Koehler Training In Sydney?

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Kavik The dog is not physically corrected with a leash to teach it how to make the right choice.

The dog is being corrected, the trainer is using negative punishment, and yes the video does show the dog being - gasp, horror - forcibly manipulated by a leash. As I said, a nice video.

[Aidan3]

Posted by Kavik Off leash reliability around distractions in everyday life? Sure

A nice video, but it really does surprise me that you can claim that that dog still in training is reliable. The dog will be trained and reliable when she can put away the food and get the same behavior. As I said, to me, what I am seeing is a dog being trained, not a fully trained reliable dog.

Can you find a video of a Koehler method trained dog exhibiting a reliable recall? I have no doubt such dogs exist but it's odd that it's so hard to find a video. Not that it really matters, I've seen a few in person and they aren't any more reliable than this dog or any less "fully trained". The tools for reinforcement are just different.

[OSoSwift]

I do not carry food everywhere with me and my dogs are happy and very reliable, even when calling off rabbits which I think is not to bad for a Whippet.

[itsadogslife]

Can you find a video of a Koehler method trained dog exhibiting a reliable recall?

No.

I have no doubt such dogs exist but it's odd that it's so hard to find a video.

Not really. Koehler trained doggs are in minority these days.

Not that it really matters, I've seen a few in person and they aren't any more reliable than this dog or any less "fully trained". The tools for reinforcement are just different.

I don't know what you mean by this. A Koehler trained dog whilst still in training has a very light line attached to it - for reinforcement if needed - as the weeks progress the line is progressively shortened until none exists. At that point the dog is no longer able to be corrected, hence is reliable.

[OSoSwift]

I don't know what you mean by this. A Koehler trained dog whilst still in training has a very light line attached to it - for reinforcement if needed - as the weeks progress the line is progressively shortened until none exists. At that point the dog is no longer able to be corrected, hence is reliable.

Okay, how about this.

Dog is trained with treats (be it food tug whatever) it has a very high rate or reinforcement. The rate of reinforcement becomes variable and less often as time progresses until it does not need a treat(although I still always give a reward even if only one for 20minutes work and that with one of my dogs it is being allowed to jump on me as I am seen as one of the ultimate rewards )

They no longer need their treat often, or may only need one as they are now proofed and reliable. That treat is also not necessarily food.

I am also interested why you seem to ignore posts that point out positively trained dogs that can listen and work under heavy distraction with little or no food or treats? Not what you were wanting to hear??

[itsadogslife]

Posted by OsoSwiftDog is trained with treats (be it food tug whatever) it has a very high rate or reinforcement. The rate of reinforcement becomes variable and less often as time progresses until it does not need a treat(although I still always give a reward even if only one for 20minutes work and that with one of my dogs it is being allowed to jump on me as I am seen as one of the ultimate rewards

I train my dog in the same way, except I use praise instead of treats.

They no longer need their treat often, or may only need one as they are now proofed and reliable.

I proof my dog around distractions with both praise and corrections if necessary.

I am also interested why you seem to ignore posts that point out positively trained dogs that can listen and work under heavy distraction with little or no food or treats?

I don't, if your dog is reliable that's great.

[OSoSwift]

a treat can be praise, food a toy. One dog on here is allowed to go sniff and cock his leg as a reward.

A treat is anything the dog has a high value for.

[lovemesideways]

This thread:

One side: -Gives totally reasonable and accurate explanations about training. Show videos that fully backup those training statements.-

Other side: (consisting of one person, and another who just so happens to mysteriously appear now) LALALALALA we can't heeear yooou lalalalala -Ignores everything, posts videos of badly working dogs.-

Lol.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by OsoSwift a treat can be praise, food a toy

Excellent. I have joined the ranks of treat trainer! The rate of reinforcement in Koehler, as I said before, is about 100 treats to 1 correction. I think that is a fair and logical way to train a dog.

[OSoSwift]

well then why do you need the corrections? IF your reward had a high enough value to your dog you would rarely if ever need a correction.

Edited December 13, 2011 by OSoSwift

[Jumabaar]

Posted by Jumabaar But thats not the context that this dog is in.

Precisely. The dog has been trained to perform to that standard regardless of what context it is in. The different aims of training. Again, why can't you understand this? The dog has not been trained to perform in the ring - it has been trained to perform in any and all contexts to that standard.

And for that matter why does a dog need to be in perfect heel while on a walk?

The dog has been trained to perform to that standard in every context. Aren't you the person who asked me why wouldn't you want to improve your standard?

My only standards when I go for a walk is that they stay within easy calling distance and they don't chase other dogs/birds. Since my aim is to exercise and enjoy an outing with the dogs those standards are more than adequate to fulfil my needs. Having 4 dogs trying to maintain heel position is just straight out painful (I have tried it) and confusing so having them wonder close to me suits my context.

My standard when I enter the ring is much higher I want a dog that is alert, responsive (so if I say heel I expect the dog to be there as fast as they can physically get there, just like if they were on a walk and I had to recall them off something) and engaging with me. That doesn't mean they have to be staring me in the face, but they shouldn't be looking at what is going on in the ring next to us. When I hit the Rally O ring next moth this connection is actually marked as part of the final score! My aim in competition is to try and get the perfect score.

No point going into a trial ring with the same standards as I do going for a walk because they are completely different situations with different aims. For one I only trial one dog at a time, when I go for a walk I go with a few dogs, either on lead or off

Edited December 13, 2011 by Jumabaar

[Aidan3]

Not that it really matters, I've seen a few in person and they aren't any more reliable than this dog or any less "fully trained". The tools for reinforcement are just different.

I don't know what you mean by this. A Koehler trained dog whilst still in training has a very light line attached to it - for reinforcement if needed - as the weeks progress the line is progressively shortened until none exists. At that point the dog is no longer able to be corrected, hence is reliable.

As you have noted, there are very few Koehler method trained dogs around these days so it would be hard to compare, but the ones I have seen do not have perfect recalls and still require training throughout their life. We know a lot about the laws of learning and Koehler method cannot clam any greater reliability or less reliance on reward and punishment than any other method.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Jumabaar My only standards when I go for a walk is that they stay within easy calling distance and they don't chase other dogs/birds. Since my aim is to exercise and enjoy an outing with the dogs those standards are more than adequate to fulfil my needs.

Then that is perfectly fine. We have different standards. But I see no reason why I should apply your standard as if it THE STANDARD, any more than I expect you to apply and live by my standards.

My standard when I enter the ring is much higher

The standard for the Koehler trained dog, is as I have said, the same regardless where they are.

You have to understand that when Koehler was developing his method, obedience trials were thought of very differently to the way they are now. There was much more emphasis on 'trialling' your dog to an objective standard which demonstrated the good manners and obedience of your dog. Good manners and obedience that could and would be taken everywhere you and your dog went. Of course, humans being humans, trialling soon became competitive. People started training with the specific goal of winning trials. For Koehler, training behaviors specifically for the ring was nonsensical and opposed to the original intention of obedience trials.

Of course, there is nothing to say that you can't change the standards of which dogs 'perform' in the ring. But there is also nothing in your 'standards' - which is the standards of 'performance' - that compels me to change my standards, which are the standards of everyday living.

We have have these disagreements, because you and others have confused your standards as being THE STANDARD.

[Jumabaar]

Posted by Jumabaar My only standards when I go for a walk is that they stay within easy calling distance and they don't chase other dogs/birds. Since my aim is to exercise and enjoy an outing with the dogs those standards are more than adequate to fulfil my needs.

Then that is perfectly fine. We have different standards. But I see no reason why I should apply your standard as if it THE STANDARD, any more than I expect you to apply and live by my standards.

My standard when I enter the ring is much higher

The standard for the Koehler trained dog, is as I have said, the same regardless where they are.

You have to understand that when Koehler was developing his method, obedience trials were thought of very differently to the way they are now. There was much more emphasis on 'trialling' your dog to an objective standard which demonstrated the good manners and obedience of your dog. Good manners and obedience that could and would be taken everywhere you and your dog went. Of course, humans being humans, trialling soon became competitive. People started training with the specific goal of winning trials. For Koehler, training behaviors specifically for the ring was nonsensical and opposed to the original intention of obedience trials.

Of course, there is nothing to say that you can't change the standards of which dogs 'perform' in the ring. But there is also nothing in your 'standards' - which is the standards of 'performance' - that compels me to change my standards, which are the standards of everyday living.

We have have these disagreements, because you and others have confused your standards as being THE STANDARD.

lol- once again we are on different pages, and most of my post has been ignored.

You are right way back when Koehler was developing his method times were different. So now in todays society new training methods have been created to suit todays trials! You do realise that time is also a context- so applying logic that is outdated and showing performances of dogs currently working and saying that they would have been acceptable in the past does not make them appropriate today. It is faulty logic to turn up at a trial and ignore the judge and perform all the exercises exactly as they were in the past as there have been changes. You must look at Koehler's training in todays society, not look at what the ideals where back then because they were in a different time context.

It was you that bought into this discussion competition, which set the standard of aiming for a perfect score. They are not my standards, they are THE standards set by THE ANKC and the judges ;) I just have to conform by them.

If you don't want to discuss trailing then show us some amazing Koehler trained dogs going for a walk down the street because then you can set any standard you want. Show us an obedience trial and we will sit and judge the performance according to the rules as we have them today. And by those rules the examples you have shown are not amazing.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Jumabaar

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Aidan2 but the ones I have seen do not have perfect recalls and still require training throughout their life.

My interest in this thread was pipped by the fact that only a few weeks ago, I too, was looking for a trainer in Melbourne who understood the method. I was ringing around different people until I came across this trainer who said he had been training professionally for 30 years. He informed me that he had trained using Koehler, had the books and was very familiar with the method. He then went on to say the usual things about how training had progressed and that we no longer used such correction based methods. I expressed surprise as I did not feel in training my previous dog, that it was heavily focused on corrections. As a way of illustrating my point, I explained how Koehler trained the sit (straight from the book) - to which he replied with a straight face: "oh, that's not Koehler.

Personally, I would be surprised that anyone in Australia would have seen a purely trained Koehler dog. I rather suspect that the Koehler method was revised and modified and mixed with other traditional methods from the moment it arrived in Australia. So much so that even a professional trainer with over 30 years of experience can be clueless as to the correct application of the method.

[Aidan3]

Personally, I would be surprised that anyone in Australia would have seen a purely trained Koehler dog. I rather suspect that the Koehler method was revised and modified and mixed with other traditional methods from the moment it arrived in Australia.

I agree with this, I would be surprised if Koehler ever trained two dogs the same way. I mentioned early on in this thread my early experiences of being trained almost exactly as per the video you showed, and that even then, most people were making their own changes. Whether anyone ever went off and did the light line work outside of class I have no idea, from the looks of their off-leash recalls, probably not

I do a lot of long-line work with a tip of the hat to Koehler. But we know a lot more about learning now so to do it exactly the same way would not make sense to me.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Jumabaar And by those rules the examples you have shown are not amazing.

Here is another poorly performed Koehler dog winning first place in Novice with a score of 197.

Here is the same poorly performed dog in 2011 winning in Utility with High Combined and High in Trial with a score of 198.5.

Of course it goes without saying that the judges are incompetent, the competition woefully poor, and no dog trained this way in Australia will ever do any good.

[ursus]

There are a lot of comments that relate to obedience trials. My goal, on the other hand, does not include participating in competition. I don't care how "clean" the dog heels or sits. I would be happy if my dog heels within a meter from me. Sure, I want the dog to be enjoy walks and hikes with me. A question: is maintaining the dog's focus for 10 minutes of ring action the same as getting him to pay attention for several hours of the walk?

[m-j]

Posted by Huski I am just responding to the videos you have posted demonstrating what you perceive is a great example of Koehler training.

If it's not about the dog's performance in those videos, then why are you using them to demonstrate your point?

It is about the dog's performance anywhere, regardless. Your dogs are trained to give a 'performance' in the ring, Koehler trained dogs are not. There are different standards at work here. You seem to only be able to comprehend or appreciate one particular standard.

I don't agree with this. I believe if you give the dog a cue to a behaviour that has been generalised, it should perform it to the standard I have set be it in real life or in the trial ring.

"Sit" in either method means put your butt on the ground, the difference in the methods is how that is communicated to the dog, the training process.

The standard of compliance you achieve with either method is your choice, it's got absolutely nothing to do with the method as I believe you can get consistant reliability using methods other than Koehler.

If Koehler methods are so good the people who train service dogs would still be using them as their job is about saving human lives, keeping our country free from pests, not ribbons or the satisfaction of having a well trainind dog.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Ursus A question: is maintaining the dog's focus for 10 minutes of ring action the same as getting him to pay attention for several hours of the walk?

A fully trained dog should have no more difficulty remaining attentive to his handler on a two hour walk, than it is for you to remain attentive on a two hour car drive.