Koehler Training In Sydney?

[huski]

I agree Aidan - I think too much is dependent on the dog and handler to say with confidence one method would work on any dog.

I am 100% certain pure Koehler training would not have worked on my hard very scent driven hound, for example. There is no way you could have gotten her working off leash reliably strictly with praise and corrections. A correction would have to be incredibly hard for her to even notice you were giving one.

[Aidan3]

Posted Aidan2 I think the main problem comes from Koehler's problem behaviour modification methods, which were harsh by any account.

I agree they are very harsh. But then, if you follow Koehler's instructions for fixing problem behaviours 99% of dogs will never require such harsh measures as found in the second half of the book.

Personally, I cannot imagine raising a dog from a puppy how one would ever need to employ such harsh methods. But then I am not a professional trainer, and I don't have to deal with incompetent owners so foolish to allow such behaviors to arise in the first place.

Welll.... I guess once you train a larger variety of dogs you'll soon see that not everything comes down to "nurture". Hence, the issue with prescriptive training methods. We get pretty close with positive reinforcement methods so long as they are well implemented and not taken to extremes, which is why most trainers are offering that sort of training now. It is more flexible and more universal, with less fallout from handler error.

An owner doesn't need to be incompetent for unwanted behaviours to surface. At one point I looked at one of my classes (for dogs with aggression problems) and every handler had one problem dog, and one completely normal dog at home. None of them were clueless, all of them undertook basic training, all of them had sought help early from other trainers or clubs. It was the first time I was really forced to step back and think about how much of an influence "nature" will have regardless of our understanding of behaviour modification.

[Weasels]

Posted by Aidan2 What is your real life experience with Koehler method, itsadogslife? It's a fair question. As you say, not many people actually do it, but a lot of people have strong opinions on the method.

I have trained one dog in my life, a Hungarian Vizla. He died suddenly from illness a couple of months ago. I did not trial him for reason of work and other commitments and due to the fact that I am not that interested in dog competition. I have recently acquired a Kelpie pup from rescue up in the country. I have plans to start (formally) training him in the new year.

My Hungarian Vizsla was a beautiful, soft, lovely dog. The Koehler Method allowed me, a complete novice to train him without help into a well behaved reliable dog to whom I spent many hours enjoyable walking him off lead all the while knowing him would come when call, heel when asked, sit, stay, drop, fetch etc etc.

The notion that this dog, was in any way frightened, fearful or harmed by the methods I used is so foreign to my experience with him that I really do wonder why people have such an interest in denying the average dog owner (like myself) a perfectly good, simple method, specifically developed over 16 years and 11,000 dogs with a proven track record of bringing reliability.

But then again, almost every single person that I have found who objects to the method has never used it.

Sorry to hear about your boy

Have you had a kelpie before? I just ask because they are very different to train. They are actually quite 'soft' dogs and will shut down if they are confused, frustrated or don't feel they are being treated fairly. The trainer of the most expensive working kelpie sold was very adamant that you have to be kind and fair to get the best out a kelpie. Another thing to watch out for is that they will work their guts out for you and then suddenly flag - sometimes they will push beyond their limit of tiredness and dehydration for you and you have to be aware it's time to rest and give them a drink, not keep pushing.

Kelpies also have a reputation for 'hard-headedness' which some people percieve as willful disobedience. In fact they are just bred to act independently, quickly and on instinct. They may not obey you first time every time even after extensive training because they get quite fixated and are following their instincts, exactly as they are meant to when working. They literally go a bit deaf and may need a couple of commands to register that you are talking to them.

I recommend the book "Kelpie Basics" from the Noonbarra stud (http://www.noonbarra.com/Products_BOOKS.htm#BEGINNERS%20MANUAL) which is a great insight into kelpie behaviour. I'm not recommending any particular training style, and I certainly don't have perfect dogs, but I think it's important to understand where these dogs are coming from temperamentally and instinct-wise

Edit: quote from the trainer/breeder I mentioed above, who sold Wybimbie Ted for $9000 - "“The only way to get a good result with dogs is to build a connection with them - not through things like electric collars which I believe ruin dogs and trainers and should be outlawed.” Ian said Ted was such a standout thanks to his genetics, the correct handling and training."

Edited December 14, 2011 by Weasels

[PAX]

1323825375[/url]' post='5631881']

I agree the dog did improve in the second video and that is probably the better video shown regarding Koehler training so far.

This is a youtube of a very well trained dog who is training under high distraction. He is being distracted by the things he does get rewarded with. Yes occassionally his attention does get drawn for a few seconds but he remains very focussed and does not move out of position. He is positive reinforcement trained.

This persons channel also inclused youtubes of him trialling.

This is one of the top winning dogs in Australia and also an awesome, easy dog to be around....doubt he has had many, if af any corrections, just well trained by a great handler.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Weasels They are actually quite 'soft' dogs and will shut down if they are confused, frustrated or don't feel they are being treated fairly.

I think most dogs will shut down for those reasons - either that or they will get aggressive.

The trainer of the most expensive working kelpie sold was very adamant that you have to be kind and fair to get the best out a kelpie.

I would say the same applies for any dog.

Kelpies also have a reputation for 'hard-headedness' which some people percieve as willful disobedience. In fact they are just bred to act independently, quickly and on instinct.

Riley is 4 months old and yep I can already see what you are describing.

I recommend the book "Kelpie Basics" from the Noonbarra stud (http://www.noonbarra...INNERS%20MANUAL) which is a great insight into kelpie behaviour.

Thank you, I'll take a look at it.

I'm not recommending any particular training style, and I certainly don't have perfect dogs, but I think it's important to understand where these dogs are coming from temperamentally and instinct-wise

Again, thank you, I appreciate your input.

[Kavik]

Yep I find my Kelpie an interesting mix of 'hard' and 'soft'.

[Weasels]

Posted by Weasels They are actually quite 'soft' dogs and will shut down if they are confused, frustrated or don't feel they are being treated fairly.

I think most dogs will shut down for those reasons - either that or they will get aggressive.

The trainer of the most expensive working kelpie sold was very adamant that you have to be kind and fair to get the best out a kelpie.

I would say the same applies for any dog.

Yep, I just think it is a bit more extreme in kelpies since they are just busting out of their skin to please you and go a bit bonkers when they can't work out why they can't :p

Also, mine both manifest 'shutting down' differently. Weez will literally run to the corner/into shade and not move, the Foxdog will run up to me and jump up and get too wound up to listen to commands. Either behaviour means they're in no position to learn anything until they've settled.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Weasels

[itsadogslife]

BTW Weasels, I just brought the book you recommended. The dog on the cover is the spitting image of Riley.

[Weasels]

Excellent Riley must be a heartbreaker then!

[OSoSwift]

Posted by OsoSwift I have used it and trained it

Did you train it exactly as instructed from the book?

One of my others was then we changed and got a far happier more confident dog ho actually retrieved a dumbell after 4 years of trying with the Koehler method.

This sounds highly unlikely to me that you were using the method correctly. You may have been, but it does make me wonder.

I even had someone who had trained koehler for a lot longer than me and was apparently a very very good trainer fail to get my girl to retrieve. I was told she wasn't a retrieving breed and therefore I was pushing the proverbial up a hill with a very skinny stick.

This makes me even less likely to believe that you were being instructed properly. There is not a (proper) Koehler trainer on the planet that would ever say "she wasn't a retrieving breed" as an excuse for their inability to train.

Yes I did and followed the books religiously. I was told I could possibly do it but as my breed wasn't a retrieving breed it was unlikely considering her response. I also went to two different instructors who trained with that method and neither could get her to progress.

I then as a complete novice to the method with phone support and some books for help turned her into a very reliable retriever who did so confidentally. While I had been training for some time I was new to clicker training and still got her working well. If you make a mistake with a missed or off time click all you will get is a slightly slow behaviour or a dog that offers you something slightly different to what you were chasing. No major drama just stop rewarding for that and it will in time dissappear. Miss time a correction and it can take quite some time to repair the damage especially on very sensitive dogs.

[OSoSwift]

1323825375[/url]' post='5631881']

I agree the dog did improve in the second video and that is probably the better video shown regarding Koehler training so far.

This is a youtube of a very well trained dog who is training under high distraction. He is being distracted by the things he does get rewarded with. Yes occassionally his attention does get drawn for a few seconds but he remains very focussed and does not move out of position. He is positive reinforcement trained.

This persons channel also inclused youtubes of him trialling.

This is one of the top winning dogs in Australia and also an awesome, easy dog to be around....doubt he has had many, if af any corrections, just well trained by a great handler.

From memory his owner has said she has never given a correction.

[ursus]

This is a youtube of a very well trained dog who is training under high distraction. He is being distracted by the things he does get rewarded with. Yes occassionally his attention does get drawn for a few seconds but he remains very focussed and does not move out of position. He is positive reinforcement trained.

This persons channel also inclused youtubes of him trialling.

I must say, I would be very, VERY happy getting my Bull Terrier to 10% of the level on the video, whatever the method.

[Aidan3]

This is a youtube of a very well trained dog who is training under high distraction. He is being distracted by the things he does get rewarded with. Yes occassionally his attention does get drawn for a few seconds but he remains very focussed and does not move out of position. He is positive reinforcement trained.

This persons channel also inclused youtubes of him trialling.

I must say, I would be very, VERY happy getting my Bull Terrier to 10% of the level on the video, whatever the method.

Just to broaden the picture a bit, that is almost exactly what we do in my reactive and aggressive dog classes, except we don't expect the dog to walk at perfect heel and look at the handler. I used to run a class for dogs who chased bikes, same thing. We get them doing something, get them enjoying it, then gradually add distractions at a rate at which they are always succeeding. That means tossing balls in front of them, trying to tempt them with food, then riding bikes past them. Slowly at first, then speeding up. Our graduation class was off-leash on a public bike track. After all, “Reliability off lead should always be the most significant criterion when evaluating and comparing training methods.” (Bill Koehler)

[itsadogslife]

Posted by OsoSwift Yes I did and followed the books religiously. I was told I could possibly do it but as my breed wasn't a retrieving breed it was unlikely considering her response. I also went to two different instructors who trained with that method and neither could get her to progress.

I then as a complete novice to the method with phone support and some books for help turned her into a very reliable retriever who did so confidentally. While I had been training for some time I was new to clicker training and still got her working well. If you make a mistake with a missed or off time click all you will get is a slightly slow behaviour or a dog that offers you something slightly different to what you were chasing. No major drama just stop rewarding for that and it will in time dissappear. Miss time a correction and it can take quite some time to repair the damage especially on very sensitive dogs.

I am sorry that you went through this. I wonder very much about the trainers you saw, but I do not have the experience to comment further.

I am glad that you found another method to fix the problem. Different methods suit different people, finding the one that suits you and your dog best is always the best outcome.