Koehler Training In Sydney?

[huski]

Ok, take a look at the dog heeling offlead in that video, imagine the exact same behavior in the dog as it takes a casual stroll with it's owner. Are you saying that that performance can be improved? What do you mean by that? That the dog should be in high drive, prancing on all fours, looking at adoringly at its owner as they enjoy a causal stroll?

Why would you want a dog like that on a casual walk?

That is what the dog has been trained for - to be attentive and responsible in ordinary life. Why can you not understand that the aim of training here is different?

I am just responding to the videos you have posted demonstrating what you perceive is a great example of Koehler training.

If it's not about the dog's performance in those videos, then why are you using them to demonstrate your point? Clearly the aim of the training in those videos was to train a dog for obedience competition. You wouldn't stop in the middle of the street to lay down a pile of UD scent articles and ask the dog to find a piece of leather on command.

How do you know what those dogs behaviour is like outside of the obedience ring?

[Jumabaar]

Posted by Huski there is so much room for improvement that I am confused why you'd never aim for a higher standard or to at least have a better dog.

Ok, take a look at the dog heeling offlead in that video, imagine the exact same behavior in the dog as it takes a casual stroll with it's owner. Are you saying that that performance can be improved? What do you mean by that? That the dog should be in high drive, prancing on all fours, looking at adoringly at its owner as they enjoy a causal stroll?

Why would you want a dog like that on a casual walk?

That is what the dog has been trained for - to be attentive and responsible in ordinary life. Why can you not understand that the aim of training here is different?

But thats not the context that this dog is in.

My dog would look similar out on a walk with her walking collar on. Pop her working collar on and my dog does become drivy and animated because we are working not strolling down the path. This dog is in competition and still looks like it is going for a stroll in the park.

And for that matter why does a dog need to be in perfect heel while on a walk? When mine walk off lead they stop and sniff but all know that there is a 2meter zone that they have to stay in. They are under voice control and do regular check ins with me so I don't care that they are not on my left hand side etc. When we go for a casual walk on lead they can be anywhere so long as its not directly in front of me (they learn that when I accidentally trip on them) and not pulling.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Jumabaar

[Falcor]

Posted by Huski Where is the engagement with the handler? The dog isn't even looking at the handler,

The dog is isn't looking at the handler? lol. How do you suppose the dog remains in heel if it wasn't paying attention to the handler? Some of us are unconcerned to have a dog stare up at our faces in a trained display of adoration.

There is a clear disconnect between dog and handler in that video and it's sad that you can't see that.

Look how the dog looks around when it's left in the stand for COP, it's bored and disengaged with the handler, it's just going through the motions. Look how slowly it responds to commands, it takes a century to drop - if that's work you are happy to except with your own dog that is your prerogative, but don't try to tell me that is a great example of a good working partnership between dog and handler, or that training with methods like that produces the best results.

Huski,

what you have described has no relevence in the Koehler system, the description of the behaviour mentioned doesn't detract from the dog's reliability off leash, detachment from the handler and where the dog is looking doesn't matter to Koehler, it's about the dog not shooting across the road unpredictably and getting hit by a car, a dog breaking a commanded sit and doing the same unattended, a dog being able to be walked off leash in a casual heel through any distractions whilst the handler smells the roses and watches the birds in the sky with no attention on the dog, to walk a 5km path day dreaming and enjoying the sunshine to find at the end of the path the dog remains along side you. That is what Koehler training is about???.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Falcor

[huski]

Folks,

Koehler's training method was about achieving reliable off leash obedience as the measure. It was nothing about producing animated heeling with a spring in the step and other such behaviour mentioned. It was simply take a Keohler trained dog along a daily routine off leash against a dog trained in another method to test the reliabilty of the dog throughout various distractions and evironments.

In Keohler's days there were no leash laws to abide by as we have today, we would never think regardless of the obedience and reliablity we have achieved in sport or other disciplines to simply window shop around the city block casually with an off leash dog to test the reliability that Koehler trained, most of us wouldn't know if our training system produced reliablility in those circumstances as we can no longer legally take a dog through such an exercise as Koehler could in his days.

To rate a dog trained in Koehler methods against anything else in fairness we need to apply the rightful tests on the dog's training in the same vein that Koehler trained to determine the difference.

I think a lot of people look at it through rose tinted glasses, "In the good old days when Koehler was popular, any dog could behave reliably off leash"... sure. We also didn't have the variety of breeds around that we do now, dogs didn't live as long as they do now, dogs that didn't fit the mould would have likely been shot or PTS rather than worked with like we do now and society overall is completely different - there is no comparing "then" to "now".

[huski]

Huski,

what you have described has no relevence in the Koehler system, the description of the behaviour mentioned doesn't detract from the dog's reliability off leash, detachment from the handler and where the dog is looking doesn't matter to Koehler, it's about the dog not shooting across the road unpredictably and getting hit by a car, a dog breaking a commanded sit and doing the same unattended, a dog being able to be walked off leash in a casual heel through any distractions whilst the handler smells the roses and watches the birds in the sky with no attention on the dog, to walk a 5km path day dreaming and enjoying the sunshine to find at the end of the path the dog remains along side you. That is what Koehler training is about???.

If the dog is disconnected from the handler, bored, easily distracted etc that will and does impact on the dog's reliability off leash, I guarantee you.

[Aidan3]

In Keohler's days there were no leash laws to abide by as we have today, we would never think regardless of the obedience and reliablity we have achieved in sport or other disciplines to simply window shop around the city block casually with an off leash dog to test the reliability that Koehler trained, most of us wouldn't know if our training system produced reliablility in those circumstances as we can no longer legally take a dog through such an exercise as Koehler could in his days.

You sound familiar. I'll make an open admission, my old boy who recently passed away at 11 due to cancer only ever wore a leash crossing the main rd. Illegal, possibly stupid, but that's what we did. I took him to a seminar with dozens of dogs and people (who will happily verify) and left him in a down-stay while I walked to the next building to use the bathroom. I didn't ever proof him to anywhere near that level, he just loved doing stuff for me and with me.

We would hike every weekend for hours, including into the evening, where he would like to hunt but would always return to my call (except one time, that sucked, but I found him again, injured).

So I'm pretty confident in my training system.

I also walk my severely DA dog through off-leash areas every night without incident. These are pretty good tests of reliability I reckon. But sure, no doubt there are some Koehler trainers out there getting similar results. They just aren't so common these days.

[Aidan3]

it's about the dog not shooting across the road unpredictably and getting hit by a car, a dog breaking a commanded sit and doing the same unattended, a dog being able to be walked off leash in a casual heel through any distractions whilst the handler smells the roses and watches the birds in the sky with no attention on the dog, to walk a 5km path day dreaming and enjoying the sunshine to find at the end of the path the dog remains along side you. That is what Koehler training is about???.

How has that worked out for you, Falcor?

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Jumabaar But thats not the context that this dog is in.

Precisely. The dog has been trained to perform to that standard regardless of what context it is in. The different aims of training. Again, why can't you understand this? The dog has not been trained to perform in the ring - it has been trained to perform in any and all contexts to that standard.

And for that matter why does a dog need to be in perfect heel while on a walk?

The dog has been trained to perform to that standard in every context. Aren't you the person who asked me why wouldn't you want to improve your standard?

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Huski I am just responding to the videos you have posted demonstrating what you perceive is a great example of Koehler training.

If it's not about the dog's performance in those videos, then why are you using them to demonstrate your point?

It is about the dog's performance anywhere, regardless. Your dogs are trained to give a 'performance' in the ring, Koehler trained dogs are not. There are different standards at work here. You seem to only be able to comprehend or appreciate one particular standard.

[huski]

Posted by Huski I am just responding to the videos you have posted demonstrating what you perceive is a great example of Koehler training.

If it's not about the dog's performance in those videos, then why are you using them to demonstrate your point?

It is about the dog's performance anywhere, regardless. Your dogs are trained to give a 'performance' in the ring, Koehler trained dogs are not. There are different standards at work here. You seem to only be able to comprehend or appreciate one particular standard.

Personally I prefer to teach my dogs to go into drive when I command them to do so (like in the obedience ring) and then teach manners and calm and appropriate behaviour for other times like when we're out on a walk.

[Falcor]

Folks,

Koehler's training method was about achieving reliable off leash obedience as the measure. It was nothing about producing animated heeling with a spring in the step and other such behaviour mentioned. It was simply take a Keohler trained dog along a daily routine off leash against a dog trained in another method to test the reliabilty of the dog throughout various distractions and evironments.

In Keohler's days there were no leash laws to abide by as we have today, we would never think regardless of the obedience and reliablity we have achieved in sport or other disciplines to simply window shop around the city block casually with an off leash dog to test the reliability that Koehler trained, most of us wouldn't know if our training system produced reliablility in those circumstances as we can no longer legally take a dog through such an exercise as Koehler could in his days.

To rate a dog trained in Koehler methods against anything else in fairness we need to apply the rightful tests on the dog's training in the same vein that Koehler trained to determine the difference.

I think a lot of people look at it through rose tinted glasses, "In the good old days when Koehler was popular, any dog could behave reliably off leash"... sure. We also didn't have the variety of breeds around that we do now, dogs didn't live as long as they do now, dogs that didn't fit the mould would have likely been shot or PTS rather than worked with like we do now and society overall is completely different - there is no comparing "then" to "now".

I am only comparing then to now in regards to leash laws in the sense that we don't put our dogs through the same paces as we did in the old days to test Koehler against the modern training methods. I was pointing out what Koehler was about, to produce the dog in those days that people dreamed of having. Dog training has evolved to suit the times and what we require now from a trained dog, but if you want a companion animal reliable off leash the Koehler system does a good job of that, it certainly doesn't lack anything in that regard which was Koehler's aim. It's like saying a V8 Supercar is no good because you can't get one over the speed bumps at the shops without tearing all the spoilers off being so low to the ground and the interior is full of bars and equipment there is no room for the kids and the dogs, it's true that my old trusty wagon is a far better car for shopping, but I wouldn't want to meet a Supercar on the race track thinking my old wagon was better at that job, so when we discuss Koehler we need to compare apples with apples and reading through these interesting posts I don't see that we are doing that,just my opinion for what it's worth

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Huski Personally I prefer to teach my dogs to go into drive when I command them to do so (like in the obedience ring) and then teach manners and calm and appropriate behaviour for other times like when we're out on a walk.

That's fine Huski. Some of us are only looking for one. And the video I posted shows a very good example of one - one that will work everywhere and anywhere - properly trained of course.

You prefer the other one when in competition, and that's fine. But I don't see why those who prefer just one both in and out of competition are bad mouthed for it. They represent different aims that's all.

[PAX]

I should keep sitting on my fingers but can't

For me, i love my dogs, i hope they love me just as much. I want to give them every chance to learn 'what is right' but that is my idea not theirs..I know they never want to piss me off by choice, i also never want to hurt them. I hope i'm smarter than my dogs and i figure out ways to get what I want by giving them what they want, its worked well so far.My very driven dog is one of the most obedient dogs you could ever meet, he's never been corrected by me other than the denial of his wanted reward.For me, i can sleep easy knowing my dogs are polite, great with the situations they have to cope with and also win me the odd trophy all in a happy, fun way.

I believe K methods are out of favour because we have learnt better ways to manage behavoiur. My Father used to belt us with his belt, we didnt get belted often but had bruises when he did, often it was the wrong kid getting belted. I have never smacked my kids, and so far they are pretty awesome, far better than half of my siblings.

My dogs are my enjoyment, hobby and pleasure, i dont use harsh training methods that make me feel bad at the end of the day.I'm pretty sure anyone that meets my dogs think they are pretty great too.

It's funny how reward/motivational based trainers get bagged out when most of us started off as correction trainers.

[Falcor]

In Keohler's days there were no leash laws to abide by as we have today, we would never think regardless of the obedience and reliablity we have achieved in sport or other disciplines to simply window shop around the city block casually with an off leash dog to test the reliability that Koehler trained, most of us wouldn't know if our training system produced reliablility in those circumstances as we can no longer legally take a dog through such an exercise as Koehler could in his days.

You sound familiar. I'll make an open admission, my old boy who recently passed away at 11 due to cancer only ever wore a leash crossing the main rd. Illegal, possibly stupid, but that's what we did. I took him to a seminar with dozens of dogs and people (who will happily verify) and left him in a down-stay while I walked to the next building to use the bathroom. I didn't ever proof him to anywhere near that level, he just loved doing stuff for me and with me.

We would hike every weekend for hours, including into the evening, where he would like to hunt but would always return to my call (except one time, that sucked, but I found him again, injured).

So I'm pretty confident in my training system.

I also walk my severely DA dog through off-leash areas every night without incident. These are pretty good tests of reliability I reckon. But sure, no doubt there are some Koehler trainers out there getting similar results. They just aren't so common these days.

[Falcor]

In Keohler's days there were no leash laws to abide by as we have today, we would never think regardless of the obedience and reliablity we have achieved in sport or other disciplines to simply window shop around the city block casually with an off leash dog to test the reliability that Koehler trained, most of us wouldn't know if our training system produced reliablility in those circumstances as we can no longer legally take a dog through such an exercise as Koehler could in his days.

You sound familiar. I'll make an open admission, my old boy who recently passed away at 11 due to cancer only ever wore a leash crossing the main rd. Illegal, possibly stupid, but that's what we did. I took him to a seminar with dozens of dogs and people (who will happily verify) and left him in a down-stay while I walked to the next building to use the bathroom. I didn't ever proof him to anywhere near that level, he just loved doing stuff for me and with me.

We would hike every weekend for hours, including into the evening, where he would like to hunt but would always return to my call (except one time, that sucked, but I found him again, injured).

So I'm pretty confident in my training system.

I also walk my severely DA dog through off-leash areas every night without incident. These are pretty good tests of reliability I reckon. But sure, no doubt there are some Koehler trainers out there getting similar results. They just aren't so common these days.

I am sorry to hear of your old boy's recent passing Adian2 my condolences. Not many people train for general off leash obedience as they used to or train as you have described and regularly tested it's reliability, so the Koehler symbol these days is rarely shown to gain an appreciation for what the system correctly carried out produced, I can understand that today. I think Koehler is often mis-appropriated in some training methods I have seen at obedience clubs with the choke chain said to Koehler which it isn't, I don't know what it is other than traditional yank and crank? Koehler didn't start pups or young dogs off on a short leash and choker, hand yanking them into position as these clubs I have seen project with a short series of about turns 100 times over with a dog cowering correction, Keohler started on a long line where there was distance between the dog handler at the end of the line for the dog to chase you and keep up. The dog wouldn't have hit the end of the line more than 3 or 4 times before he/she focused on the chase making up the game. Long line change of direction in an open space in the Koehler foundation training is not unpleasant for the dog at all in fact you have a wonderful time with a new dog in a long line, "if" you do it properly. By the time you get to the standard leash, the dog has learned focus there are no corrections applied, the dog knows the game and they are focused and attentive. Personally, I think the long line work on a new dog along with toy or food reward as a double reinforcer is an excellent start to leash behaviour, "if" you do it properly.

[Falcor]

It's funny how reward/motivational based trainers get bagged out when most of us started off as correction trainers.

Pax,

Correctional trainers and training Keohler I think are two different things. I have seen some very poor replications of supposedly Koehler work in correction training is no wonder trainers moved away from such a system, but in these instances these correction based systems were nothing like Koehler as the system didn't teach the dog the right learning behaviour, it taught only to avoid corrections, bearing in mind Keohlers system aimed at off leash work, cannot correct a dog without a collar and leash, but some of these correction based off shoots of Koehler's system, were solely based on correction avoidance, Koehler taught far more than that.

[OSoSwift]

my dogs are extremely good off leash, and walking on leash and working in an animated way while trialing. They know different things are required of them in different situations. Why would you think that being positive reinforcement based people would only focus on training for competition???

Like I said my dogs do get corrections, never for competition work, they do if they are about to sniff a snake or try to chase off after wildlife. My dogs are off lead everyday in 5 acres surrounded by livestock fencing and could take off if they really wanted to chasing rabbits, roos and foxes but as far as they are concerned it is far more motivating and fun sticking around.

[Kavik]

Off leash reliability around distractions in everyday life? Sure :D

[Kavik]

Posted by megan Have you even looked into motivation based methods? They are all about choice and getting the dog to choose the right one. Google "It's yer choice" game. Warning: Your dog may have fun playing it.

Yep nice video showing how corrections can work to help the dog make the right choice.

The dog is not physically corrected with a leash to teach it how to make the right choice.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Kavik Off leash reliability around distractions in everyday life? Sure

A nice video, but it really does surprise me that you can claim that that dog still in training is reliable. The dog will be trained and reliable when she can put away the food and get the same behavior. As I said, to me, what I am seeing is a dog being trained, not a fully trained reliable dog.