Koehler Training In Sydney?

[Bully]

Giving a bully an occasional or more than occasional hiding has no benefit at all. People say they are tough and do not feel pain or fear, but they are in fact extremely sensitive to abuse. Food and positive rewards do far more good with bullies than punishment.

Getting the FIRST six months right with a bully is far more important than any other time in its life. They do need a lot of socialisation with other animals when young and that should be in the form of controlled play. If the dog is too rough then take it away until it calms down. Teach the puppy to leave on command and to recall. Food is your friend here. No point beating and being aggressive to the puppy when it is already over excited or "aggressive".

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Jumabaar On reading that explanation I have to wonder if it was written for a certain disposition of dogs.

It is a method that was developed and tested over 16 years and 11,000 handlers and their dogs. It was proven to work with all dogs regardless of breed or temperament.

I think I will stick with my own method.

That's fine, I am not suggesting that you or anyone else do anything other than what works for you.

I also found this method showed results within a day or two- I personally wouldn't have the patience to walk around ignoring my dog for a week for 20minutes a day when a 5minute session of pretending I am a rabbit is better for my fitness.

And yet, on day 7 Koehler will test the attentiveness of the dog by finding a big distraction for the dog (such as a rabbit), he will walk the dog up to the rabbit to make sure the dog has seen it, and if the dog remains attentive and follows the handler when he turns, you then move onto the next section of the course (namely, teaching the heel). Will your method bring the same compliance under distraction in seven days?

So once again my correction based method actually has very few corrections in it.

There is a big difference between a technique or even a random collection of techniques and a 'method'. Why do you call your method correction based? Just because a method uses correction doesn't mean it is based on corrections? Surely not?

I believe in positive based training and have used it on my pup.

Any method, including Koehler, that hopes to teach a dog to do something is based on reinforcement. Correction alone, cannot teach a dog to do anything. At best it can stop a behaviour, but it cannot teach a new behavior.

[Kippy]

Kelpie-i, it wasn't the aggression in its pure sense. Let me give you an example. She would run after a jogger or a cyclist and bite their hands. She would jump at cars passing by. She could not normally play with other dogs: the intensity was the same with small poodles as it was with staffies or German Sheppards. She was pulling on the leash (including the Gentle Leader), so that after every walk my left shoulder was hrobbing. She was a rather large American Bulldog and could cause considerable damage. The last straw was her going after a person carrying a small poodle, biting him on the hand. Thankfully, the person turned out to be a dog coach (and his wife a dog behaviorist) and was very understanding. After this episode we eventually decided to put her down, which was very traumatic. Her behavior was attributed to anxiety.

I am not exclusively blaming coaches and the behaviorist working with her, as the dog probably had problems all along. My problem is that - in my opinion - not all possible methods were used with her. From what I have read e-collar could solve some of the problems. I am not going to the opposite extreme and be nasty to my dog (which I adore), I just want to find a coach who uses all modalities of training. I am not aiming at winning obedience competitions with my Bull Terrier, I want her to reliably perform important commands, so that I can take her for a walk and not be paranoid all the time that she will scare a child or chase a cat across a busy road.

And who's choice was that? Could you not have taken the dog to see someone else?Chasing and biting is prey drive - normal. Pulling on leash (unless the dog has been taught otherwise) is also normal. Playing rough with other dogs is normal too for some dogs and pretty easily fixed - you just don't allow it. I'm not sure which behaviourist you saw but they sound pretty damn useless to me.

I think she means that she couldn't find a trainer who would use other methods like Ecollars that type of thing, the "we don't use Ecollars that's cruel" mentality, there are plenty of trainers who have this mentality, it's not about whether an Ecollar may fix the behaviour, it's about an Ecollar breaching the trainer's policy on cruelty?

[lovemesideways]

Direct quote from one of Koehlers training books, this is in response to a young puppy making noise (after he has had 5 or 6 days to adjust of course)

"when he offends, rush back to the line-not the dog-and work your way to the collar; then give him a good shaking and sting his upper thighs a bit with a folded belt"

I someone think we're beyond this as far as training goes, not sure why you would want to go back.

What you should be looking for isn't someone who just used corrections, but someone who will use the correct tool for the situation. Whether that be clicker training or corrections

Edited December 11, 2011 by lovemesideways

[itsadogslife]

Posted by lovemesideways Direct quote from one of Koehlers training books, this is in response to a young puppy making noise (after he has had 5 or 6 days to adjust of course)

Seeing as this is a direct quote, you should have no trouble then providing the book, the page number and the year of edition in which this appeared. You might also like to expand the quote so that we can see where Koehler is referring to a 'young puppy making noise after he has had 5 or 6 days to adjust'.

Edited December 11, 2011 by itsadogslife

[Jumabaar]

Posted by Jumabaar On reading that explanation I have to wonder if it was written for a certain disposition of dogs.

It is a method that was developed and tested over 16 years and 11,000 handlers and their dogs. It was proven to work with all dogs regardless of breed or temperament.

I think I will stick with my own method.

That's fine, I am not suggesting that you or anyone else do anything other than what works for you.

I also found this method showed results within a day or two- I personally wouldn't have the patience to walk around ignoring my dog for a week for 20minutes a day when a 5minute session of pretending I am a rabbit is better for my fitness.

And yet, on day 7 Koehler will test the attentiveness of the dog by finding a big distraction for the dog (such as a rabbit), he will walk the dog up to the rabbit to make sure the dog has seen it, and if the dog remains attentive and follows the handler when he turns, you then move onto the next section of the course (namely, teaching the heel). Will your method bring the same compliance under distraction in seven days?

So once again my correction based method actually has very few corrections in it.

There is a big difference between a technique or even a random collection of techniques and a 'method'. Why do you call your method correction based? Just because a method uses correction doesn't mean it is based on corrections? Surely not?

I believe in positive based training and have used it on my pup.

Any method, including Koehler, that hopes to teach a dog to do something is based on reinforcement. Correction alone, cannot teach a dog to do anything. At best it can stop a behaviour, but it cannot teach a new behavior.

With my second dog yes my method had more corrections than rewards so I would determine it to be correction based. I gave two different scenarios. My older dog that required correction to achieve my result and my younger, new without the same hang ups puppy that I decided to use reward based methods with corrections where necessary. I recognised that my pup is not my older dog all over again so was happy to start again with positive training to see where it will get us And I think this is what others have been trying to say as well.

As for compliance I can walk my pup around dogs doing flyball, agility I can recall her off her litter sister who she has grown up with. She would prefer to stare at me than even look at a rabbit running let alone if it were boring and stationary lol. She has been called a snob by other people who have tried to get her attention because in all honesty I have built up a great reward history with her so she knows I am the winning bet for her- the rabbit has no history of reward so why go for something that you chase and don't catch when there is a 90% (ok I am not that fit 95%) chance that she will catch me??

Probably not in 7 days but at 8mths of age I am quite happy with that reliability, especially since she has been that good since about 6mths. I wouldn't expect to be able to walk a 6mth old pup that much for 7 days, well I wouldn't be comfortable doing it with regards to joints (as I do agility and flyball), so using the Koehler method I wouldn't start it till they were older, probably 8-9mths minimum) so if you factor in the time I would wait to be able to march around with my dog.... Well I have probably achieved my success a few months earlier than I would have with the Koehler method ;)

I will also add- times change. What people were doing 16 years ago (or longer) in other industries has been upgraded and new easier/better methods have been found. Why not the same in dog training?? Also the breeds popular for obedience etc have changed in this time so appropriate training methods have been created depending on breed traits.

PS you can teach new behaviours solely with corrections. They are not very helpful but you can tech them! aka correcting when a dog does not return will not only teach the dog not to recall but teaches many to actively run away!! Bam new behaviour created solely from correction based training. You can also teach a dog to cower when you go to grab their collar if you give them a good hiding each time.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Jumabaar

[lovemesideways]

Posted by lovemesideways Direct quote from one of Koehlers training books, this is in response to a young puppy making noise (after he has had 5 or 6 days to adjust of course)

Seeing as this is a direct quote, you should have no trouble then providing the book, the page number and the year of edition in which this appeared. You might also like to expand the quote so that we can see where Koehler is referring to a 'young puppy making noise after he has had 5 or 6 days to adjust'.

I sure can! I have the book right here actually

The book is The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training.

Page number is 64

Heres the full paragraph. It is in chapter 13. The puppy prospect. And it is in regards to bringing your puppy home for the first time.

"The right start

If he should whine and yelp excessively after he's had five or six days to adjust, you'll have to start correct him. For a small amount, you can prevent a common mistake even among experienced dog kennel people, that of making it possible for the dog to run away from correction. By equipping your pup with a snug collar from which a piece of light line is dragging, you can speedily convince him that, if he tries to avoid correction by holing up under something, he'll be brought out rapidly and quite uncomfortable. It's amazing how the presence of a light line can cause a pup to do a bit of reasoning. If the line is of slick material it will not catch on things, and there's not much chance of your dog being caught and choked by it. Use a line that would not hold the pup's dead weight if you feel your situation would permit an accident.

After a few times of snarling "out!" at him when he's creating a noise nuisance, he'll respond to your reproof with a show of guilt. From that time on, when he offends, rush back to the line-not the dog-and work your way to the collar; then give him a good shaking and sting his upper thighs a bit with a folded belt. No, such discouragement from a senseless practice will no blunt his alarm potential. And don't worry that he's too young to learn. Regardless of your pups age, your hand will be forced by your neighbors. "

As I said, I feel that we have moved beyond this highly harsh and simplistic view of training. No I do not have any issue with a well placed correction, I in fact own and use a prong collar. But using a method such snarling OUT! to make a puppy be quiet, or tying a string to a puppy so he can't get away when you drag him to you and smack him with a belt is not what I would call training in todays sense.

So looking for a trainer who uses just these methods alone will get you into trouble, which is why you want to look for someone (like K9 Pro) who uses correction or reward based on the individual situation.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Jumabaar I will also add- times change. What people were doing 16 years ago (or longer) in other industries has been upgraded and new easier/better methods have been found. Why not the same in dog training??

Sure. So can you name me a modern method that guarantees off-leash reliability (around distractions) for any breed and temperament in 10 weeks? Can you name me a method that will take your dog as a complete novice and trained him to pass a novice obedience exam in ten weeks, regardless of how experienced the handler is or isn't? Can you name me a method that has a demonstrated success rate of doing this with over 80% of clients in a class setting over a an extended period of time? Let's say ten years of demonstrated success?

Let me say it again, I am perfectly fine with you choosing any method of training you wish. A person must first and foremost be comfortable and confident in the method they choose. The Koehler method is not for everyone and that's fine. But when you say there are better methods, the above is my own personal criteria for better. It may not be yours (and again, that's fine) but that's what i am looking for when someone says better.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by lovemydogsideways But using a method such snarling OUT! to make a puppy be quiet, or tying a string to a puppy so he can't get away when you drag him to you and smack him with a belt is not what I would call training in todays sense.

That's fine. Thank you for providing the quote in context. I don't train guard dogs so I do not know the rationale behind it. I feel sure that if Koehler was alive today he would simply put a bark collar on the dog - but that probably isn't to many people's liking either. I also know that many thousands of dogs in this country are abandoned and put to sleep for far less reasons than simply barking. So if you can stop the barking using other methods that fine.

[lovemesideways]

Posted by Jumabaar I will also add- times change. What people were doing 16 years ago (or longer) in other industries has been upgraded and new easier/better methods have been found. Why not the same in dog training??

Sure. So can you name me a modern method that guarantees off-leash reliability (around distractions) for any breed and temperament in 10 weeks? Can you name me a method that will take your dog as a complete novice and trained him to pass a novice obedience exam in ten weeks, regardless of how experienced the handler is or isn't? Can you name me a method that has a demonstrated success rate of doing this with over 80% of clients in a class setting over a an extended period of time? Let's say ten years of demonstrated success?

Let me say it again, I am perfectly fine with you choosing any method of training you wish. A person must first and foremost be comfortable and confident in the method they choose. The Koehler method is not for everyone and that's fine. But when you say there are better methods, the above is my own personal criteria for better. It may not be yours (and again, that's fine) but that's what i am looking for when someone says better.

I really feel like you're missing the big picture here. You want a dog who will do all these things, do you care how he does them? Do you care if your dog can heel perfectly, even though he is cowering and working with no enthusiasm or drive. Or a dog that is reliable off leash by your programs standards, but flinches when you recall it because its expecting a correction?

Or would you like a dog who heels with total and full focus on you, no fear, no boredom. Just a incredibly focus on you and giving it 110%. A dog who won't even bother to leave you once you let it off leash because nothing in the world is of any interest at all except you, you are the centre of that dogs universe and nothing else matters. And achieve this without have to beat it into you dog?

I have met dogs like that. And it is a serious Joy to watch them work and train.

You shouldn't be looking for the quickest easiest way to train a dog, you should be looking for the most reliable in the long run. A dog grows up, they become hardened to correction over time. Some get filled with testosterone and turn on their handler who is constantly hurting them. Others can't handle the corrections and turn into a quivering nervous wreck who snap at the worst moment, mauling a child and being put to sleep. And maybe these are only the "20%" who don't pass your program, but out of 100 dogs, thats still 20 who don't pass. 20 dogs who are not made to work with a program like Koehlers.

I myself would much rather spend the time and energy on a program with a 100% success rate for every dog and committed handler.

You seem like you're interested in dog training, then don't make the mistake of sticking to just one method! Open your mind a bit!

Have a read of these,

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=55

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=79

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=54

Don't just blatantly disagree with people have have real experience training using different methods, cause they don't work by your standard. Its been how many years since Koehler was considered the top trainer around right? So what improvements have been made to training in that time. And I'm not talking about the mentality that dogs are furry people are correcting them is cruel, cause I don't agree with that. I mean scientifically, have you actualy looked?

There is so much out there, to hold onto something like this is just so limiting. I honestly feel sorry for your dog if this is all you want to do. Just so what, you can feel cool that you have a 10 week old puppy who comes off leash past distractions?

Don't buy peace at too high a price.

Edited December 11, 2011 by lovemesideways

[lovemesideways]

Posted by lovemydogsideways But using a method such snarling OUT! to make a puppy be quiet, or tying a string to a puppy so he can't get away when you drag him to you and smack him with a belt is not what I would call training in todays sense.

That's fine. Thank you for providing the quote in context. I don't train guard dogs so I do not know the rationale behind it. I feel sure that if Koehler was alive today he would simply put a bark collar on the dog - but that probably isn't to many people's liking either. I also know that many thousands of dogs in this country are abandoned and put to sleep for far less reasons than simply barking. So if you can stop the barking using other methods that fine.

SO, Are you saying you would put a bark collar on a 8 week old puppy?

[itsadogslife]

Posted by lovemesideways

SO, Are you saying you would put a bark collar on a 8 week old puppy?

No. But I would not hesitate to give an 'out' correction.

[Kavik]

I want my dog to work for me happily and keenly and to have FUN training him (that is after all why we have them if they are not strictly working dogs - to have fun!). You can have fun training your dog and have him reliable too. Using Koehler would not work in my chosen sport anyway - you can not ever get the best out of a dog for agility using physical corrections. You would not get the speed, or the focus, drive and desire (plus it is not allowed). We have progressed so far from the mentality that you have to MAKE the dog obey using physical methods.

Here is someone who does not use corrections - and whose puppy has an impressive recall off of distractions

And here is a world wide well respected trainer whose OB and SchH training is admired - and he certainly does not use Koehler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Gx8ZD7tDc&feature=related

[itsadogslife]

Posted by lovemesideways I really feel like you're missing the big picture here. You want a dog who will do all these things, do you care how he does them? Do you care if your dog can heel perfectly, even though he is cowering and working with no enthusiasm or drive. Or a dog that is reliable off leash by your programs standards, but flinches when you recall it because its expecting a correction?

If you have trained previous dogs using the Koehler Method as instructed from the book (without revision or modification) and got these kinds of result, then it is a very good thing that you train with different methods now. Personally, none of the things you imply here and elsewhere are indicative of how my dog behaved to command. Except for the perfect heeling and reliable recall that is.

A dog who won't even bother to leave you once you let it off leash because nothing in the world is of any interest at all except you, you are the centre of that dogs universe and nothing else matters. And achieve this without have to beat it into you dog?

Do you realise how offensive it is to imply that someone whom you have never met 'beats' their dog? How about a dog that heels off-lead and remains attentive whilst at the same time takes in the surroundings?

Attentivenss to the handler in Koehler’s method is the same kind of attentiveness that a person has when driving a car. Personally, driving the car is the last thing I am thinking of when driving, yet I am remain attentive, all the while I can carry on a conversation with the person next to me, admire the scenery, look out for a house I am looking for etc. A trained behavior as Koehler sees it, becomes automatic, unconscious, like driving a car. This free up the mind to take in the scenery and surroundings without losing attentiveness. I certainly would not want my dog to have no other interest in the world other than me. Being attentive to me does not mean sole focus on me to the exclusion of everything else.

And maybe these are only the "20%" who don't pass your program, but out of 100 dogs, thats still 20 who don't pass. 20 dogs who are not made to work with a program like Koehlers.

I myself would much rather spend the time and energy on a program with a 100% success rate for every dog and committed handler.

Yet if I were to show you evidence that your methods did not meet with 100% success rate you would no doubt complain that the handler was not committed, did not do the work, did not follow the instructions etc. Yet Koehler failure to achieve 100% success rate is attributed by you to all manner faults of the method, such as “can’t handle corrections and turn into quivering nervous wreck who snap at the worst moment, mauling a child and being put to sleep”. Can you rachet up the emotional blackmail anymore?

You seem like you're interested in dog training, then don't make the mistake of sticking to just one method! Open your mind a bit!

Have a read of these,

Again, you have never met me, yet seem awfully free with your unfounded assumptions. Should I tell you that I have attended a workshop with Steve Courtney up in Sydney? Perhaps not, it might spoil your fantasies.

So what improvements have been made to training in that time.

I don’t know. I ask, and you reply with nothing but emotional blackmail.

I mean scientifically, have you actualy looked?

You mean, am I well read in the science of behaviorism? The science founded by B.F. Skinner? The same science that has been discarded for over thirty years in the human sciences as being inadequate to explain behavior? The same science that treats the mind as irrelevant in explaining behavior? The science of Classical Conditioning? The science of Learning Theory? The science of Operant Conditioning?

I honestly feel sorry for your dog if this is all you want to do.

More patronizing insults? Can you provide an answer to the question that I reasonably asked or are you just going to continue with this emotional blackmail?

Just so what, you can feel cool that you have a 10 week old puppy who comes off leash past distractions?

Yet more patronizing insults based on unfounded assumptions of a person and his dog that you have never met.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by kavik I want my dog to work for me happily and keenly

That is excellent. Why do you assume that my dog doesn't? Have you used the Koehler method?

And here is a world wide well respected trainer whose OB and SchH training is admired - and he certainly does not use Koehler

A couple of things, I am not arguing that only the Koehler Method can get reliable results. I am not arguing against your preferred methods of training or anyone else's for that matter. I am not interested in arguing which or whose methods are better. Better is a relative term. Choose the method that is best for you. My only interest is in defending my own chosen method against certain regular and persistent misconceptions.

And here is a world wide well respected trainer whose OB and SchH training is admired - and he certainly does not use Koehler

I have Micheal Ellis's latest video on teaching the heel. Micheal Ellis is a brilliant trainer. His dogs are brilliantly trained and performed dogs. Are they better than Koehler methods? Well guess what, no they are not. Better is a relative term, what is better for you, depends on what behaviors you want to train in your dog. I don't use Micheal Ellis's method of training in drive, because I am not interested in training those behaviours (such as seen on the video). If on the other hand you are, then obviously you ought to seek out those methods rather than Koehler's.

[huski]

itsadogslife do you have any video you can show us of your dogs or other dogs working using Koehler methods that you think are good and displays the benefits of the method?

Genuinely interested as I haven't really seen any dogs trained exclusively with Koehler methods.

[Kavik]

I'm impressed with Michael Ellis's tugging DVD and would be very pleased if my dog worked like that (though Ivan Balabanov is the one in vid I posted).

Certainly horses for courses and all that, and if your happy with the results that is fine, it certainly does depend on what your aim is for your dog - some methods are better for some things and also suit some people better.

[wuffles]

.

Edited December 11, 2011 by wuffles

[itsadogslife]

itsadogslife do you have any video you can show us of your dogs or other dogs working using Koehler methods that you think are good and displays the benefits of the method?

Genuinely interested as I haven't really seen any dogs trained exclusively with Koehler methods.

I don't have any video's of my dog, but I will see if I can find some of Koehler trained competing. They are hard to find, every video I have seen on Koehler trained dogs on You Tube for instance, is an example of someone not using Koehler lol.

[itsadogslife]

Huski, here is a video of a Koehler trained dog in training for novice

ask away...