Koehler Training In Sydney?

[Red Fox]

Posted by Huski To be honest I find that quite sad. You certainly wouldn't be likely to win with a dog like that against any top competitors here, and there is so much room for improvement that I am confused why you'd never aim for a higher standard or to at least have a better dog. If that's the best koehler training can produce, I am majorly underwhelmed.

What makes you assume that my training goal is specifically or solely aimed at competition? If you want to train specifically to win competition then fine. The dog in that video was not trained specifically or solely for competition.

It doens't matter what you are aiming for, shouldn't you always want to get the best out of your dog?

Yes it does. You're talking about two different things ;) With LLW you're aiming for a calm, almost indifferent dog. One that is paying attention to the handler but not 'engaging' or animated so to speak. With comp heelwork you want animated, focussed ALIVE! Can't get that with Koehler but you can train a LLW reliably with his method.

JMO.

[Red Fox]

All right then. If I want to train the dog myself, and if it is not Koehler, for basic obedience, what books or videos would you recommend?

How old is your pup?

'The focussed puppy' is a good starting point for a young dog http://www.agilityclick.com/prod53.htm

'Training in Drive' Dildei and Booth http://dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DGT151 for an older dog.

Also have a look at Leerburg on demand. Heaps of free vids http://leerburg.com/flix/category.php?categoryid=30

The Ellis stuff is well worth a watch http://leerburg.com/flix/category.php?categoryid=10

There are free eBooks too http://leerburg.com/dogtrainingebooks.htm

I still think Koehler is worth a read for the leash walking. You can take what you need and disregard the rest.

Hope that helps

[Weasels]

You make sure the dog doesn't have something more fun to do

LOL. Of course heaven forbid teaching the dog to act responsibility. Being responsible means making the right choice even if you might at the moment prefer to do something else. If you never allow that choice, you may well train behavior, but you haven't trained responsibility.

Wow, that is the complete opposite conclusion that I would come to.

For example, if my dog is off sniffing something and I decide I don't want him to go any further, I yell out "That's far enough buddy" even though he is clearly enjoying the sniff. He is far enough away that I couldn't deliver an effective reward OR correction. Now here one of two things can happen.

In my instance, Weez has been trained using 99.9% +R due to his timidity issues. I know he will stop chasing the sniff because a) From his perpective, being close to me is awesome due to prior work on building a reward history; and b) Doing what I say has always worked out well for him in the past, and hopefully he has been classically conditioned to get a warm fuzzy feeling when he does what I say (I should point out that "that's far enough" is a command I have only started using in the past few days, so this isn't a trained cue).

If he has been trained using corrections, he won't have this classical conditioning to enjoy taking commands (he may even have the opposite). Sooner or later he may figure out "hehe you're too far away to correct me, why would I come over to you? This dog over here I want to greet is way cooler than you." Or even "when you're at work I don't get punished for destroying shoes, now's my chance" as opposed to "why would I want to destroy shoes? It's always been more fun to play with my own toys because I've built positive associations with them."

If you have trained a reward history correctly, there IS nothing more fun than what you want your dog to do.

[huski]

Yes it does. You're talking about two different things ;) With LLW you're aiming for a calm, almost indifferent dog. One that is paying attention to the handler but not 'engaging' or animated so to speak. With comp heelwork you want animated, focussed ALIVE! Can't get that with Koehler but you can train a LLW reliably with his method.

JMO.

When I am talking about getting the best out of your dog, I am not saying the dog needs to remain in drive or something for that to be the 'best'.

IMO it is about the attitude we take to training anything with our dogs, in my mind it doesn't matter what you are training, you should be trying to use the methods that suit your dog the best and get the best out of them. Having a dog that can remain calm and well behaved in every day situations is still part of getting the best out of your dog, IMO.

[toshman]

You make sure the dog doesn't have something more fun to do

LOL. Of course heaven forbid teaching the dog to act responsibility. Being responsible means making the right choice even if you might at the moment prefer to do something else. If you never allow that choice, you may well train behavior, but you haven't trained responsibility.

Have you even looked into motivation based methods? They are all about choice and getting the dog to choose the right one. Google "It's yer choice" game. Warning: Your dog may have fun playing it.

When I look at the Susan Garrett crate games video, and when I see dogs that have been trained to play that game, all I can see is the dog acting responsibly IOW, the dogs have a job to do (go to their crates and stay there until released) and by doing it they are acting responsibly - and having fun at the same time

[Red Fox]

Yes it does. You're talking about two different things ;) With LLW you're aiming for a calm, almost indifferent dog. One that is paying attention to the handler but not 'engaging' or animated so to speak. With comp heelwork you want animated, focussed ALIVE! Can't get that with Koehler but you can train a LLW reliably with his method.

JMO.

When I am talking about getting the best out of your dog, I am not saying the dog needs to remain in drive or something for that to be the 'best'.

IMO it is about the attitude we take to training anything with our dogs, in my mind it doesn't matter what you are training, you should be trying to use the methods that suit your dog the best and get the best out of them. Having a dog that can remain calm and well behaved in every day situations is still part of getting the best out of your dog, IMO.

And you don't think you can get the best out of your dog with Koehler LLW techniques? (or perhaps a slightly modified version there-of)?

I'm not having a dig Huski, just curious.

[Aidan3]

You can teach good manners and making good choices through having fun

Not if the dog has something more fun to do.

Choice is a motivator in behaviour, but this really isn't an issue with good quality training. Yes, we need to control the environment (regardless of the training employed) but once we have a fluent behaviour under stimulus control "something more fun" is no longer an issue.

"Something more fun" is not an issue exclusive to positive reinforcement training either. Koehler training tightly controls the environment with the use of long line training and collar corrections.

[The Spotted Devil]

All right then. If I want to train the dog myself, and if it is not Koehler, for basic obedience, what books or videos would you recommend?

I second The Focussed Puppy! Although I haven't read it I've heard great things about When Pigs Fly Good luck and do come join us in the training thread!

[The Spotted Devil]

*gremlins*

Edited December 13, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[huski]

And you don't think you can get the best out of your dog with Koehler LLW techniques? (or perhaps a slightly modified version there-of)?

I'm not having a dig Huski, just curious.

No that's not what I said nor what my original comment about getting the best out of your dog was referring to.

What originally prompted my comment that training should be about getting the best out of your dog was itsadogslife saying that they would be happy with a dog that worked like the one in the second vid they posted. I asked why, because to me, training should be about getting the best out of your dog, and IMO, I would be shocked if that video was the best that dog had to give. Why wouldn't you want to get the best out of your dog?

Edited December 13, 2011 by huski

[itsadogslife]

Posted by megan Have you even looked into motivation based methods? They are all about choice and getting the dog to choose the right one. Google "It's yer choice" game. Warning: Your dog may have fun playing it.

Yep nice video showing how corrections can work to help the dog make the right choice.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Huski Regardless of what methods the other competitors used, the standard was obviously very low if the dog in that video scored the highest.

The dog scored 196.5 Obviously American judges are all incompetant fools as well, no doubt.

[huski]

Posted by Huski Regardless of what methods the other competitors used, the standard was obviously very low if the dog in that video scored the highest.

The dog scored 196.5 Obviously American judges are all incompetant fools as well, no doubt.

Too bad there's no points to be scored for the dog's attitude in the ring or for speedy responses to commands etc.

I see dogs like that at trials all the time, I honestly find it really sad that anyone would watch that vid and think that's an example of awesome work.

[OSoSwift]

Should post a bedazzled, Ptolomy or one of the other wonderful vids of very motivated dogs working

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Huski Where is the engagement with the handler? The dog isn't even looking at the handler,

The dog is isn't looking at the handler? lol. How do you suppose the dog remains in heel if it wasn't paying attention to the handler? Some of us are unconcerned to have a dog stare up at our faces in a trained display of adoration.

[Jumabaar]

Posted by Huski Regardless of what methods the other competitors used, the standard was obviously very low if the dog in that video scored the highest.

The dog scored 196.5 Obviously American judges are all incompetant fools as well, no doubt.

Too bad there's no points to be scored for the dog's attitude in the ring or for speedy responses to commands etc.

I see dogs like that at trials all the time, I honestly find it really sad that anyone would watch that vid and think that's an example of awesome work.

That was what made me think of Rally-O. The dog and Handler have no bond so would struggle to do any sport other than formal obedience. They would struggle with agility, flyball, Rally, Heelwork to music. The most amazing Obedience dogs I have seen have been able to turn their paw to almost anything because of their connection with the handler!

[huski]

Posted by Huski Where is the engagement with the handler? The dog isn't even looking at the handler,

The dog is isn't looking at the handler? lol. How do you suppose the dog remains in heel if it wasn't paying attention to the handler? Some of us are unconcerned to have a dog stare up at our faces in a trained display of adoration.

There is a clear disconnect between dog and handler in that video and it's sad that you can't see that.

Look how the dog looks around when it's left in the stand for COP, it's bored and disengaged with the handler, it's just going through the motions. Look how slowly it responds to commands, it takes a century to drop - if that's work you are happy to except with your own dog that is your prerogative, but don't try to tell me that is a great example of a good working partnership between dog and handler, or that training with methods like that produces the best results.

Edited December 13, 2011 by huski

[Falcor]

Folks,

Koehler's training method was about achieving reliable off leash obedience as the measure. It was nothing about producing animated heeling with a spring in the step and other such behaviour mentioned. It was simply take a Keohler trained dog along a daily routine off leash against a dog trained in another method to test the reliabilty of the dog throughout various distractions and evironments.

In Keohler's days there were no leash laws to abide by as we have today, we would never think regardless of the obedience and reliablity we have achieved in sport or other disciplines to simply window shop around the city block casually with an off leash dog to test the reliability that Koehler trained, most of us wouldn't know if our training system produced reliablility in those circumstances as we can no longer legally take a dog through such an exercise as Koehler could in his days.

To rate a dog trained in Koehler methods against anything else in fairness we need to apply the rightful tests on the dog's training in the same vein that Koehler trained to determine the difference.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Huski there is so much room for improvement that I am confused why you'd never aim for a higher standard or to at least have a better dog.

Ok, take a look at the dog heeling offlead in that video, imagine the exact same behavior in the dog as it takes a casual stroll with it's owner. Are you saying that that performance can be improved? What do you mean by that? That the dog should be in high drive, prancing on all fours, looking at adoringly at its owner as they enjoy a causal stroll?

Why would you want a dog like that on a casual walk?

That is what the dog has been trained for - to be attentive and responsible in ordinary life. Why can you not understand that the aim of training here is different?

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Falcor To rate a dog trained in Koehler methods against anything else in fairness we need to apply the rightful tests on the dog's training in the same vein that Koehler trained to determine the difference.

Thank you Falcor. Finally someone who understand the different aims of training at work here.