2 Jack Russell Littermates Of 7 Years Old

[Sylvie]

Yesterday I was reading the threads about adopting littermates. That was very interesting, and a bit worrying too as 3 months ago we adopted 2 Jack Russell brothers (same litter) of 7 years old. The family who had them could not keep them anymore as they were traveling a lot and the dogs were staying in kennels for up to a month every 2 or 3 months.

They are very well behaved and pretty obedient. I even got them to walk on the leash without pulling or reacting (too much) to other passing dogs (if they don’t come too close!). We have the occasional growl when they lick each other face (not sure if we should stop that, but we are trying).

One (Apollo) is very submissive and every time we get him on our lap for a cuddle, the other one (Ares) gets tense, turns his back to him and as soon as we release Apollo rushes to sniff him and sometimes growls at him. It gets very hard to get Apollo come back for any more cuddles, he goes straight to his bed and do not want to move. That looks pretty sad. Ares is so jealous, he even growls at his own reflection in the window (like this one is far too cute to be so close!), and it is even worse if we are patting him: who is this fluffy dog getting pat by My owners. Still not sure how to sort that out.

Well, yesterday, after reading about all the problems of having littermates together, my husband called me to ask if I saw the dogs at lunch time and if they were all right! He found them covered in blood and thought they might have had a fight. Here we are. I don’t think it their first, but that is the first time we’ve had blood. It was not much, just a few scratches on Ares nose, but it is a bit scary.

A few weeks ago, Ares got bitten by paralysis ticks and went to the clinic for a day and half (he is fine now). Apollo has been very good before we went to the clinic, while we were monitoring the poor Ares. But I think he enjoyed the time he had without Ares around and looked a completely different dog. Since then he is coming for a pat when we call him and seems a lot more confident. Not sure Ares likes that.

I have been reading about never leaving 2 Jack Russell together without supervision but we were thinking that if they survived 7 years together they should be all right. Now I am a bit worried.

I am not sure we are doing the right thing by them. We keep feeding Ares first, and he is first to have a pat and all, but I think he is very unsecured. Apollo is also quiet bigger and stronger than Ares, so Ares might not win the fight.

Should we work them separately from time to time? When playing or learning new tricks, I manage to get one sitting while the other one is working/playing. No for too long though. Or I get one inside while outside with the other and switch after a while. There really are not much of a problem while we are with them. But they seem to fight a bit when alone in the garden. Our neighbour told me they were, but when we are home it is really just a growl and a bark and it’s finish within 2 seconds.

Well, I probably worry too much, as my husband keep saying. But I am a first time dog owner when he has had dogs most of his life, although never 2 littermates Jack Russell.

Will try and go to dog obedience next year, both for them and for myself.

Thanks for reading.

[Aziah]

Definitely spend time with them as individuals and I'd be inclined to seperate them when you aren't at home given they've already drawn blood...better that than come home to a badly injured or dead dog.

[Pollywaffle]

I'm afraid I can't offer any valuable advice, but I do know that a DOLer's curse seems to be caring almost too much about our dogs...I guess when so many others don't we almost over-compensate. Hopefully, yours is just new owner anxiety...but others on here are very experienced in knowing how dogs 'operate'...and will advise you well, I'm sure.

[Greytmate]

I would look at getting help for them. Training in obedience is always good, but you have a problem which needs to be looked at more closely, so I would get a good private trainer or behaviourist in to have a look. I would get Ares checked out by the vet first.

This page NILIF is good for helping pushy or anxious dogs, but it seems Ares behaviour has gone a bit beyond pushy.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Greytmate

[Sylvie]

Thanks Aziah, Pollywaffle and Greytmate for you response.

I would get Ares checked out by the vet first.

Greytmate, why do you suggest to have Ares check by a vet first? What should we check him for? In relation with the tick paralysis? He still seems to be a bit slower than he was before but it was only 3 weeks ago. That could explain him being a bit "moody"!

Thanks again

Sylvie.

[Greytmate]

Thanks Aziah, Pollywaffle and Greytmate for you response.

I would get Ares checked out by the vet first.

Greytmate, why do you suggest to have Ares check by a vet first? What should we check him for? In relation with the tick paralysis? He still seems to be a bit slower than he was before but it was only 3 weeks ago. That could explain him being a bit "moody"!

Thanks again

Sylvie.

The vet would check for things like sore spots, dental problems or limited motion in limbs or anything that may indicate the dog is in pain. Pain will make a dog much less tolerant than it will normally be. I have heard of tick bites making dogs more anxious, but not more aggressive. If it's still affecting him physically, he may be feeling unwell.

In many cases a vet will find nothing physical wrong. But it's not a good idea to start behavioural work unless you have checked that there isn't an obvious physical problem that needs fixing first.

[Souff]

They might be litter mates but they don't have to be friends all the time.

Treat the dogs as individuals and take one out by themselves sometimes and leave the other dog at home with another human.

Give them some space from each other now and then.

Souff has very little tolerance for situations where humans insist that two dogs must remain together always.

This would not happen in a natural situation, unless the animals themselves dictated it for the purposes of co-dependency and survival, and this would be rare in terriers as they are usually very individual and self possessed characters.

I agree with the idea of getting the vet to take a look too.

Both terriers need to be fighting fit if you are going to leave them together when you go out.

Souff

[dancinbcs]

One (Apollo) is very submissive and every time we get him on our lap for a cuddle, the other one (Ares) gets tense, turns his back to him and as soon as we release Apollo rushes to sniff him and sometimes growls at him. It gets very hard to get Apollo come back for any more cuddles, he goes straight to his bed and do not want to move.

Apollo has been very good before we went to the clinic, while we were monitoring the poor Ares. But I think he enjoyed the time he had without Ares around and looked a completely different dog. Since then he is coming for a pat when we call him and seems a lot more confident. Not sure Ares likes that.

This is why I never recommend anyone getting litter mates. One always ends up very submissive to the other and never gets a chance to develop their full potential.

These two have survived 7 years but I would be separating them and giving them individual attention when you are around so there is no chance for one to bully the other.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Def. keep them separate when you are not around. Any fight that ends up with serious injuries is dangerous in that it may progress. Jack Russells do not give up very easily - they will attack and kill - terriers are extremely tenacious and JRTs are just about the best example of that. This sounds like a very risky situation as one is bigger than the other.

My boss had 2 JRT littermates and their fights were dreadful, sometimes they were great friends, other times they had to be forcibly separated. They were with people who were around most of the time but they also had dog runs.

I'd recommend getting a couple of dog runs and crates for night time, that way you can supervise any time together.

If you are unable to do that then you might consider trying to rehome one of them.

Contact DOL Member JRT Rescue or Google their website, you can advertise your dog on their and are targetting the right owners most likely.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

You are having a bit of a baptism by fire - I wouldn't normally recommend a JRT for a first time dog owner and you have two ...

Def. keep them separate when you are not around. Any fight that ends up with serious injuries is dangerous in that it may progress. Jack Russells do not give up very easily - they will attack and kill - terriers are extremely tenacious and JRTs are just about the best example of that. (Have you ever watched a video of the JRT's doing what they are bred for? (Ratting) This sounds like a very risky situation as one is bigger than the other.

My boss had 2 JRT littermates and their fights were dreadful, sometimes they were great friends, other times they had to be forcibly separated. They were with people who were around most of the time but they also had dog runs.

I'd recommend getting a couple of dog runs and crates for night time, that way you can supervise any time together.

If you are unable to do that then you might consider trying to rehome one of them.

Contact DOL Member JRT Rescue or Google their website, you can advertise your dog on their and are targetting the right owners most likely.

Edited December 8, 2011 by dogmad

[Sylvie]

Thank you all for your response. I'm impress by the activity on this forum.

I tried to separate them this morning, one inside downstairs alone and the other outside. They did not like it one bit, each probably thinking the other one had the best part of the deal! They were growling slightly (not the big growl) through the door. When I opened the door the one inside rushed outside with a quick growl, then sniff and lick, lick. I'm not sure that's going to work. It will probably be better to crate them but 4-5 hours in a raw every day is a lot.

Well to be quiet honest, I don't think they are too bad actually, never heard or saw a fight that lasted more the 1 or 2 seconds. The last one, I know a little bit of blood was drawn, but it was really not much and it was probably more impressive because they licked each other and spray it all over them. But we certainely want to keep an eye on them. My main worry is to make sure that we were not doing anything that could get them worse, and see if we could do anything to improve it.

I have heard of tick bites making dogs more anxious, but not more aggressive. If it's still affecting him physically, he may be feeling unwell.

I think Ares is still a bit affected by his tick paralysis. When I pick him up at the clinic, they gave me a note saying that

Ares will be less tolerant to heat, exercise and stress for approximatively 6 weeks

and to avoid stairs, excitement, off leash exercise and jumping/runnning for the duration. So I guess we will try to keep them calm until next year and see how they go after.

You are having a bit of a baptism by fire

I know! But I am learning a lot and they are so funny and cute. I read a lot about Jack Russell before they arrived, never watched the video though. I saw, or heard I should say, what they did to 2 blue tongues in our garden, it's not pretty.

I'd recommend getting a couple of dog runs and crates for night time, that way you can supervise any time together.

What are dog runs? We already have crates for the night.

If you are unable to do that then you might consider trying to rehome one of them.

I really hope we are not going to have to go that way

Thanks again for all your advises.

Sylvie

PS: Sorry for my english, it is not my mother's tongue.

[ChristineX]

Hi Sylvie,

you would need to teach them to be on their own. How about starting with a baby gate with one on each side to start with? And take them for walks one at a time, or if your partner is willing, each of you goes round the park in a different direction with them. Cold turkey is a hard way to teach them to be okay on their own. Its a good idea though, as it diminishes stress if something were to happen to one of them.

Did anyone suggest using NILIF? And if one pushes in to block you patting the other, say "wait your turn" and go back to patting the original one. You might need to do a fair bit of blocking etc to start with, but they can learn to tone down their resource guarding.

[Sylvie]

Hi Sylvie,

you would need to teach them to be on their own. How about starting with a baby gate with one on each side to start with? And take them for walks one at a time, or if your partner is willing, each of you goes round the park in a different direction with them. Cold turkey is a hard way to teach them to be okay on their own. Its a good idea though, as it diminishes stress if something were to happen to one of them.

Did anyone suggest using NILIF? And if one pushes in to block you patting the other, say "wait your turn" and go back to patting the original one. You might need to do a fair bit of blocking etc to start with, but they can learn to tone down their resource guarding.

Thanks ChristineX,

We will definitely teach them to be on their own. Apollo did cope very well when his brother was sick and away. We put him outside while we were monitoring Ares and he did not budge, like if he knew something was wrong. But if they know the other one is alone just on the other side it is a bit more difficult.

When we first got them, I wanted to try and walk or train them separately. I put Apollo in his kennel with the gate and called Ares away. Poor Apollo went mad, jumping and lunging in his crate. Not a good idea. But now I can put one inside, work with the other one outside without a problem. They don't really push in to block us patting the other. It is when we finished with Apollo mainly, Ares rushes to check on him and make sure he knows that he has been watched, and get a lick! Sometime time he growls at him which sends Apollo straight to his bed. That's what I would like to stop.

Yes I have been suggested using NILIF. I read the page and we do pretty much every thing in it except we have to work a bit harder not to pat Ares when he put his little nose next to us. I have started already and he goes to his bed or lays down at our feet fairly quickly without much fuss. And I get them sited before any pat. Seems good to me.

They were so well behaved when we got them. When we got them inside the house for the first time they looked at us to know where they could go. They used to be allowed only on a rug next to the door in their previous home. Every time they went a bit further in the house, they look at us: "Is that Ok here?". They were so cute. They did not even move from their bed when we were cooking! Now they are a bit more "alive" but still pretty obedient when we ask them to go away.

Thanks again to every one with the good advises.

Sylvie

[sallyandtex]

Well I wish you good luck!

I think with some training and separation you might have a happy home :D

Definitely get some training help. Do a google search here's a simple one

http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm

We perservered with puppy siblings for 3 months, but even with a private trainer they wouldn't listen to us, and since one was quite larger and the fights were getting serious, we had to rehome one

They thrived after that, and we have kept in contact with the adoptee.

Since yours are 7 years old, they might stress a bit if you separate them. And they are WAY more mature than 3-6 month old pups!

I wish i had done the research before we got 2...but it turned out Ok in the end, and the guilt was unneccessary.

[Muttaburra]

I agree you may be on quite a learning curve, and while keeping 2 male JrTs together is not impossible, it is generally not recommended.

Great advice given here and certainly Jill from jrtrescue might have some advice too.

In the meantime you might consider keeping them separate when you are not around.

Also do not allow either of them into the kitchen or food preparation area - while dogs are settling in to new homes they can display "resource guarding" due to the insecurity of being rehomed. This "resource guarding" can also apply to the humans in the household, bones or toys lying around, a favourite chair or couch and so on.

Jack Russells love a game though, so regular play times with balls, tugs or toys is a great way to help them bond with you and settle down. When the games are over, put all toys and balls away for next time (this shows them that you are in control)

During the playtime you can extend their training as well by training them to drop the ball and sit before the ball is thrown, etc. etc.

[Sylvie]

Everybody seem to agree that they should be kept separate when we are not around, and last week I seemed to find new crusts or scratches on any of them every day, which probably means that they are having some kind of scuffles every day.

So I've started to separate them during the day and put them in their crates at night as from Monday. I walk them together in the morning and I walked them separately yesterday afternoon, while the other was staying with my husband. The one left behind was a bit distressed at first (winging and crying a bit), but they seemed to enjoy their walk on their own. I will keep doing it every then and then. I am going to get fit soon!

Jack Russells love a game though, so regular play times with balls, tugs or toys is a great way to help them bond with you and settle down. When the games are over, put all toys and balls away for next time (this shows them that you are in control)

During the playtime you can extend their training as well by training them to drop the ball and sit before the ball is thrown, etc. etc.

That the funny thing, where Ares does not mind a bit of a game, chasing tennis balls (we stopped the tug-o-war game long ago because of his growling issues), Apollo is not interested at all. He better run away from tennis balls. Did not find any game for him yet and they don’t really have toys. They seem to have fun when I get them running around the yard jumping over bars that I install in a narrow passage, jumping on and off the outdoor chairs. Any idea of what kind of game I could try? They seem only interested in food or chasing alive animals (and killing if they can catch; blue tongues)!

I would like to know what it means when Apollo licks Ares’face, and Ares seems to like it but after a little while he starts growling slightly, then shows the teeth and growls a bit louder but without moving away or forward. Surely if it was aggressive Apollo would stop, but he keeps licking until we stop them or they get disturb. Is that something we should be concerned about and try and stop it at the first growling sound? Or is it a normal behaviour?

Thanks again, I am learning every day.

Sylvie

[Sylvie]

Everybody seem to agree that they should be kept separate when we are not around, and last week I seemed to find new crusts or scratches on any of them every day, which probably means that they are having some kind of scuffles every day.

So I've started to separate them during the day and put them in their crates at night as from Monday. I walk them together in the morning and I walked them separately yesterday afternoon, while the other was staying with my husband. The one left behind was a bit distressed at first (winging and crying a bit), but they seemed to enjoy their walk on their own. I will keep doing it every then and then. I am going to get fit soon!

Did not go that well yesterday. Ares who was inside, in rumpus room downstairs while Apollo was outside, got very distressed. When I came back at lunch time, they were both barking and very agitated. Ares had pooped and peed everywhere. He even had a bit of vomit. As soon as I sent him outside he started to growl at Apollo and while I was cleaning his mess they had a bit of a brawl but with no damage. It seems to have made things worse! Apollo inside and Ares outside seems to work better.

They seem a bit confused right now, don't know if I am doing the right thing.

Well I am working from home today and will let them ouside. Then my husband is going to be on holidays for 2 weeks.

[persephone]

Please don't 'fiddle' with this problem .. often dogs kept separate will show more aggression/anxiety when they do meet ...and it is hard to keep dogs separate when they have been together 7 years.Unfortunately , we can't see/hear your dogs , so our suggestions are just based on what we get from your writing, and experience ..not looking at your dogs behaving .

I advise a professional consultation - don't know what's what in your part of teh world, but Jane Harper has been mentioned lots on D O L .

A professional can assess both dogs- and the environment/management at home... and then work with you on things to help.

Your husband being on Holiday may or may not help .. but a good professional is still my suggestion.

[Sylvie]

Please don't 'fiddle' with this problem .. often dogs kept separate will show more aggression/anxiety when they do meet ...and it is hard to keep dogs separate when they have been together 7 years.Unfortunately , we can't see/hear your dogs , so our suggestions are just based on what we get from your writing, and experience ..not looking at your dogs behaving .

I advise a professional consultation - don't know what's what in your part of teh world, but Jane Harper has been mentioned lots on D O L .

A professional can assess both dogs- and the environment/management at home... and then work with you on things to help.

Your husband being on Holiday may or may not help .. but a good professional is still my suggestion.

I did not try to fiddle with it, but organising a vet check and a professional consultation might take some time. In the meantime I just wanted to try and avoid more fights. I will contact Jane Harper as soon as possible.

Thanks.

Sylvie.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Sylvie

[persephone]

I understand trying to manage the fights and you can only work with what you have .I don't envy you . Hope the new Year brings harmony!