Puppies, A Social Experience Apparently

[huski]

I don't see anywhere that LMSW has said she doesn't allow people to pat her dog, she just doesn't let everyone who comes up pat him. I don't see how that is going to turn her dog into an unsocialised mess that can't cope with anything.

I've recently met LMSW's pup and he's a great puppy and she is doing a great job with him. What she is doing is clearly working for her and her pup.

Where did I write that. I'm having a discussion.

Your first post is quite clearly telling LMSW she is doing the wrong thing with her puppy. Having met LMSW, her puppy and understanding the training program she is implementing with him I'm 100% confident she is doing the right thing. Her puppy greets people all the time and is very well socialised, but that doesn't mean she has to let every person that approaches have a pat. I personally don't want my dogs learning that every person we pass is someone that will want to pat them. Each to their own, we all have different ways of doing things.

[Nekhbet]

Your first post is quite clearly telling LMSW she is doing the wrong thing with her puppy. Having met LMSW, her puppy and understanding the training program she is implementing with him I'm 100% confident she is doing the right thing. Her puppy greets people all the time and is very well socialised, but that doesn't mean she has to let every person that approaches have a pat. I personally don't want my dogs learning that every person we pass is someone that will want to pat them. Each to their own, we all have different ways of doing things.

My first post clearly is not, all I said is not to bottleneck the dogs experience. But read what you will.

Just because more people pat the dog doesnt mean the dog will start reaching out for attention ... it all depends how you handle the dog and the situation. You can have a million people pat your dog and have it still prefer you, or meet a few and be a nutter. But I suppose you'll get to see this more when you get some more practical experience in the training and socialisation aspects in the long term I havn't had a problem even with our school pups and they learn to naturally gravitate to their owners, we test it out too with people walking up offering treats and making kissy noises etc.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Nekhbet

[lovemesideways]

no offence, but just reading your posts you sound like a grumpy rude person that is snappy - could the tone your telling people not to pat your dog with be more why they r getting offended and not that your saying no?

"No offence" really? Are you for real? Lol.. well "no offence" but could you try a little harder to make your writing legible? It is very confusing to make out with such poor grammar and spelling. Im assuming English isn't your first language here. (Not that its really worth reading or replying to but hey, I'll bite.)

For your information, I'm a young female who is very short and incredibly polite. I'm all smiles and happiness, even when I don't feel it. So no, it is not my tone. I'm hardly grumpy, very rarely rude and always try to do the right thing.

i understand you are having to tell every single stranger 'no' but tough thats life

I never said this, in fact I said repeatedly that I am FINE with roscoe being patted, happy for it to happen in almost every case. What I am not happy with is when a. People approach/rush my puppy without permission, b. even after asking and there are situations where I say no (Ie. Middle of swinging him around on a tug toy), they approach him anyway. Or c. When I have said no, I have abuse hurled at me.

if they already know that u dont like you dog being petted then they are no longer a stranger! you sound like you are just sick of repeting yoiur self have you stopped to think that your not repeting yourself to the 1 person, these people are not TRYING to annoy you

..What are you talking about? Im talking about strangers, people I have met once and most likely will never meet again. Its not a case of them knowing I'm that person who doesn't want their puppy approached, its common courtesy of you don't touch someone else dog or puppy without permission. (again, NEVER said I didn't want him petted, far out),

most people jump at the opportunity for their young pup to be socilised with so many different people that it wont otherwise have the opportunity to meet!

And most people aren't following a fantastic training program from a well respected trainer, aimed at raising a dog for competition dog sports. Most people don't have much if any control over their dogs, and most people are the reason there are SO many dogs with issues. Most people also don't have a very high drive working line breed.

I guess I should just take him to a dog park and let him loose right, thats what "most people do"

and you getting on edge freaking out is not going to help ur dog, hes going to pick up on your tense body language and react differently to that then if you were relaxed.

Again, not getting on edge and not "freaking out". Simply having a whinge on a forum. Maybe you should calm down a bit

the world is not going to change because your having a cry, instead maybe you should realise that the way your trying to do it is not working and try to change to cater to that,

Actually it is working, and its working fantastically well in fact. I had him sitting with complete focus on me only an hour ago while a group of school girls cooed and patted him (after asking very nicely if they could pat the "wolf puppy")

if you want your dog to pay attention to you only then talk to him, idk what is his key for training but if its treats then treat him when you see pplz coming, maybe make him sit and relax and not jump.

Thankyou but I do not need your training advice. I am doing a lot more than "talking to him when he sees pplz".

i havnt had a puppy in 3 years but from memory its not THAT hard to get a dog to be focused on you and how focused do you think hes going to be when he has someone come up to him for a pat when hes older or hes is in a packed area, hes not gonna be paying attention to you when there are new things his not used to, if its a natural occurance then he wont care about it later coz its the old 'been there done that' kinda thing.

It is incredibly hard to get a dog with little to no value for you to focus on you. Especially in a heavily stimulating enviroment. Which is why I am working so hard and getting him used to everything and anything.

AGAIN, when did I say he has never had someone pat him, or never been in a packed area? Seriously, actually READ what someone types before going off with a pile of judgemental nonsense next time. It makes you look very foolish.

your being padantic and need to get over it, its going to happen people cant help being happy for you.

you cant stop leaves falling off trees, you cant stop the rain from coming, or babies growing and you definatly cant control a stranger!

Thankyou but no, I won't get over it I'll have roscoe for hopefully the next 10+ years of my life, I'm not going to spend a lot of that time trying to fixing behaviour simply because I couldnt "control a stranger" who say, let their aggressive dog charge and try to attack my puppy.

im completely with Nehkbet here, I have a 100% neutral dog (to both humans and other dogs) even under high stress/distraction situations... I didnt stop people meeting and patting my dog as a pup, in fact I encouraged it, I just ensured I was more interesting than they were :D she is completely bomb proof even when nutty people run straight over and give her a hug, coz she knows nothing bad will happen, I exposed her to it from a young age!!!!!

In saying that its LMSW's dog and she can do what she pleases with him, just be aware if he has never had someone run over and give him a hig (you cant control every situation) and its never happened to him before, you could end up with a problem... hope all goes well with his training and you end up with the dog you want!!

I doubt I'll have any problems :D ( though Im a idiot and sure to stuff something up! Lol), seeing as I'm following a very specific training program that's designed by a awesome trainer. But thanks ! Even if I do have issues, I have that same trainer to get advice from!

Considering Roscoe is only 18 weeks and only a few days ago I had him sitting, fully focused on me, with about 20 cages full of shrieking fluttering birds less than a meter behind him, I think I'm doing ok. ;) Though he just started staring at himself in the tv reflection and cocking his head.. so maybe not. Lol.

Edited December 10, 2011 by lovemesideways

[Nekhbet]

wow. just ... wow. Does the attitude come with the program too or is that a bonus? Why start a thread then if all you wanted was to complain about the people brazenly invading your space while you're in public?

[aussielover]

I think you should be a little more understanding of the general public. They don't really understand what neutralisation is, and when they see a cute puppy like Roscoe, they just want to cuddle him, and may be understandably disappointed if not allowed to (even if it is for a good reason).

If it really upsets you this much, I think you should just tell them that he is a service dog in training. I found most people very understanding when I told them my lab puppy was a guide dog in training. That is not to say I didn't let them interact with her, but I'd make sure she was well behaved and focussed on me before they did.

Most people understand that service dogs need to be treated differently, so perhaps this would be an easier/better explanation for you to use?

[lovemesideways]

the thing is - you are always with your young dog. It should never be out of reach of you or the lead out of your hand in a strange environment hence it should not be a big deal if a someone walks over and has a pat or gushes over them... you are always right there to help your dog learn what to do. If your dog starts getting excited you then redirect the dog back to you, if you cannot get that happening you need a professional to show you how. Not letting your pup at such a great age be exposed to random things and types of people you will invariably run into throughout the dogs life to me, is doing things backwards. Like I said every time this happens its an opportunity to teach the pup you're better and that those weird noises people make are nothing to go spastic over.

This is something we did not realise would be so damaging to Oscar- we allowed people to pat him (with and often without our consent) and in general excite him as a puppy, boy have we paid the price, an excited puppy is something people love, a 40kg excited dog is not. A lot of people do not feel the need to even ask permission, whilst others do ask and ignore the response anyway.

a bad tradesman blames their tools. It's not the people that have been damaging it's the owners permissiveness of the behaviour that has allowed it to go on. Now it's annoying - because there wasn't enough forethought into trying to shape the dog to behave properly when in that situation. Puppies need to be exposed to things to learn action and consequence, as well as be put in a position where they can learn so practically. Life is random - people will touch your dog, brush against it, bump it, hell i've had people kick one of mine whilst walking through a market and they can deal with it because it's been the overall idea taught to them - no matter WHAT happens look to your handler because they're awesome and they will deal with it. I think the idea of not allowing certain people to touch your dogs is something that needs to be thrown out ESPECIALLY if you plan to have this dog as more then one that lives in a secure run and doesnt go out socially. I shoved my dogs into peoples arms, let them be gushed over, poked, prodded, hell even let kids take the leash and cuddle them. Doesnt make them any less serious when it comes to work and training at all in fact I have seen how much it actually helps... and my dogs will never have a WTF I DONT GET IT look on their face when something random or weird happens.

I don't agree. Just because I don't allow every single person to pat my dog whenever they want to does not mean he isn't being exposed to a incredibly wide variety of situations. Sure I don't just allow anyone to run up and pat him, but that doesn't then mean he will never have someone pat him. Just because I don't let some little girl rush and jump on him when he is tied up and I am not holding him, doesn't mean I will never let children approach him. Its not black and white. I control every situation involving him(as much as I can) so that it turns out the best for him.

This in itself is frustrating, where is the idea that he has to be patted and shoved around by every single person to become socialised/neutralised to them? I see it as the same as his training around other dogs, he doesn't need to play with/interact with every single dog to learn about them. So why does it suddenly become fact that because I don't take him into the dog park because some guy demands it, or I don't allow a group of girls to play tug with him, that it equals him not being socialised.

Edited December 10, 2011 by lovemesideways

[Jumabaar]

You just need a dog like Franky

"people what people? I don't see any people. I see mum but the rest of the field is empty" when we are at a show or obedience lol and has been from day dot.

Either that or get a bomb proof fluffy like Demi that you can sit in front of your puppy while your training. That generally distracts them and since Demi is a Delta dog they can go for their life- its all training for her job lol.

I have to say I have actually had people be rude about franky completely ignoring them! Good luck with the general public- Abby is rude because she bounces on them and Franky is rude because she ignores them.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Jumabaar

[lovemesideways]

Just to reiterate what I said in the beginning. I understand puppies are adorable (especially mine ;D!) and everyone wants to say hello, and most people are great about it, asking first and I pretty much always say yes. Or I'll even say "Hold on till I finish this game then you can come say hi!".

My issue is with the ideal that as a stranger, you have some sort of right to pat another persons puppy or dog, just because its cute. If I say no, then people should respect that (feel free to think I'm weird, I probably am!), but the response of hurling abuse at me because I have said no? Or even (and yes this happened) telling me its totally fine, and trying to grab his leash While we were in the middle of a game of tug, so they could pull him over to say Hi. That is really just incredibly rude behaviour.

I'm pretty surprised by the general ideal that I should "get over it". When very similar threads about people being approached by others with dogs have always had the response that yes, you should ASK first. And if the person says no, you should respect that and move on. Why is it different just because someone doesn't have a dog?

This wasn't about how I should raise my puppy, because I am not asking for peoples opinion on that and if you really want to waste your time telling me how wrong I am then well, its your time to waste I guess?

This was the point,

Quote: Now don't get me wrong, I am quite happy to let Roscoe interact with strangers, in a controlled way that I choose. But the weird hostility that results from being politely told "no sorry, you can't pat him" is just so odd. Am I the only one who has come across this? Seriously, he is my dog, if I don't want you to touch him then DON'T! When did it suddenly become ok to totally ignore someones direct instruction because "its fine and you're wrong". Argh! Its very frustrating.

Like NAO said, I do not know where the general public gets the sense of entitlement to someone else's puppy!

Edited December 10, 2011 by lovemesideways

[Rebanne]

I'm pretty surprised by the general ideal that I should "get over it". When very similar threads about people being approached by others with dogs have always had the response that yes, you should ASK first. And if the person says no, you should respect that and move on. Why is it different just because someone doesn't have a dog?

me too, your dog, your rules.

[SwaY]

I'm pretty surprised by the general ideal that I should "get over it". When very similar threads about people being approached by others with dogs have always had the response that yes, you should ASK first. And if the person says no, you should respect that and move on. Why is it different just because someone doesn't have a dog?

me too, your dog, your rules.

I agree, your dog your rules.

Some people can be rude, over the top and annoying when they want to pat a puppy - Many people need to understand that the puppy is yours and not theirs, and you did not bring it out for them to pat or play with.

[~*Shell*~]

I've met LMSW and Roscoe many many times and she's not rude or snappy. No idea why anyone would think that. I've cuddled and held Roscoe at appropriate times (aka, when not in the middle of a game with LMSW) and he's just the sort of puppy I'd want. Happy to be with people, happy to be with other dogs but ultimately focused on LMSW. I think she's doing a great job with him. He'll be an amazing pet and perfomance dog when he's older.

By controlling the circumstances of Roscoe's interation with people and dogs, she can make sure they're pleasant experiences for him and ones geared towards making him a balanced adult. While they're predictable for LMSW, they're not for Roscoe so she's setting him up to be successful in a situation where he doesn't know the outcome. Personally I think it's very smart. If he was a 30kg adult, would you be saying the same thing? I hate when people come over and just lay their hands on Zero - he has had a lot of not nice experiences with people who have "just come over to pat him" (like the guy who roughly grabbed his face and stared him in the eyes). Why should it be different for a puppy?

[Rain]

I'm pretty surprised by the general ideal that I should "get over it". When very similar threads about people being approached by others with dogs have always had the response that yes, you should ASK first. And if the person says no, you should respect that and move on. Why is it different just because someone doesn't have a dog?

me too, your dog, your rules.

I agree, your dog your rules.

Some people can be rude, over the top and annoying when they want to pat a puppy - Many people need to understand that the puppy is yours and not theirs, and you did not bring it out for them to pat or play with.

I also agree

[Greytmate]

Telling somebody not to pat your dog is pretty abrupt. You may want to add that the dog is in training, so people might understand and may accept why they cannot pat your pup.

Aside from that, the people I know that use that method of training tend to keep their dogs away from the public and do most of their training alone. The critical socialisation phase has passed, so it isn't as important for the dog to be exposed to new experiences all the time. Take better control of the situation as Nekhbet said and keep the dog onlead. If you have your dog tied up by itself, you are not in as much control.

Your dog will learn how to behave from your reaction to people approaching or touching him. Next time you are out in public, be ready to train the dog what you want it to do when people approach in an inappropriate manner. Your attention needs to be on the dog at that precise moment, not on the thing that might distract the dog. Because you won't get far training the rest of the world to leave you alone. A cute pup or a well-trained adult dog in a public area generally does draw admiration from people.

[minimiss]

I'm pretty surprised by the general ideal that I should "get over it". When very similar threads about people being approached by others with dogs have always had the response that yes, you should ASK first. And if the person says no, you should respect that and move on. Why is it different just because someone doesn't have a dog?

me too, your dog, your rules.

I agree, your dog your rules.

Some people can be rude, over the top and annoying when they want to pat a puppy - Many people need to understand that the puppy is yours and not theirs, and you did not bring it out for them to pat or play with.

I also agree

I think it's extremely spoilt and bratty to hurl abuse at someone because they wont let you 'play with their toy' so to speak. Do you go up to someones motorbike in the street and sit on it because you like it? Or jump inside someones convertable just because you admire it and think it's wonderful? Why is this any different? Though, I have seen idiots doing these types of things. It makes me wonder where peoples manners have gone? If it's not yours to touch, and if you really want to, then ask. No harm in asking permission or even talking to the owner about the dog too.

[Alkhe]

I think the people on this forum tend to have a different view of dogs and dog ownership to the broader population. If I walked into a room of DOLers, I'd expect very different reactions toward my dog than walking into a room of non-DOLers. Obviously that's a huge generalisation, but I think it's fair to say that people who read and/or post on this forum at least understand how seriously some people take training, if they don't take it that seriously themselves.

Personally, I think if you're going to hold the whole world up to your ideals regarding down ownership, training, feeding and health care more broadly, you're going to be very alienated and probably offend a lot of people. I doubt your average dog owner has a comprehensive training plan for their puppy. I'm in no way saying that your approach is wrong or anything like that, but that you're in the minority (along with a lot of people on this forum) regarding your approach, and are bound to come up against this kind of thing. It's just par for the course.

That's not to say that you have the right to control and monitor your dog's interactions with people, but that you have to expect people to be a bit taken aback when you do so strictly, if only because it's probably not the reaction they expect. I doubt any of the people that have annoyed you meant any harm.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Alkhe

[minimiss]

I think the people on this forum tend to have a different view of dogs and dog ownership to the broader population. If I walked into a room of DOLers, I'd expect very different reactions toward my dog than walking into a room of non-DOLers. Obviously that's a huge generalisation, but I think it's fair to say that people who read and/or post on this forum at least understand how seriously some people take training, if they don't take it that seriously themselves.

Personally, I think if you're going to hold the whole world up to your ideals regarding down ownership, training, feeding and health care more broadly, you're going to be very alienated and probably offend a lot of people. I doubt your average dog owner has a comprehensive training plan for their puppy. I'm in no way saying that your approach is wrong or anything like that, but that you're in the minority (along with a lot of people on this forum) regarding your approach, and are bound to come up against this kind of thing. It's just par for the course.

That's not to say that you have the right to control and monitor your dog's interactions with people, but that you have to expect people to be a bit taken aback when you do so strictly, if only because it's probably not the reaction they expect. I doubt any of the people that have annoyed you meant any harm.

I didn't actually see it written anywhere that the OP was 'strict' in the way she told strangers that it was not ok to touch her dog. Although I don't think the delivery would have particularly mattered, some people have such a sense of entitlement that regardless of how you said something to them, they'd sulk and abuse.

I agree though, us DOLers have more knowledge and a sense of training plans and how we'd like to shape our puppy whereas the average person may not. That still doesn't mean their manners need to go out the window just because they see a puppy Unfortunately we cannot train strangers to act more civilised, so it's a matter of continuing what you're doing and having a 'water off a ducks back' approach. Many have said on here that they've met the OP and her pup, and the training and pup are both wonderful - I don't think she should change this just to suit the average stranger.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't though!

[GeckoTree]

I don't even know why you would care if some stranger thinks you are rude for not allowing them to goo-gaa over your pup to be honest,

Who are they to you and your dog and what you want from the bond?

[aussielover]

Look I totally understand how frustrating it is when people don't listen to what you say or get upset.

When my dog was in training to be a guide dog I often asked people if they could wait to pat her while I got her focussed on me or in a sit/down/calmer state. Most people were very understanding but you do get a few odd ones.

I got told that my puppy was obviously vicious, or would grow up to be anti social, or that I knew nothing about dog training- don't you know that its important for puppies to socialise etc

I even got told it was cruel to force dogs to work for humans

Just tell them he is a police dog, they'll probably be more understanding

[tarope]

As he is your dog, you make the rules not others and if people are offended who cares. Anyway you won't have this problem when he's a little bigger, as people will cross to the other side of the street when they see him. :rofl:

[suziwong66]

We've had many similar experiences in the last four months since Wilbur came home to us. I'm happy for him to have contact with strangers, but only in situations that will benefit Wilbur's development. This means it needs to be controlled so that Wilbur has every opportunity to learn self-regulation. We've had a lot of people lunging toward him without asking first. This is exactly what i'm not happy with. I'm trying to teach Wilbur that lunging is bad manners and that he has to regulate his behaviour before he gets any reward of pats/attention because when people lunge forward Wilbur thinks he can lunge too. One lady ran up to him and thrust her face into his for puppy licks. I quickly pulled him out of her reach and told her that was a really stupid thing to do to a dog that she didn't know.

One of our local large pet stores has staff members who are some of the worst offenders! Our best experience so far has been at Adelaide Dog: a small pet store. The staff were fabulous at understanding the behaviour expectations i have of Wilbur. This cute 6 month old puppy won't be so cute when he's 35+ kg and lunging forward at a stranger! We had a fabulous experience yesterday, where Wilbur got all the pats he wanted as did the staff and Wilbur experienced the way he is supposed to greet people; calmly and on his bottom.

The world may well be unpredictable but as a large breed owner i have a responsibility to teach my dog self-regulation in as many social situations as possible so that he knows how to behave. Wilbur is getting much better at not lunging forward for pats. He is starting to regulate his own behaviour and sit and wait for cuddles/attention etc.