Koehler Training In Sydney?

[itsadogslife]

[quote name='Kavik'

I stated in an above post that I have no problem with methods that use corrections as well as rewards, but Koehler is pretty heavy handed in his use of corrections, including in teaching new exercises.

It always makes me wonder why people say that. For sure in the problem section, his methods for fixing problem behaviours are extreme. But he recommends that one should take the dog through the 13 week course before any of those issues are addressed. Koehler knows full well that most of the problems people encounter will have resolved themselves long before they ever get to that section. And of course, he only recommends such drastic action if the choice is either put the dog down or fix the problem.

On the other hand, I find Koehler to be extremely fair in his teaching methods, insisting that the dog be taught each new command though many repetitions before any correction is given. If followed correctly, the ratio of reward/correction is about 100 to 1 in favour of reward for every exercise taught.

[Kavik]

Well I have the book right here (decided I have to read it to see what all the fuss is about ;) ), he teaches heeling through leash corrections on a long line when the dog forges at all, no voice all silent. Also the way he writes it is like a battle between you and the dog. Sounds like plenty of corrections to me!

[ursus]

She would run after a jogger or a cyclist and bite their hands. She would jump at cars passing by.

I am wondering how she was able to do this ? Did you let her free-run because she was such a pain to walk on lead?

Very sad.

Only let her off the lead occasionally and only in the dog park. She was trying to jump at cars, obviously I wouldn't let her do it.

[persephone]

Ah..OK.

thankyou.

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Kavik he teaches heeling through leash corrections on a long line when the dog forges at all, no voice all silent.

A few of things:

1: The first week of foundation on the line long does not teach heel.

2: There are no leash corrections in the first week.

3: The first three days of the first week require the handler to put a 15’ line on the dog and walk from point A to point B without stopping and without paying any attention to the dog, you then take a short break and walk from B to C, take a break and then walk from C to D and so forth. If the dog forges ahead, even if it pulls you the whole way, you do not do anything other than keep walking until you reach your designated point B. If it lags you ignore it and keep walking. Basically you ignore the dog completely. You do this for 20mins twice a day for three days. There are no about turns in the first three days.

On the fourth day, if the dog forges you DO NOT GIVE A LEASH CORRECTION, you simply turn around and go the other way. You may think this is just semantics but it is not. After three days of work on the 15’ line the dog knows full well how long the line is. The only reason the dog gets caught on the leash is because he has failed to pay attention to the handler. If a dog was tied to a tree and then ran out to the end of the line and got caught would you say the tree had corrected him? The only important thing that is going on here is from the dog’s point of view, not yours or the handler. The dog no more blames the human than he would if he was tied to a tree. Koehler allows the dog to experience the consequences of his own actions through experience. The same way that all living animals learn, through experience.

The long line works as reinforcement. And no, the dog is not reinforced by being caught out by the line. Rather the behaviour that is being taught here (which is specifically not heeling) is reinforced every time the dog avoids being caught by the line. And more importantly the behaviour is self-reinforcing – that is why Koehler specifically instructs the handler not to speak or even look at the dog during the first week. For if the behaviour is to become self-reinforcing the dog must work it out himself. Which if you have trained your dog using this method, you know happens very quickly.

What is being taught here is not reinforcement, but rather self-reinforcement. Something which in my humble opinion is far more motivating to a dog than anything we have to give him, whether it be praise, treats or toys. The first week of training is called the Foundation – there is a reason for that.

Also the way he writes it is like a battle between you and the dog. Sounds like plenty of corrections to me!

I do not mean to give offense here, but the only way to truly understand the method is to train a dog using it. Anyone who has used the method (as written in the book) knows full well that the reward/ correction ratio is, as I said, about 100 to 1 in favour of reward.

Edited December 10, 2011 by itsadogslife

[Bully]

Get hold of the book When Pigs Fly - Training Success With Impossible Dogs by Jane Killion

Jane uses clicker training and has great success with her Bull Terriers in both obedience and agility

Pele, my 6.5 yo Bull Terrier is trialling towards a CDX obedience title. IMO positive training gets better results with a Bull Terrier.

[Kippy]

I am not exclusively blaming coaches and the behaviorist working with her, as the dog probably had problems all along. My problem is that - in my opinion - not all possible methods were used with her. From what I have read e-collar could solve some of the problems. I am not going to the opposite extreme and be nasty to my dog (which I adore), I just want to find a coach who uses all modalities of training. I am not aiming at winning obedience competitions with my Bull Terrier, I want her to reliably perform important commands, so that I can take her for a walk and not be paranoid all the time that she will scare a child or chase a cat across a busy road.

I understand what you mean, like who cares if a trainer sleeps well because they didn't have to use an Ecollar upholding their personal protocol whilst you cry yourself to sleep over you poor dog that was PTS without given every chance of rehabilitation.

[OSoSwift]

I have Koelers books and have trained using his methods.

I now clicker train and will only clicker train as I get a much more reliable result. Having said that I am not a clicker purist and will issue a correction if required in general every day life but as for training obedience I use a clicker and positive reinforcement and train smarter if things are not working. I go away think about it and figure how to get what I want happening.

I have trained Dobermanns with both nethods and my Dogs responded much better to clicker than Koeler. One thing that really sealed it for me was training dumbell and gloves. Koeler shut my dog down, Clicker got her her CDX.

[Kavik]

Posted by Kavik he teaches heeling through leash corrections on a long line when the dog forges at all, no voice all silent.

A few of things:

1: The first week of foundation on the line long does not teach heel.

2: There are no leash corrections in the first week.

3: The first three days of the first week require the handler to put a 15’ line on the dog and walk from point A to point B without stopping and without paying any attention to the dog, you then take a short break and walk from B to C, take a break and then walk from C to D and so forth. If the dog forges ahead, even if it pulls you the whole way, you do not do anything other than keep walking until you reach your designated point B. If it lags you ignore it and keep walking. Basically you ignore the dog completely. You do this for 20mins twice a day for three days. There are no about turns in the first three days.

On the fourth day, if the dog forges you DO NOT GIVE A LEASH CORRECTION, you simply turn around and go the other way. You may think this is just semantics but it is not. After three days of work on the 15’ line the dog knows full well how long the line is. The only reason the dog gets caught on the leash is because he has failed to pay attention to the handler. If a dog was tied to a tree and then ran out to the end of the line and got caught would you say the tree had corrected him? The only important thing that is going on here is from the dog’s point of view, not yours or the handler. The dog no more blames the human than he would if he was tied to a tree. Koehler allows the dog to experience the consequences of his own actions through experience. The same way that all living animals learn, through experience.

The long line works as reinforcement. And no, the dog is not reinforced by being caught out by the line. Rather the behaviour that is being taught here (which is specifically not heeling) is reinforced every time the dog avoids being caught by the line. And more importantly the behaviour is self-reinforcing – that is why Koehler specifically instructs the handler not to speak or even look at the dog during the first week. For if the behaviour is to become self-reinforcing the dog must work it out himself. Which if you have trained your dog using this method, you know happens very quickly.

What is being taught here is not reinforcement, but rather self-reinforcement. Something which in my humble opinion is far more motivating to a dog than anything we have to give him, whether it be praise, treats or toys. The first week of training is called the Foundation – there is a reason for that.

Also the way he writes it is like a battle between you and the dog. Sounds like plenty of corrections to me!

I do not mean to give offense here, but the only way to truly understand the method is to train a dog using it. Anyone who has used the method (as written in the book) knows full well that the reward/ correction ratio is, as I said, about 100 to 1 in favour of reward.

I didn't see any rewards in what you wrote.

No need for me to try the method since I can use methods which use games and engagement with the handler and controlling the dog's access to reinforcement.

Interestingly you can train this bit Koehler allows the dog to experience the consequences of his own actions through experience.by using positive methods which do not include using the leash There is a very well known positive trainer who does exactly this - the dog learns through its choices - even her games have choice in the title ;)

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Kavik I didn't see any rewards in what you wrote.

That's because the behaviour being trained is self-rewarding. Dogs chase cats because the behavior is self-reinforcing - they seldom catch the cat, meaning they seldom achieve the external reward, yet they persist in the behaviour because the behaviour is self rewarding. I might add that the behavior being reinforced (in other words, rewarded) is quite obvious should you watch the process.

[Kavik]

Obviously the behaviour being rewarded is staying within the boundaries of the long line. Being rewarded in this case being not hitting the end of the long line.

[itsadogslife]

Obviously the behaviour being rewarded is staying within the boundaries of the long line.

No, it isn't.

[Kavik]

Ok it is paying attention to the handler and where the handler is, but there are ways to do that which don't involve the leash

[itsadogslife]

Ok it is paying attention to the handler and where the handler is, but there are ways to do that which don't involve the leash

True.

[Sue]

Giving a bully an occasional or more than occasional hiding has no benefit at all. People say they are tough and do not feel pain or fear, but they are in fact extremely sensitive to abuse. Food and positive rewards do far more good with bullies than punishment.

Getting the FIRST six months right with a bully is far more important than any other time in its life. They do need a lot of socialisation with other animals when young and that should be in the form of controlled play. If the dog is too rough then take it away until it calms down. Teach the puppy to leave on command and to recall. Food is your friend here. No point beating and being aggressive to the puppy when it is already over excited or "aggressive".

[Kavik]

My OH had a bully when we first met. She was very good at passive resistance

[ursus]

Giving a bully an occasional or more than occasional hiding has no benefit at all.

Who suggested giving a dog a hiding?

[Jumabaar]

On reading that explanation I have to wonder if it was written for a certain disposition of dogs. I can see the kelpies 'getting' the idea of the length of the lead. I can also see my Lapphund lying down and refusing to walk and me dragging her round while she has a nice nap. From what I have met of my

I think I will stick with my own method. itsadogslife you mentioned dogs chasing cats- well that is pretty much my method. I pretend I am a cat and the dog never knows when I am going to take off. As puppies they get to 'catch me' and get a big reward of food and cuddles. I then make it a bigger/longer harder game and yup the do self reward which is why I have an 8mth old kelpie pup that is always watching (and I have just made sure to position her on my left side) incase I take of like a cat/rabbit and she gets to hunt me down lol. She started heeling because that was the easiest position to keep track of me.

I also found this method showed results within a day or two- I personally wouldn't have the patience to walk around ignoring my dog for a week for 20minutes a day when a 5minute session of pretending I am a rabbit is better for my fitness.

That is not to say she doesn't have corrections, but I have to say that atm I am finding it hard pressed to find her doing anything wrong in her training for me to correct. Generally any stuff ups are when I am in the wrong. When I keep the training to her level and don't push she has a pretty high hit rate because she wants the food damn it!!

My older dog with behavioural problems is not off lead unless he is working, and even then I usually still have him on a long line. He has had corrections in his training and I have to say I always gave him warning of when a correction was coming, I didn't expect him to suddenly understand what I did/did not want him to do. Which is actually the most interesting thing I find about the Koehler method that you described. By giving a verbal warning my dog was able to understand from the second time that the behaviour he was displaying was going to earn him a correction and he could make the choice to display a different behaviour. Just letting you know he wears a prong collar when I take him for walks, although I also use a martingale which now has the same effect as the prong because his warning marker causes him to cease his behaviour. So once again my correction based method actually has very few corrections in it.

Why did I write all that? I believe in positive based training and have used it on my pup. BUT when the time comes for it I use corrections because like you positive training alone didn't work for my eldest dog. He is now as happy as larry because he knows and understands the rules of walking with me. And he is now learning the rules of flyball- yup he should be competing this year even with all his hang ups!!

I will go with what everyone else has said and tell you to contact k9Pro!!

[Red Fox]

Kelpie-i, it wasn't the aggression in its pure sense. Let me give you an example. She would run after a jogger or a cyclist and bite their hands. She would jump at cars passing by. She could not normally play with other dogs: the intensity was the same with small poodles as it was with staffies or German Sheppards. She was pulling on the leash (including the Gentle Leader), so that after every walk my left shoulder was hrobbing. She was a rather large American Bulldog and could cause considerable damage. The last straw was her going after a person carrying a small poodle, biting him on the hand. Thankfully, the person turned out to be a dog coach (and his wife a dog behaviorist) and was very understanding. After this episode we eventually decided to put her down, which was very traumatic. Her behavior was attributed to anxiety.

I am not exclusively blaming coaches and the behaviorist working with her, as the dog probably had problems all along. My problem is that - in my opinion - not all possible methods were used with her. From what I have read e-collar could solve some of the problems. I am not going to the opposite extreme and be nasty to my dog (which I adore), I just want to find a coach who uses all modalities of training. I am not aiming at winning obedience competitions with my Bull Terrier, I want her to reliably perform important commands, so that I can take her for a walk and not be paranoid all the time that she will scare a child or chase a cat across a busy road.

And who's choice was that? Could you not have taken the dog to see someone else?

Chasing and biting is prey drive - normal. Pulling on leash (unless the dog has been taught otherwise) is also normal. Playing rough with other dogs is normal too for some dogs and pretty easily fixed - you just don't allow it. I'm not sure which behaviourist you saw but they sound pretty damn useless to me.

[Sue]

Who suggested giving a dog a hiding?

You did, but you don't seem to think giving a dog an occasional hiding is abuse. Not sure about Australia but giving your kid a hiding in New Zealand will see you before the courts, and rightfully so.