Wkc Vs Ankc Kelpies

[Jumabaar]

Bluey doing flyball (he is a little slow because he hadnt done any full runs in over 6mths)

[koalathebear]

All the farmers around here don't really like the ANKC, I've heard that they're the pretty city cousins and a rip off of the real kelpie etc... I think they're nice dogs (I've met a few), never put them on sheep though. That's why I thought I'd ask, as views seem to be one sided around here

Depends who you ask. :p You'll also find a lot of pro-show Kelpie people who look down at the working line Kelpies because they don't have the 'correct conformation'. Like I said above, it really depends who you ask. It's pretty natural that a farmer would prefer the WKC/non-ANKC bred Kelpies. For a non-farmer or someone who doesn't want to show dogs, the difference doesn't really matter.

I can see that lol i guess you can't having working Kelpies living in the city, poor things would go bonkers without the proper excerise and mental stimulation they need.

Sorry but that is so wrong ... there are a lot of people (including many people on this board) who have WKC-registered i.e. working line Kelpies who live in the suburbs and are fine. I think any dog would go bonkers without proper stimulation - Kelpies just seem to have a particular bad name. All of the breeders I spoke with, working line and show, said Kelpies were totally fine in the suburbs as long as you didn't just dump them in a yard and expect them to entertain themselves.

[Jumabaar]

And a few pics for good measure

Edited December 8, 2011 by Jumabaar

[Jumabaar]

All the farmers around here don't really like the ANKC, I've heard that they're the pretty city cousins and a rip off of the real kelpie etc... I think they're nice dogs (I've met a few), never put them on sheep though. That's why I thought I'd ask, as views seem to be one sided around here

Depends who you ask. :p You'll also find a lot of pro-show Kelpie people who look down at the working line Kelpies because they don't have the 'correct conformation'. Like I said above, it really depends who you ask. It's pretty natural that a farmer would prefer the WKC/non-ANKC bred Kelpies. For a non-farmer or someone who doesn't want to show dogs, the difference doesn't really matter.

I can see that lol i guess you can't having working Kelpies living in the city, poor things would go bonkers without the proper excerise and mental stimulation they need.

Sorry but that is so wrong ... there are a lot of people (including many people on this board) who have WKC-registered i.e. working line Kelpies who live in the suburbs and are fine. I think any dog would go bonkers without proper stimulation - Kelpies just seem to have a particular bad name. All of the breeders I spoke with, working line and show, said Kelpies were totally fine in the suburbs as long as you didn't just dump them in a yard and expect them to entertain themselves.

I agree with you KTB!!

[kelpiechick]

DSO, one thing that I would do before I decided on a breeder would be to actually talk to people who own kelpies from particular studs - whether working or show line and get their personal experience in regard to what qualities you are looking for in a dog.

One thing I found when I was initially looking for a kelpie was that there is some 'bad blood' between a couple of the well known studs where one of them has passed on all sorts of rumours about the temperaments of particular lines from a couple of other breeders ..... not necessarily true, so don't listen to gossip and ask those who actually have owned those kelpies instead.

I have made the opposite 'change' to you - after running 2 kelpies in agility (and still do) I have added a BC to the mix (we began trialling part way through this year) and there is a world of difference in both training and running the 2 breeds. I am not advocating that one is any better than the other (yet, LOL) but just different. I intend to stick to owning both breeds as I believe it has made me a better trainer... certainly forced me to move outside my comfort zone and think about doing things in different ways.

If looking for an agility prospect it might be worthwhile looking at a couple of the working WA lines as well.

How are you finding that they are different?

Well not having a spare hour or so my answer will be abbreviated and generalised (LOL). The old saying 'ask a border collie to jump and he will say 'how high?' Ask a kelpie to jump and he will say 'why?' is very true !

The kelpies have every bit as much athleticism and drive as the BC but are much more 'show me the money' dogs. This might make it sound as if the BC is easier to train, but not always so, because I want the reinforcement to come from me rather than the agility equipment ....... so need to make sure I don't fall into that trap where I don't work as hard to be the one with the rewards. (Sorry, badly explained but hopefully you know what I mean)

The BC constantly looks to me for direction, whereas the kelpies think they know more than I do (which is probably right in many cases) and like to be a lot more independent when working.

I find the kelpies more mentally draining before I go into the ring to make sure they are in the Goldilocks state of arousal (just right !) whereas I dont have to do as much work in that respect with the BC - she is ready to go 24/7. The kelpies are a lot more forgiving of my handling errors than she is - in fact she is so super responsive and fast that I only have to be out of postion by a fraction and it's all over. My Q rate with the kelpies is much higher, but having said that, the BC is still a 'baby' (just coming up to 2 and a half) and only has a few months trialling experience under her belt. We're not a team yet in the way that I am with the kelpies.

I find my kelpies to be more 'thinking' dogs when it comes to shaping - it generally takes them longer to 'get' something but once they do it is a very strong behaviour, whereas the BC will offer things in a frenzy and if I am quick enough to capture the response I want then the behaviour comes quickly but often more by accident than anything else. Getting her to slow down and think is more of a challenge.

If I graphed the time it took to teach a behaviour, it would show a steady incline for the kelpies, whereas for the BC it would be flat for a while and then all of a sudden there would be a massive spike- latent learning seems to be much more applicable to her.

I have also found it much harder to change the way I do something (in regard to agility) with the kelpies, whereas the BC seems to be much more adaptable to trying something in a different way without falling back on old behaviours. The kelpies in particular seem to thrive on routine.

These are only generalisations for my own dogs, not meant to be a tried and true list of differences between the 2 breeds, but what I have found so far. (And I love them all, even though I swore I would never have a BC )

[Jumabaar]

DSO, one thing that I would do before I decided on a breeder would be to actually talk to people who own kelpies from particular studs - whether working or show line and get their personal experience in regard to what qualities you are looking for in a dog.

One thing I found when I was initially looking for a kelpie was that there is some 'bad blood' between a couple of the well known studs where one of them has passed on all sorts of rumours about the temperaments of particular lines from a couple of other breeders ..... not necessarily true, so don't listen to gossip and ask those who actually have owned those kelpies instead.

I have made the opposite 'change' to you - after running 2 kelpies in agility (and still do) I have added a BC to the mix (we began trialling part way through this year) and there is a world of difference in both training and running the 2 breeds. I am not advocating that one is any better than the other (yet, LOL) but just different. I intend to stick to owning both breeds as I believe it has made me a better trainer... certainly forced me to move outside my comfort zone and think about doing things in different ways.

If looking for an agility prospect it might be worthwhile looking at a couple of the working WA lines as well.

How are you finding that they are different?

Well not having a spare hour or so my answer will be abbreviated and generalised (LOL). The old saying 'ask a border collie to jump and he will say 'how high?' Ask a kelpie to jump and he will say 'why?' is very true !

The kelpies have every bit as much athleticism and drive as the BC but are much more 'show me the money' dogs. This might make it sound as if the BC is easier to train, but not always so, because I want the reinforcement to come from me rather than the agility equipment ....... so need to make sure I don't fall into that trap where I don't work as hard to be the one with the rewards. (Sorry, badly explained but hopefully you know what I mean)

The BC constantly looks to me for direction, whereas the kelpies think they know more than I do (which is probably right in many cases) and like to be a lot more independent when working.

I find the kelpies more mentally draining before I go into the ring to make sure they are in the Goldilocks state of arousal (just right !) whereas I dont have to do as much work in that respect with the BC - she is ready to go 24/7. The kelpies are a lot more forgiving of my handling errors than she is - in fact she is so super responsive and fast that I only have to be out of postion by a fraction and it's all over. My Q rate with the kelpies is much higher, but having said that, the BC is still a 'baby' (just coming up to 2 and a half) and only has a few months trialling experience under her belt. We're not a team yet in the way that I am with the kelpies.

I find my kelpies to be more 'thinking' dogs when it comes to shaping - it generally takes them longer to 'get' something but once they do it is a very strong behaviour, whereas the BC will offer things in a frenzy and if I am quick enough to capture the response I want then the behaviour comes quickly but often more by accident than anything else. Getting her to slow down and think is more of a challenge.

If I graphed the time it took to teach a behaviour, it would show a steady incline for the kelpies, whereas for the BC it would be flat for a while and then all of a sudden there would be a massive spike- latent learning seems to be much more applicable to her.

I have also found it much harder to change the way I do something (in regard to agility) with the kelpies, whereas the BC seems to be much more adaptable to trying something in a different way without falling back on old behaviours. The kelpies in particular seem to thrive on routine.

These are only generalisations for my own dogs, not meant to be a tried and true list of differences between the 2 breeds, but what I have found so far. (And I love them all, even though I swore I would never have a BC )

Wow I think you have described them to a T!! I have found similar differences (when I have helped out training my all my friends BCs)

[redial]

I heard a saying a lot when I was growing up "Never give a Kelpie to a man with Border collies, unless you want to see him cry" I guess it's because BC's are such people pleasers and thrive on being trained and love doing, whereas kelpies are more, "I know how to do this, shut up" kinda dogs. My kelpie also gets really annoyed at me if he thinks he's been treated unfairly and will make it known by being a butthead for the rest of the day. He's also slower to catch on but once he learns it he knows it for life, this doesn't guarantee that he will perform it every time. Sometimes he questions my judgment. I've spoken to a few Canadian farmers who prefer them over any dog, and UK farmers who can't believe we use them so much and value borders much more. Although english sheep are pretty quiet compared to the rough, wild stuff we get out west.

[xena98]

DSO, one thing that I would do before I decided on a breeder would be to actually talk to people who own kelpies from particular studs - whether working or show line and get their personal experience in regard to what qualities you are looking for in a dog.

One thing I found when I was initially looking for a kelpie was that there is some 'bad blood' between a couple of the well known studs where one of them has passed on all sorts of rumours about the temperaments of particular lines from a couple of other breeders ..... not necessarily true, so don't listen to gossip and ask those who actually have owned those kelpies instead.

I have made the opposite 'change' to you - after running 2 kelpies in agility (and still do) I have added a BC to the mix (we began trialling part way through this year) and there is a world of difference in both training and running the 2 breeds. I am not advocating that one is any better than the other (yet, LOL) but just different. I intend to stick to owning both breeds as I believe it has made me a better trainer... certainly forced me to move outside my comfort zone and think about doing things in different ways.

If looking for an agility prospect it might be worthwhile looking at a couple of the working WA lines as well.

I think my border collie must have been a kelpie. I had found her to be hard. She doesnt like change and loves her routines. She thinks she knows where the course goes better than me and I use to have to work hard to second guess her. She is totally different to the coolies. The coolies loved to learn and do different things and you can change the training anyway and they dont care but the border collie she just shuts down. She is much better now that she is older. I had a kelpie and she was a mad thing but that was in the days when we use to heel the dog around the course and boy you couldnt do that with the kelpie. If I had her now she would be awesome especially with the knowledge that I have now.

How are you finding that they are different?

Well not having a spare hour or so my answer will be abbreviated and generalised (LOL). The old saying 'ask a border collie to jump and he will say 'how high?' Ask a kelpie to jump and he will say 'why?' is very true !

The kelpies have every bit as much athleticism and drive as the BC but are much more 'show me the money' dogs. This might make it sound as if the BC is easier to train, but not always so, because I want the reinforcement to come from me rather than the agility equipment ....... so need to make sure I don't fall into that trap where I don't work as hard to be the one with the rewards. (Sorry, badly explained but hopefully you know what I mean)

The BC constantly looks to me for direction, whereas the kelpies think they know more than I do (which is probably right in many cases) and like to be a lot more independent when working.

I find the kelpies more mentally draining before I go into the ring to make sure they are in the Goldilocks state of arousal (just right !) whereas I dont have to do as much work in that respect with the BC - she is ready to go 24/7. The kelpies are a lot more forgiving of my handling errors than she is - in fact she is so super responsive and fast that I only have to be out of postion by a fraction and it's all over. My Q rate with the kelpies is much higher, but having said that, the BC is still a 'baby' (just coming up to 2 and a half) and only has a few months trialling experience under her belt. We're not a team yet in the way that I am with the kelpies.

I find my kelpies to be more 'thinking' dogs when it comes to shaping - it generally takes them longer to 'get' something but once they do it is a very strong behaviour, whereas the BC will offer things in a frenzy and if I am quick enough to capture the response I want then the behaviour comes quickly but often more by accident than anything else. Getting her to slow down and think is more of a challenge.

If I graphed the time it took to teach a behaviour, it would show a steady incline for the kelpies, whereas for the BC it would be flat for a while and then all of a sudden there would be a massive spike- latent learning seems to be much more applicable to her.

I have also found it much harder to change the way I do something (in regard to agility) with the kelpies, whereas the BC seems to be much more adaptable to trying something in a different way without falling back on old behaviours. The kelpies in particular seem to thrive on routine.

These are only generalisations for my own dogs, not meant to be a tried and true list of differences between the 2 breeds, but what I have found so far. (And I love them all, even though I swore I would never have a BC )

I think my border collie must have been a kelpie. I had found her to be hard. She doesnt like change and loves her routines. She thinks she knows where the course goes better than me and I use to have to work hard to second guess her. She is totally different to the coolies. The coolies loved to learn and do different things and you can change the training anyway and they dont care but the border collie she just shuts down. She is much better now that she is older. I had a kelpie and she was a mad thing but that was in the days when we use to heel the dog around the course and boy you couldnt do that with the kelpie. If I had her now she would be awesome especially with the knowledge that I have now.

[Weasels]

I can see that lol i guess you can't having working Kelpies living in the city, poor things would go bonkers without the proper excerise and mental stimulation they need.

Sorry but that is so wrong ... there are a lot of people (including many people on this board) who have WKC-registered i.e. working line Kelpies who live in the suburbs and are fine. I think any dog would go bonkers without proper stimulation - Kelpies just seem to have a particular bad name. All of the breeders I spoke with, working line and show, said Kelpies were totally fine in the suburbs as long as you didn't just dump them in a yard and expect them to entertain themselves.

The Fox approves of this post.

[koalathebear]

The Fox approves of this post.

My two clearly hate living in the suburbs ...

[redial]

[german_shep_fan]

All the farmers around here don't really like the ANKC, I've heard that they're the pretty city cousins and a rip off of the real kelpie etc... I think they're nice dogs (I've met a few), never put them on sheep though. That's why I thought I'd ask, as views seem to be one sided around here

Depends who you ask. :p You'll also find a lot of pro-show Kelpie people who look down at the working line Kelpies because they don't have the 'correct conformation'. Like I said above, it really depends who you ask. It's pretty natural that a farmer would prefer the WKC/non-ANKC bred Kelpies. For a non-farmer or someone who doesn't want to show dogs, the difference doesn't really matter.

I can see that lol i guess you can't having working Kelpies living in the city, poor things would go bonkers without the proper excerise and mental stimulation they need.

Sorry but that is so wrong ... there are a lot of people (including many people on this board) who have WKC-registered i.e. working line Kelpies who live in the suburbs and are fine. I think any dog would go bonkers without proper stimulation - Kelpies just seem to have a particular bad name. All of the breeders I spoke with, working line and show, said Kelpies were totally fine in the suburbs as long as you didn't just dump them in a yard and expect them to entertain themselves.

Sorry i didn't mean any offense in saying that, like i said i love Kelpies, im just going off a few different ppl i know of who own Kelpies and have problems with them escaping and having to run them ragged to wear them out ect. I guess it does depend on the individual dog. But i do agree with you, any dog can go nuts if they don't get out enough, there are a few that live near us like that, poor things are bored stupid

[Kavik]

Thanks kelpiechick!

I have a few people trying to persuade me to change teams ;) and I can see why they suggest it and they are probably right. At the moment though I think I will stay :D

[benshiva]

I heard a saying a lot when I was growing up "Never give a Kelpie to a man with Border collies, unless you want to see him cry" I guess it's because BC's are such people pleasers and thrive on being trained and love doing, whereas kelpies are more, "I know how to do this, shut up" kinda dogs. My kelpie also gets really annoyed at me if he thinks he's been treated unfairly and will make it known by being a butthead for the rest of the day. He's also slower to catch on but once he learns it he knows it for life, this doesn't guarantee that he will perform it every time. Sometimes he questions my judgment. I've spoken to a few Canadian farmers who prefer them over any dog, and UK farmers who can't believe we use them so much and value borders much more. Although english sheep are pretty quiet compared to the rough, wild stuff we get out west.

Well of course they'd cry if given a mere Kelpie. Everybody knows that Border Collies are supreme beings

Apologies, couldn't help myself Resume normal programming

[koalathebear]

I have a few people trying to persuade me to change teams ;)

and I can see why they suggest it and they are probably right. At the moment though I think I will stay :D

Phew! You had me worried for a moment there ;)

[redial]

I heard a saying a lot when I was growing up "Never give a Kelpie to a man with Border collies, unless you want to see him cry" I guess it's because BC's are such people pleasers and thrive on being trained and love doing, whereas kelpies are more, "I know how to do this, shut up" kinda dogs. My kelpie also gets really annoyed at me if he thinks he's been treated unfairly and will make it known by being a butthead for the rest of the day. He's also slower to catch on but once he learns it he knows it for life, this doesn't guarantee that he will perform it every time. Sometimes he questions my judgment. I've spoken to a few Canadian farmers who prefer them over any dog, and UK farmers who can't believe we use them so much and value borders much more. Although english sheep are pretty quiet compared to the rough, wild stuff we get out west.

Well of course they'd cry if given a mere Kelpie. Everybody knows that Border Collies are supreme beings

Apologies, couldn't help myself Resume normal programming

I will not bite...I will not bite hehehehe

[Weasels]

Sorry i didn't mean any offense in saying that, like i said i love Kelpies, im just going off a few different ppl i know of who own Kelpies and have problems with them escaping and having to run them ragged to wear them out ect. I guess it does depend on the individual dog. But i do agree with you, any dog can go nuts if they don't get out enough, there are a few that live near us like that, poor things are bored stupid

The Weez is too busy enjoying his cushy suburban life to be offended.

Seriously though I, at least, wasn't offended. It's a common statement that kelpies have no business being off a farm, so I was just glad KTB stepped in to disagree. Certainly not all dog owners would have the time and commitment required, but if you do invest that time you get sooo much back :D

The important thing is to provide mental stimulation. As our first trainer said to us, if you just exercise them without engaging their brains all you'll end up with is a fit, bored dog.

[dasha]

I am really going to reply here soon but need to find more time.

I prefer Kelpies. I love them, however I do sheepdog trials and now own 5 Border Collies and 2 kelpies.

Both kelpies have been retired/sacked from competition events for traits that haven't suited my desires.

My border collies would happily do any sport I chose, give it their best and want more.

One day I will get another Kelpie but I really find they need different handling,training and control measures that what most people think and are prepared to do.

Having said this, set those rules up from day 1 and you will have an awesome dog.

Gotta go for now.

Edited December 9, 2011 by dasha

[RallyValley]

Kelpies are very versatile and can also be trained to retrieve ducks ( ;) )

In all honesty my boy is of unknown origins but from the bush, he definitely has Kelpie in there and likely WKC Kelpie - he is a such a sweet boy and if I asked him to come for a 8km bike ride he would be there and if I was sick in bed for a week he would be on my feet all week. He used to live with sheep and was definitely very interested in them but I have no idea about sheep herding so do not if he was doing good things or bad things. He is smart and trainable - I would definitely recommend both WKC or ANKC kelpies, I find that the only difference for me would be a cosmetic one, I think someone with the right breeder/lines could find the right Kelpie for them from either registry.

Also benshiva Toby is heartbroken you think he is a 'mere' Kelpie :p I have owned one of each and have to say from my experience the poster that earlier described the differences was spot on!

[benshiva]

Kelpies are very versatile and can also be trained to retrieve ducks ( ;) )

In all honesty my boy is of unknown origins but from the bush, he definitely has Kelpie in there and likely WKC Kelpie - he is a such a sweet boy and if I asked him to come for a 8km bike ride he would be there and if I was sick in bed for a week he would be on my feet all week. He used to live with sheep and was definitely very interested in them but I have no idea about sheep herding so do not if he was doing good things or bad things. He is smart and trainable - I would definitely recommend both WKC or ANKC kelpies, I find that the only difference for me would be a cosmetic one, I think someone with the right breeder/lines could find the right Kelpie for them from either registry.

Also benshiva Toby is heartbroken you think he is a 'mere' Kelpie :p I have owned one of each and have to say from my experience the poster that earlier described the differences was spot on!

Aww sorry bout that Toby. You are very very cute

For a Kelpie