Koehler Training In Sydney?

[lovemesideways]

SO, Are you saying you would put a bark collar on a 8 week old puppy?

No. But I would not hesitate to give an 'out' correction.

Screaming OUT at a 8 week old puppy who has only been in your home for a small amount of time, is probably still unsure/adjusting to its surroundings and making noise because there are Unsure, scared, cold, need to pee, thirsty, hungry etc is not what I would call training. Its what I would call stupid.

You aren't training your dog, you are scaring them into silence with no thought to why they are whining. And its not going to work half the time. In fact not only will it not work, it can go very badly indeed for the wrong temperament of dog.

Posted by lovemesideways: I really feel like you're missing the big picture here. You want a dog who will do all these things, do you care how he does them? Do you care if your dog can heel perfectly, even though he is cowering and working with no enthusiasm or drive. Or a dog that is reliable off leash by your programs standards, but flinches when you recall it because its expecting a correction?

If you have trained previous dogs using the Koehler Method as instructed from the book (without revision or modification) and got these kinds of result, then it is a very good thing that you train with different methods now. Personally, none of the things you imply here and elsewhere are indicative of how my dog behaved to command. Except for the perfect heeling and reliable recall that is.

The point is I don't need to train dogs in the Koehler method to test it out and find its limitations, dog training has progressed past this because others already have done it. Just like I don't need to sail around the earth to find out it isn't flat, someone already did that for me. I am lucky enough to be able to take their knowledge and use it.

I would love to see some video of your perfect heeling dog by the way. Perhaps your idea of "perfect heeling" is not the same as mine.

Do you realise how offensive it is to imply that someone whom you have never met 'beats' their dog?

From that time on, when he offends, rush back to the line-not the dog-and work your way to the collar; then give him a good shaking and sting his upper thighs a bit with a folded belt.

I would call this beating your dog. Smacking a 8 week old puppy with a belt is NOT appropriate training. This was written by 1 William Koehler, whose methods you so faithfully follow and assure us are the best and most effective. So yes, I would assume you beat your dog in my sense of the word, but maybe you don't see smacking them around a little with a belt as beating. Its all training to make them perfect by 10 weeks right?

A dog who won't even bother to leave you once you let it off leash because nothing in the world is of any interest at all except you, you are the centre of that dogs universe and nothing else matters. And achieve this without have to beat it into you dog?

How about a dog that heels off-lead and remains attentive whilst at the same time takes in the surroundings?

Attentivenss to the handler in Koehler’s method is the same kind of attentiveness that a person has when driving a car. Personally, driving the car is the last thing I am thinking of when driving, yet I am remain attentive, all the while I can carry on a conversation with the person next to me, admire the scenery, look out for a house I am looking for etc. A trained behavior as Koehler sees it, becomes automatic, unconscious, like driving a car. This free up the mind to take in the scenery and surroundings without losing attentiveness. I certainly would not want my dog to have no other interest in the world other than me. Being attentive to me does not mean sole focus on me to the exclusion of everything else.

I don't want my dog heeling and watching the scenery. If we are going for a relaxed stroll then sure, they can be attentive but relaxed and having a sniff around at the same time. If I have a dog who is heeling I want to achieve 100% focus. Not a dog who is vaguely paying attention out of habit and training, but not really interested. A dog who is watching me so they don't get another correction, but not focused. Not driven.

I want a dog who is so excited to work with me, so totally driven that they are literally shivering with anticipation.

And maybe these are only the "20%" who don't pass your program, but out of 100 dogs, thats still 20 who don't pass. 20 dogs who are not made to work with a program like Koehlers.

I myself would much rather spend the time and energy on a program with a 100% success rate for every dog and committed handler

Yet if I were to show you evidence that your methods did not meet with 100% success rate you would no doubt complain that the handler was not committed, did not do the work, did not follow the instructions etc. Yet Koehler failure to achieve 100% success rate is attributed by you to all manner faults of the method, such as “can’t handle corrections and turn into quivering nervous wreck who snap at the worst moment, mauling a child and being put to sleep”. Can you rachet up the emotional blackmail anymore?

If I can take any dog and train him with one method, I am certainly going to pick that over something the might work and might not. And I have completely sure that a heavily correction based method will not work for every dog. Simple as that.

Why is fact suddenly emotional blackmail? Because you don't like it?

If you took my dog Riddick and tried to train him using a heavy handed correction based method such as that created my william koehler, you would have a very messed up, terrified, shut down dog on your hands.

[lovemesideways]

You seem like you're interested in dog training, then don't make the mistake of sticking to just one method! Open your mind a bit!

Have a read of these,

Again, you have never met me, yet seem awfully free with your unfounded assumptions. Should I tell you that I have attended a workshop with Steve Courtney up in Sydney? Perhaps not, it might spoil your fantasies.

Then I would say I feel sorry for you and your dogs in how very close minded you are. I cringe to think of the treatment your next puppy will receive if it dares to whine because it needs to pee. Or the treatment your dog will receive next time it doesn't comply with a command for some reason or another.

So what improvements have been made to training in that time.

I don’t know. I ask, and you reply with nothing but emotional blackmail.

Actually I replied with some links to basics on training in drive. Which you ignored.

I mean scientifically, have you actualy looked?

You mean, am I well read in the science of behaviorism? The science founded by B.F. Skinner? The same science that has been discarded for over thirty years in the human sciences as being inadequate to explain behavior? The same science that treats the mind as irrelevant in explaining behavior? The science of Classical Conditioning? The science of Learning Theory? The science of Operant Conditioning?

No, I don't mean have you read up on the basics behind training. I mean have you actually looked at the reasons behind why training has moved forward. If the Koeler method was so completely perfect, then why would dog training have progressed at all?

I honestly feel sorry for your dog if this is all you want to do.

More patronizing insults? Can you provide an answer to the question that I reasonably asked or are you just going to continue with this emotional blackmail?

Again, not patronizing insults. Just fact. I feel sorry for the soft tempered puppy that ends up in a home where screaming Out is the equivalent of training.

Just so what, you can feel cool that you have a 10 week old puppy who comes off leash past distractions?

Yet more patronizing insults based on unfounded assumptions of a person and his dog that you have never met.

The only reason I can assume you would heavily correct a young puppy who will learn a much more solid basis of understanding if you take the time to actually teach them, is because you want fast and flashy results.

[lovemesideways]

Huski, here is a video of a Koehler trained dog in training for novice

ask away...

How do you know this dog was trained using Koehler based methods?

Poor dog and very poor work either way. Looks stressed and unsure. Dropping out of heel and then rushing forward with its ears half pinned. Nervous, even scared! Flinching when it did the wrong thing.

Looking away from its handler and not at all focused. Very very shoddy heel work and positions.

If you want a dog that works like that, then well thats up to you.

I want my dog looking something like this though

[ursus]

Who suggested giving a dog a hiding?

You did, but you don't seem to think giving a dog an occasional hiding is abuse. Not sure about Australia but giving your kid a hiding in New Zealand will see you before the courts, and rightfully so.

I didn't, the "hiding" was related to children, not dogs, and just as an illustration. Poor choice of words on my part.

[Jeff Jones]

itsadogslife do you have any video you can show us of your dogs or other dogs working using Koehler methods that you think are good and displays the benefits of the method?

Genuinely interested as I haven't really seen any dogs trained exclusively with Koehler methods.

I will upload a video to youtube later on and send you a link, I have a couple of old videos of dogs that have been trained using the Koehler method.

Huski, here is a video of a Koehler trained dog in training for novice

ask away...

I do not think I would be able to last long at that club with that instructor..

[Kavik]

With all these awesome rewards based training methods now available that get great results and are a lot of fun, I just don't understand why someone would WANT to use Koehler.

[persephone]

I felt sorry for that poodle pup ...it seemed it was interacting with the leash, not the person.

[Kippy]

itsadogslife do you have any video you can show us of your dogs or other dogs working using Koehler methods that you think are good and displays the benefits of the method?

Genuinely interested as I haven't really seen any dogs trained exclusively with Koehler methods.

Koehlers inspiration was off leash obedience for the general pet, once trained in his method you didn't need to own a leash. I am not sure that his methods were directed towards winning sporting trials as such, but I recall reading about him as a young guy rolling up to a major obedience trial on a bus with his scraggy old dog and no leash wanting to enter the trial. He talked his way into them accepting his entry and he won each division of the trial, the scene was like a kid and a scraggy dog roll up to trial against the best trainers in town and he blitzed them :D

[ursus]

And who's choice was that? Could you not have taken the dog to see someone else?

Chasing and biting is prey drive - normal. Pulling on leash (unless the dog has been taught otherwise) is also normal. Playing rough with other dogs is normal too for some dogs and pretty easily fixed - you just don't allow it. I'm not sure which behaviourist you saw but they sound pretty damn useless to me.

My dog was under two coaches and one behaviorist. I think it is a decent effort. Your last sentence basically summarises it. That's why I am doing my own research so I can filter out incompetent trainers for whom being politically correct is more important than getting results.

Edited December 11, 2011 by ursus

[wuffles]

A dog's welfare is more important than "getting results".

[Kippy]

A dog's welfare is more important than "getting results".

You think it's better to PTS than subject the dog to aversion and let live?

[wuffles]

A dog's welfare is more important than "getting results".

You think it's better to PTS than subject the dog to aversion and let live?

A puppy crying in its crate isn't a life or death situation, neither is whether a dog will heel nicely.

But in certain situations then yes, I would think PTS is a better option. Not saying anything about the OP's situation as I don't know them or their dog an I'm not an expert

[ursus]

A dog's welfare is more important than "getting results".

Depends how you define welfare. My dog is dead, how does that fit in?

Edit: I jumped in before reading replies. I disagree that killing is better.

Edited December 11, 2011 by ursus

[wuffles]

A dog's welfare is more important than "getting results".

Depends how you define welfare. My dog is dead, how does that fit in?

I guess we have a different view of welfare.

I can tell you that my dog would have a miserable existance if I hit her with a belt even once.

[ursus]

A dog's welfare is more important than "getting results".

Depends how you define welfare. My dog is dead, how does that fit in?

I guess we have a different view of welfare.

I can tell you that my dog would have a miserable existance if I hit her with a belt even once.

Do you ever correct your dog? If yes - how?

[wuffles]

Do you ever correct your dog? If yes - how?

For competition obedience behaviours, no, never, ever.

I have used a martingale with corrections to teach loose leash walking. Can't think of anything else.

I don't have a problem with people using corrections but I don't think it's right to push the line between corrections and abuse. I realise this is different for everyone so I'm fighting a losing battle even posting in this thread.

[ursus]

What's martingale, if you don't mind me asking?

[Kippy]

Do you ever correct your dog? If yes - how?

For competition obedience behaviours, no, never, ever.

I have used a martingale with corrections to teach loose leash walking. Can't think of anything else.

I don't have a problem with people using corrections but I don't think it's right to push the line between corrections and abuse. I realise this is different for everyone so I'm fighting a losing battle even posting in this thread.

I don't think you are understanding the OP's situation, she had a dog with aggression issues that was under a behaviourist and a couple of trainers, they couldn't fix the dog. The OP obviously was researching for herself understandable given things weren't working for her dog and makes some suggestion about different training tools and they tell her they don't use those tools and the dog ends up PTS.

Can you understand the OP wondering if perhaps someone had have fried her dog on an Ecollar a couple of times just maybe it may have improved the behaviour and her dog could be still alive?

[wuffles]

Do you ever correct your dog? If yes - how?

For competition obedience behaviours, no, never, ever.

I have used a martingale with corrections to teach loose leash walking. Can't think of anything else.

I don't have a problem with people using corrections but I don't think it's right to push the line between corrections and abuse. I realise this is different for everyone so I'm fighting a losing battle even posting in this thread.

I don't think you are understanding the OP's situation, she had a dog with aggression issues that was under a behaviourist and a couple of trainers, they couldn't fix the dog. The OP obviously was researching for herself understandable given things weren't working for her dog and makes some suggestion about different training tools and they tell her they don't use those tools and the dog ends up PTS.

Can you understand the OP wondering if perhaps someone had have fried her dog on an Ecollar a couple of times just maybe it may have improved the behaviour and her dog could be still alive?

Understand it, yes. That's why we are trying to help educate.

[persephone]

Can you understand the OP wondering if perhaps someone had have fried her dog on an Ecollar a couple of times just maybe it may have improved the behaviour and her dog could be still alive?

;) Interresting typo!

I sympathise with ursus.. having done the 'right' thing and engaged behaviourists and a 'coach' only to still have the dog PTS.

However.. Ursus, you have a new ,completely different little puppy now ..a sponge, ready for a happy and relaxed life , and probably a breeze to train using a method selected for you and her by someone experienced and perhaps recommended by folks on this forum.

There have been many problems solved, and many new dogs successfully grown & trained using methods you seem unsure of . Maybe as part of your research , arrange to meet up with some trainers, and see what they can do? The more practical info you have under your belt, the more likely you are to choose the best training method for this little pup