Koehler Training In Sydney?

[Kavik]

I really think that the important thing as many people have said is that this new dog is NOT your old dog. Different dog, different breed, from a different source, and you have probably already done different training. While I understand the fear that this dog could develop the same problems as your last dog (my old dog is dog aggressive, it has been hard not to let the fear of that occurring with my younger dogs rule my training), it is important not to let that rule your relationship. Your new dog may have no inclination to chase bikes. Your old dog probably needed a different approach to what you were able to find with the trainers you accessed (though he may not have needed Koehler either), your young dog may need a different approach than your old dog. Like I said in a previous post, my OH's bully and others I have met are great at passive resistance. I think controlling access to reinforcement (including environmental reinforcement) would be a useful tool with a breed not known for its biddable nature in regards to obedience.

[Kippy]

Dog lunges at kids. Dog gets corrected - that hurts. Dog stops lunging period

and altho it still hates kids, it is prevented from lunging ..

You haven't taught this dog to see kids in a different light - you've not stopped the aggression, just stopped the action.Dog was corrected for the action, not the thought/feeling

And why does the dog hate kids? Probably a fear reaction, insecurity?. The dog avoids a correction and doesn't lunge but then facing kids learns they are not the problem first perceived and begins to relax around them, that can also happen too?

[ursus]

Dog lunges at kids. Dog gets corrected - that hurts. Dog stops lunging period

and altho it still hates kids, it is prevented from lunging ..

You haven't taught this dog to see kids in a different light - you've not stopped the aggression, just stopped the action.Dog was corrected for the action, not the thought/feeling

I think it is close to 70% of all drivers that think that speed limits are stupid and unnecessary. Yet, the way to get the drivers to comply with the rule is based on correction, escalating with the degree and the number of violations. The thinking is the same (hate the speed limit, dammit!), but the action is reinforced. The result - improved safety for the road participants. In the meantime the media and the police can go on to educating drivers and promoting better driving habits on conscious level. One does not exclude the other.

[ursus]

Kippy those examples you gave are different from an owner giving a leash correction.

How?

[Kavik]

Thought this might be appropriate lol

[Bully]

With all these awesome rewards based training methods now available that get great results and are a lot of fun, I just don't understand why someone would WANT to use Koehler.

[Aidan3]

If the training stopped there, that would be wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is dangerous thinking when it comes to dangerous dogs and kids. You would have absolutely no evidence that this dog would be safe.

Do you have any evidence of wishful thinking in that scenario or is it just your feeling on the matter?

The logic behind that question is absent, but you don't have to be in the business too long to hear the stories of dogs that "just snap one day out of the blue" and the history behind those dogs.

Let's say we train a dog to do an obedience routine. We use a few well-timed corrections and he turns out wonderful routine after wonderful routine in training. Then we get to trial day, and he barely passes. The situation is different, none of the same cues are there, and his performance falls apart.

Not such a big deal in an obedience trial. A really big deal when it's a child's face.

I have a couple of examples, one was a next door neighbours dog years ago who used to chase cars. He was hit by a car coming the other way when focused on another, luckily he went under the car and got a few scrapes injury wise that was all but a decent fright in the process. He never chased a car again or ran onto the road, what happened there?

Another was a dog when we were kids used to chase us on our bikes and try to bite our legs. A friends older brother kicked the dog in the head one day when it chased him, the dog never chased bikes again.

Punishment can be permanent. Do you know exactly which factors result in the permanent absence of unwanted behaviour so that you can reliably correct a dog for lunging at a child and guarantee that it will be safe until the day it dies of old age?

I don't.

And in any case, you're talking about punishing a dog for lunging. A dog doesn't have to lunge to bite a child.

[The Spotted Devil]

I understand what you are saying ursus but humans have a frontal lobe and can therefore apply reasoning - well they should be able to but I know I don't always ;)

In addition, dogs as a rule are excellent at association and poor at generalisation - kind of opposite to humans. I tend to assume that if a dog doesn't do as it's told it's either confused or underpaid.

[persephone]

Kippy those examples you gave are different from an owner giving a leash correction.

How?

Because the injury was given by the object being chased?

Because I am sure the injury was much more shocking and painful than a leash correction given by the average dog owner?

Because the injury happened out on the road , in direct contact with the car/person being chased?

Because there was no owner attached to the dog to take the dog's attention off the immediate after effect?

I'm sure someone will have technical terms for it ..

[persephone]

I tend to assume that if a dog doesn't do as it's told it's either confused or underpaid

[Weasels]

I think it is close to 70% of all drivers that think that speed limits are stupid and unnecessary. Yet, the way to get the drivers to comply with the rule is based on correction, escalating with the degree and the number of violations. The thinking is the same (hate the speed limit, dammit!), but the action is reinforced. The result - improved safety for the road participants. In the meantime the media and the police can go on to educating drivers and promoting better driving habits on conscious level. One does not exclude the other.

But as soon as someone thinks they can get away with it, they're off speeding again.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Weasels

[Kippy]

Let's say we train a dog to do an obedience routine. We use a few well-timed corrections and he turns out wonderful routine after wonderful routine in training. Then we get to trial day, and he barely passes. The situation is different, none of the same cues are there, and his performance falls apart.

Not such a big deal in an obedience trial. A really big deal when it's a child's face.

That happens with dogs trained in reward based methods also same thing except the one's who haven't been corrected have learned no consequence.

I can assure you a dog assumed fixed of aggression towards a child would never be close enough under my control to test it.

[ursus]

I really think that the important thing as many people have said is that this new dog is NOT your old dog. Different dog, different breed, from a different source, and you have probably already done different training. While I understand the fear that this dog could develop the same problems as your last dog (my old dog is dog aggressive, it has been hard not to let the fear of that occurring with my younger dogs rule my training), it is important not to let that rule your relationship. Your new dog may have no inclination to chase bikes. Your old dog probably needed a different approach to what you were able to find with the trainers you accessed (though he may not have needed Koehler either), your young dog may need a different approach than your old dog. Like I said in a previous post, my OH's bully and others I have met are great at passive resistance. I think controlling access to reinforcement (including environmental reinforcement) would be a useful tool with a breed not known for its biddable nature in regards to obedience.

I agree 100% with your post. I do realise that this dog is most likely very different from the previous one. The most important lesson I learned is that dog owners generally know much less about dog training than they think. I don't have the confidence, qualifications and experience to train dogs. I want to find a coach whom I trust,so that there is no temptation to second-guess what he does or recommends. Imagine questioning your doctor's prescriptions every time, it would be a nightmare! I love my dog (I had many dogs before) and I want to enjoy training and spending time with her. So that's what I am actually doing, looking for a good coach. I will definitely contact K9Pro, as I am in Sydney.

[Aidan3]

Let's say we train a dog to do an obedience routine. We use a few well-timed corrections and he turns out wonderful routine after wonderful routine in training. Then we get to trial day, and he barely passes. The situation is different, none of the same cues are there, and his performance falls apart.

Not such a big deal in an obedience trial. A really big deal when it's a child's face.

That happens with dogs trained in reward based methods also same thing except the one's who haven't been corrected have learned no consequence.

I can assure you a dog assumed fixed of aggression towards a child would never be close enough under my control to test it.

Righto, so now we're roughly on the same page. We cannot guarantee behaviour in any animal so we need to be responsible with all dogs, but especially dogs who have a history.

With many, many caveats I do put dogs with histories back into homes with kids. These are dogs who have learned to be comfortable around kids and the many unpredictable things kids do, and we can see that not just by their obvious behaviour but their whole physiology. You can't teach that stuff directly using corrections, but you can using classical conditioning and reward.

[itsadogslife]

posted by lovemesideways This was written by 1 William Koehler, whose methods you so faithfully follow and assure us are the best and most effective.

I think most people reading this know that this is not what I have been saying. But as you have no interest in making any effort at reasonable disagreement, I'll not waste my time responding to your dribble.

So yes, I would assume you beat your dog in my sense of the word, but maybe you don't see smacking them around a little with a belt as beating. Its all training to make them perfect by 10 weeks right?

I have tried to be polite, I understand that people disagree on these matters and that's fine. But I see no reason why people cannot disagree without resorting to ignorant attacks upon others that they may disagree with. A method, no matter whose it is, is only as good as the person holding the lead. As such, I see no reason to continue to talking to you.

[lovemesideways]

posted by lovemesideways This was written by 1 William Koehler, whose methods you so faithfully follow and assure us are the best and most effective.

I think most people reading this know that this is not what I have been saying. But as you have no interest in making any effort at reasonable disagreement, I'll not waste my time responding to your dribble.

So yes, I would assume you beat your dog in my sense of the word, but maybe you don't see smacking them around a little with a belt as beating. Its all training to make them perfect by 10 weeks right?

I have tried to be polite, I understand that people disagree on these matters and that's fine. But I see no reason why people cannot disagree without resorting to ignorant attacks upon others that they may disagree with. A method, no matter whose it is, is only as good as the person holding the lead. As such, I see no reason to continue to talking to you.

Seeing as I have no wish to converse with someone who thinks screaming Out at a 8 week old puppy and hitting it with a belt equals training, at least we agree on something

Edited December 12, 2011 by lovemesideways

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Kavik With all these awesome rewards based training methods now available that get great results and are a lot of fun, I just don't understand why someone would WANT to use Koehler.

Kavik this is not aimed at you personally, I know we disagree and will probably continue to do so. But I want to turn this around and get you to look at it from the average dog owners perspective. (in other words, from the perspective that I see things) Here is video of a six month old dog being trained to heel using Micheal Ellis's techniques. Now once again, let me make clear, I think Ellis is a brilliant dog trainer, so I am not arguing that this method or this trainer is better than that or this trainer. Now imagine the average person saw this dog being heeled down the road in this manner. You don't think they would think something odd was going on? Imagine if they walked up to the owner and asked, why is your dog behaving that way? and the owner said, because I trained him to heel this way. Why says the average dog owner? Because I want my dog to have 100% focus on me at all times says the owner. You don't think the average person wouldn't walk away thinking to himself something very weird is going own with that owner, why would anyone want to train a dog that way?

Now let's imagine Micheal Ellis is taking his dog on a causal walk around to the shops, do you think he would be heeling his dog in that fashion? Or do you not rather imagine that his dog would look like a calm, relaxed dog enjoying a walk with his owner. Imagine that dog and you will see the dog that I want, behaving in the manner I want. A well trained Koehler dog gives you that kind of dog why would I use Micheal Ellis's techniques for training in drive when I have no use for it?

Why does a very small percentage of the dog owning population condemn a method specifically designed and developed for the 'average dog owner' from the complete beginner to the more advanced, for methods and techniques which produce behaviors that the average dog owner would consider patently ridiculous?

And one more question, how long can the dog in the video be reasonably expected to maintain that total 100% focus without reward? Let's consider a fully trained dog - how long once the dog has been trained can they reasonably be expected to maintain that drive and focus?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRksbKrYSI

Edited December 12, 2011 by itsadogslife

[Kavik]

Impressive dog

1) The people who have seen me do attention heeling at the shops or on walks (nowhere near that good!) have been impressed with my dog. Only time I got weird looks was when I was doing the food spitting technique outlined in an earlier Leerburg video lol.

2) No I would not think Michael Ellis would walk his dog in attention heel on a casual walk to the shops. He would probably do loose leash walking - there is no need to use Koehler for LLW - there are many rewards based methods (withor without corrections) that can be used to teach this.

3) I think the average dog owner is quite capable of using rewards based methods to teach whatever level of obedience they wish to achieve. If they don't wish to train attention heeling they don't have to - they are more than welcome to train a casual LLW. I am not currently training up a dog for competition obedience (my ob prospect has health issues)so am not training attention heeling atm, but mine can LLW fine. Sometimes they offer attention heeling (including the one who has never been taught attention heeling ever - sometimes for quite a distance too ) which I will pay.

4) I don't know how long the dog in the video can keep focus without reward - it is only a puppy. That is certainly the tricky part of competition obedience - it is quite a long time for them to work well. You would build up duration. It would depend on the training and on the dog and handler. Since I have seen some great vids of dogs, esp SchH dogs, with great attention during the whole routine, it can be done

Edited December 12, 2011 by Kavik

[Aidan3]

And one more question, how long can the dog in the video be reasonably expected to maintain that total 100% focus without reward?

When my bitch was that age she managed 3.6km. But we didn't walk down the street like that

[itsadogslife]

Posted by kavik I don't know how long the dog in the video can keep focus without reward - it is only a puppy. That is certainly the tricky part of competition obedience - it is quite a long time for them to work well. You would build up duration. It would depend on the training and on the dog and handler. Since I have seen some great vids of dogs, esp SchH dogs, with great attention during the whole routine, it can be done

But I wasn't asking how long they can maintain that drive and focus in competition, I was wondering how long they can maintain they level of drive and focus full stop?

there is no need to use Koehler for LLW - there are many rewards based methods (withor without corrections) that can be used to teach this.

But the Koehler method is reward based. How else can you teach a dog to do something (as opposed to stop doing something) and then keep doing it, unless it is rewarding?

Surely the science alone must tell you that? Behaviour does not have a tendency to repeat unless it is reinforcing in some way or another.