Vic's Breed Ban - 'good Dog, Bad Dog' - Article In Today&#

[jacqui835]

"The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)"

I don't know why this breed doesn't come with a warning...

[jacqui835]

Some of the results were surprising, below are the top ten most aggressive breeds:

1.Dachshunds

2.Chihuahua

3.Jack Russell

4.Australian Cattle Dog

5.Cocker Spaniel

6.Beagle

7.Border Collie

8.Pit Bull Terrier

9.Great Dane

10.English Springer Spaniel

The Dachshund, colloquially known as the Sausage dog, was originally bred to hunt badgers. They came out as the most aggressive breed with 1 in 5 reported to have bitten or tried to bite a stranger and 1 in 12 snapping at their owners.

[geo]

Some of the results were surprising, below are the top ten most aggressive breeds:

1.Dachshunds

2.Chihuahua

3.Jack Russell

4.Australian Cattle Dog

5.Cocker Spaniel

6.Beagle

7.Border Collie

8.Pit Bull Terrier

9.Great Dane

10.English Springer Spaniel

The Dachshund, colloquially known as the Sausage dog, was originally bred to hunt badgers. They came out as the most aggressive breed with 1 in 5 reported to have bitten or tried to bite a stranger and 1 in 12 snapping at their owners.

I know you may be trying to let people know about other potentially "aggressive" breeds, but lists of any kind are seldom helpful, and sometimes mislead people.

Statistics themselves should come with a warning, "to be taken with a pinch of salt", I mean how on earth do you measure aggression? how quick they turn nasty? do they bite or just snap a little? my dogs could be the most placid dogs you'll ever meet, but i'm sure they could be perceived as aggressive should they "protect" their yard, or if another dog attacked them etc...

I get the jist of your post but many anti BSL supporters (as i am) have gotten the blame for trying to drag other breeds down with the pitbull by mentioning other dog attacks... However they must be mentioned to a certain degree because pitbulls as we know aren't the only dogs that bite, and they certainly don't top the list.

[mumof4girls]

I can honestly say that the word Pit Bull makes me tense but only because of what I have read in the media and seen on TV. I have never seen one in person but if I did come across one whilst walking I would be tense/uneasy .. I don't believe I should be abused for that, I think having positive things written in this forum will change my view and is already making me research this breed further to find the truth. German shep fan, I can totally understand your frustration but it is hard not to buy into the media hype if you never hear good things and see attacks on a range of people, then when we also hear about the types of low life's breeding this breed of dog it is very scary... Like I said I am actually eager to read up on them more, I won't say I will ever own one but I will say I am very open to change and you have inspired me to at least get more informed

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Edited December 9, 2011 by mumof4girls

[Sheridan]

I can honestly say that the word Pit Bull makes me tense but only because of what I have read in the media and seen on TV. I have never seen one in person but if I did come across one whilst walking I would be tense/uneasy .. I don't believe I should be abused for that, I think having positive things written in this forum will change my view and is already making me research this breed further to find the truth. German shep fan, I can totally understand your frustration but it is hard not to buy into the media hype if you never hear good things and see attacks on a range of people, then when we also hear about the types of low life's breeding this breed of dog it is very scary... Like I said I am actually eager to read up on them more, I won't say I will ever own one but I will say I am very open to change and you have inspired me to at least get more informed

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Do you believe everything you read or hear in the media?

[melzawelza]

I can honestly say that the word Pit Bull makes me tense but only because of what I have read in the media and seen on TV. I have never seen one in person but if I did come across one whilst walking I would be tense/uneasy .. I don't believe I should be abused for that, I think having positive things written in this forum will change my view and is already making me research this breed further to find the truth. German shep fan, I can totally understand your frustration but it is hard not to buy into the media hype if you never hear good things and see attacks on a range of people, then when we also hear about the types of low life's breeding this breed of dog it is very scary... Like I said I am actually eager to read up on them more, I won't say I will ever own one but I will say I am very open to change and you have inspired me to at least get more informed

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Mumof4girls, the fact that you are open minded and said you are looking more into it puts you in a whole different category to previous posters in this thread. You don't deserve abuse for what you said, you deserve congratulations. It would be different if you were spouting absolutes as fact when they are incorrect, and supporting the eradication of an entire breed.

The first time I met a pit bull I was nervous too. Intellectually I knew it was stupid (I was working as a dog trainer in kennels and was very well versed in dog body language, and training), but my heart rate still increased involuntarily. It's amazing what the media can do to create a base level fear just at the WORD.

He was the sweetest, wriggliest man and I thoroughly enjoyed every second of training him. Now I'm a mad pit bull lady and I've got a (probable) one sleeping next to me right now. She is great with people, other dogs and my cats... and is a huge sook to boot.

If you were closer I would happily have you meet her. Meeting them is a surefire way to change the way you feel... once you do you can't resist.

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

At last, an article that makes some sense, what a relief to read that. At least the word that some of the public is unhappy with the current laws is getting out.

What we need is a better, more targeted way to approach the responsibility of dog ownership. I agree with the stronger penalties for dangerous dog owners actually, but the issue needs to be tackled from the before, not just the after effect.

[Kippy]

So these breeds go. What's the stop these people (because you're acknowledging it's the people creating these weapons) from going out and buying another breed and raising it tough?

Why do we assume these dogs are raised tough, hasn't anyone seen a crap dog before with reactive aggression for no good reason? You can buy a tough GSD with a predisposition for courage and aggression and can be trained to fight, but by default they don't randomly bite people unprovoked, neither will a well bred Rotty, dogs of balanced traits and stable temperament don't feature in unprovoked bite statistics, why do we need to protect crap dogs so they can be reproduced?

[melzawelza]

So these breeds go. What's the stop these people (because you're acknowledging it's the people creating these weapons) from going out and buying another breed and raising it tough?

Why do we assume these dogs are raised tough, hasn't anyone seen a crap dog before with reactive aggression for no good reason? You can buy a tough GSD with a predisposition for courage and aggression and can be trained to fight, but by default they don't randomly bite people unprovoked, neither will a well bred Rotty, dogs of balanced traits and stable temperament don't feature in unprovoked bite statistics, why do we need to protect crap dogs so they can be reproduced?

?? Well bred Pit Bulls don't bite people unprovoked. In fact they're one of the breeds least likely to do so due to being specifically selected against human aggression.

I loathe to draw comparisons to other breeds but you statements that GSD and Rottweiler's do not feature in bite stats is completely incorrect. Both feature very highly. That's not to say they're bad dogs (I love both), but they are also a breed targeted by bad breeders and worse owners.

[melzawelza]

So these breeds go. What's the stop these people (because you're acknowledging it's the people creating these weapons) from going out and buying another breed and raising it tough?

Why do we assume these dogs are raised tough, hasn't anyone seen a crap dog before with reactive aggression for no good reason? You can buy a tough GSD with a predisposition for courage and aggression and can be trained to fight, but by default they don't randomly bite people unprovoked, neither will a well bred Rotty, dogs of balanced traits and stable temperament don't feature in unprovoked bite statistics, why do we need to protect crap dogs so they can be reproduced?

?? Well bred Pit Bulls don't bite people unprovoked. In fact they're one of the breeds least likely to do so due to being specifically selected against human aggression.

I loathe to draw comparisons to other breeds but you statements that GSD and Rottweiler's do not feature in bite stats is completely incorrect. Both feature very highly. That's not to say they're bad dogs (I love both), but they are also a breed targeted by bad breeders and worse owners.

[Keira&Phoenix]

I can honestly say that the word Pit Bull makes me tense but only because of what I have read in the media and seen on TV. I have never seen one in person but if I did come across one whilst walking I would be tense/uneasy .. I don't believe I should be abused for that, I think having positive things written in this forum will change my view and is already making me research this breed further to find the truth. German shep fan, I can totally understand your frustration but it is hard not to buy into the media hype if you never hear good things and see attacks on a range of people, then when we also hear about the types of low life's breeding this breed of dog it is very scary... Like I said I am actually eager to read up on them more, I won't say I will ever own one but I will say I am very open to change and you have inspired me to at least get more informed

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I agree with everything Melz replied to you.

And on that topic I am more than happy to volunteer my time and my dog to give you a face to face, hands on experience with a "pitbull". . If you are interested let me know.

[melzawelza]

Good on you K&P!

[Alkhe]

I can honestly say that the word Pit Bull makes me tense but only because of what I have read in the media and seen on TV. I have never seen one in person but if I did come across one whilst walking I would be tense/uneasy .. I don't believe I should be abused for that, I think having positive things written in this forum will change my view and is already making me research this breed further to find the truth. German shep fan, I can totally understand your frustration but it is hard not to buy into the media hype if you never hear good things and see attacks on a range of people, then when we also hear about the types of low life's breeding this breed of dog it is very scary... Like I said I am actually eager to read up on them more, I won't say I will ever own one but I will say I am very open to change and you have inspired me to at least get more informed

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I agree with everything Melz replied to you.

And on that topic I am more than happy to volunteer my time and my dog to give you a face to face, hands on experience with a "pitbull". . If you are interested let me know.

to both of you, K&P and melzawelza.

I also completely understand what you mean about being influenced by the media, mumof4girls. It's not just about "believing everything you read" or hear, it's the fact that things will trigger responses in us. I think of it like phobias, too. I have a completely ridiculous and irrational fear of dead birds. It's stupid, illogical, and I have tried for years to get it through my head that dead birds will not hurt me, touch me, come and get me.. etc. And that my fear is stupid. But it's just one of things. I can't rationalise it, and it doesn't matter what anyone tells me about it.

That's trivialising it a bit, but people will sometimes have reactions to some dogs (or people, or.. anything) based on what htey have seen or read, unintentionally. It's great that this forum provides opportunities for people to actually think through these things and understand them from the other point of view.

[Kippy]

So these breeds go. What's the stop these people (because you're acknowledging it's the people creating these weapons) from going out and buying another breed and raising it tough?

Why do we assume these dogs are raised tough, hasn't anyone seen a crap dog before with reactive aggression for no good reason? You can buy a tough GSD with a predisposition for courage and aggression and can be trained to fight, but by default they don't randomly bite people unprovoked, neither will a well bred Rotty, dogs of balanced traits and stable temperament don't feature in unprovoked bite statistics, why do we need to protect crap dogs so they can be reproduced?

?? Well bred Pit Bulls don't bite people unprovoked. In fact they're one of the breeds least likely to do so due to being specifically selected against human aggression.

I loathe to draw comparisons to other breeds but you statements that GSD and Rottweiler's do not feature in bite stats is completely incorrect. Both feature very highly. That's not to say they're bad dogs (I love both), but they are also a breed targeted by bad breeders and worse owners.

What I am talking about is the assumption a dog has attacked because it's been raised to attack, hit with sticks, chained up etc all that stuff?. My point is regardless of breed, some individual dogs are bad dogs, their default behaviour is to attack without any influence on the owners part other than allowing the dog to find it's way onto the street. I know a few dogs like this with great owners who have worked hard at trying to improve their dog's behaviour, but if they left the gate open one day by accident, the dog would bite someone for sure, but they were not rasied tough at all,it's just how they are aggressive nasty dogs?

There are GSD and Rotties like this too, but these are not good examples of the breed and definitely don't need to be bred for more of the same temperaments. I don't go with assumption that dogs who have attacked are lovely dogs turned bad by the owners, I think in most cases the owners failed by containing their bad dogs effectively and they have gotten out to strut their stuff.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Kippy

[Blonde_Phoenix]

What I am talking about is the assumption a dog has attacked because it's been raised to attack, hit with sticks, chained up etc all that stuff?. My point is regardless of breed, some individual dogs are bad dogs, their default behaviour is to attack without any influence on the owners part other than allowing the dog to find it's way onto the street. I know a few dogs like this with great owners who have worked hard at trying to improve their dog's behaviour, but if they left the gate open one day by accident, the dog would bite someone for sure, but they were not rasied tough at all,it's just how they are aggressive nasty dogs?

There are GSD and Rotties like this too, but these are not good examples of the breed and definitely don't need to be bred for more of the same temperaments. I don't go with assumption that dogs who have attacked are lovely dogs turned bad by the owners, I think in most cases the owners failed by containing their bad dogs effectively and they have gotten out to strut their stuff.

I don't think it's about 'bad' vs 'good' all dogs have their strengths and weaknesses it's about owners recognising understanding their dogs and taking responsibility (or being forced to). Dogs don't have human capacities they react to a situation and we as owners need to acknowledge that. It's not about 'breed' it's about understanding your particular dog.

[Blonde_Phoenix]

I can honestly say that the word Pit Bull makes me tense but only because of what I have read in the media and seen on TV. I have never seen one in person but if I did come across one whilst walking I would be tense/uneasy .. I don't believe I should be abused for that, I think having positive things written in this forum will change my view and is already making me research this breed further to find the truth. German shep fan, I can totally understand your frustration but it is hard not to buy into the media hype if you never hear good things and see attacks on a range of people, then when we also hear about the types of low life's breeding this breed of dog it is very scary... Like I said I am actually eager to read up on them more, I won't say I will ever own one but I will say I am very open to change and you have inspired me to at least get more informed

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I give you a million oh if only more of the general public was like you . The current legislation has seen to the fact you wont see a well bred American Pit Bull and that is a huge shame. I have been blessed enough to meet some in my youth and I adored them agreed, not for everyone but lovely animals.

[Guest donatella]

"The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)"

I don't know why this breed doesn't come with a warning...

Because of ONE attack? Yes its one attack too many, but I think one attack out of millions and millions hardly makes for a breed that needs a warning.

To be fair they are already a breed that are not recommended for small children so i'm not sure what more a warning you want. Small children do far more damage to Poms actually.

We also don't know the full story of how the baby and the dog were introduced. There are books, articles and training programmes on how to integrate dogs and new babies into families to prevent attacks. I don't think its breed specific, it happens with a lot of breeds and can happen with ANY dog should the right steps not be taken (training, introduction etc). Hearing about a dog attacking a baby is an all too frequent news headline involving many breeds.

According to Wikipedia the Doberman has made a few fatal attacks, lets make sure we put that breed down on the warnings list to hey ;)

September 7 2003 Doberman pinscher Valerie DeSwart 67 years Killed by a rescue dog she had adopted. The rescue organization was under investigation for mistreating the dogs under its care.[14]

May 25 2007 German Shepherd Dog, Doberman Pinscher Magdalena Silva 95 years Killed by her dogs as she went to feed them)[98]

January 4 2008 Doberman Pinscher Andrew Stein 8 months Killed by his family's dog[123]

September 16 2011 Doberman Pinscher Donna Conrad 71 years Killed by her dog.[225]

Edited December 13, 2011 by donatella

[Rottshowgirl]

Er Donatella, I think you will find that Jacqui835 is being facetious. Maybe take a deep breath......

But thanks for choosing to bring up stats about another breed to take the 'spotlight' off yours :rolleyes: Very constructive.

[german_shep_fan]

I think we would be hard pushed to find a breed that hasn't featured in an attack on a person or animal at some point. I think some just have a problem with recognising this and like to believe that breeds the media hypes as family dogs like labs and retrievers are exempt from such attacks when its clearly not the truth. All dogs can attack, not just the breeds the media want the public to think of as aggressive and scary.

[sandgrubber]

In California, staffies are relatively rare and APBT's (street bred, not pedigree, but generally fitting the description) are very common, especially in shelters and pounds.

Californicos generally throw SBT's and APBT's together in the same generally muddled category. Some say ban. Others say ban deed not breed. No one is sure what the 'breed' is, exactly.

There are differences between the bull breeds. But for an Ozzie who hasn't ever known a pit bull, I'd say you're not far off thinking of an APBT as being quite a bit like a SBT. There are good ones . . . there are bad ones. There are good owners, there are bad owners. The 'bull' + 'terrier' combination can produce some potentially dangerous dogs who become dangerous dogs in the hands of drongos, and sweet tail waggers / lick monsters in the hands of decent folks. And, yes, as with many other breeds (I'm specifically thinking of Cocker spaniels, springer spaniels and golden retrievers), there are some aggressive or rage-prone bloodlines.

Take-away message: more control is required from owners . . . and breeders need to cull lines with temperament problems. There are some breed tendencies. But these are easily kept under control if owners and breeders were held to account.