like the general public have the belief that a puppy is something of a social experience. A puppy is there for them, not for the owner. And it is somehow socially acceptable to call someone a “stupid bitch” simply because they stop your kid from grabbing your dog.

[Dxenion]

LMSW I understand your frustration at people coming up and patting your pup without asking first. I have a dog I work in public and am training a 13 month old pup for public work. Both wear vests with a big sign that says "please do not pet, I'm working" and you'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) at the number of people who attempt a pat even while reading the sign. For those who have suggested a vest or harness with a badge, in my experience they attract attention, not ward people off.

I've come to accept that when the general public see a well mannered dog in a public place, it seems to flip the human good manners switch off and the patting switch on. We call them drive-by petters.

Having accepted that although I can try and educate every DBP, I can't control their initial desire so instead I use it as a training exercise as I need these dogs to be focused on me no matter what the distraction. This way the dog gets exposure to all manner of people, kids and the things kids haul around and I get to conduct focus training. I know DBPing is going to occur so I just proof for it. If life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

[Roova]

It definitely seems we're heading to a world where some people are only interested in themselves and what they want,

and social etiquette isn't high on a list of what to train their kids.

You could always tell the persistent your puppy has a skin disease you're treating and it would be best/safest if they didn't pat him at the moment. Bit OTT but it might help :D

[minimiss]

It definitely seems we're heading to a world where some people are only interested in themselves and what they want,

and social etiquette isn't high on a list of what to train their kids.

You could always tell the persistent your puppy has a skin disease you're treating and it would be best/safest if they didn't pat him at the moment. Bit OTT but it might help :D

Haha that would work great!

[Odin-Genie]

This is something we did not realise would be so damaging to Oscar- we allowed people to pat him (with and often without our consent) and in general excite him as a puppy, boy have we paid the price, an excited puppy is something people love, a 40kg excited dog is not. A lot of people do not feel the need to even ask permission, whilst others do ask and ignore the response anyway.

I totally agree that it is rude to just walk up to your dog/puppy and try to pat it without asking first. It is particularly annoying when young kids do that since they usually have no clue how to interact with a dog.

But I don't think socialising damages dogs. It has helped my dogs a lot, and calmed them down significantly. I let pretty much everyone pat my dogs when they were puppies, and they were super cute fluff balls so they did draw a lot of attention. What I did ensure was that I would intervene if my dogs looked uncomfortable.

How you socialise your puppy depends on what you want to achieve. I socialised my puppies all the time. Took them everywhere with me. They were initially quite crazy and super excited. But as I continued to socialise them, took them to restaurents, shops, they calmed down and now they are so well behaved in public that I get complements on their behavious wherever I take them.

But saying that, I never intended them to focus on me. My only intention was to have nice, friendly dogs who would behave well in public and around strange dogs and people so that I could take them everywhere with me.