Barf And Weight Loss

[Mel774]

As some of you may have read - I have a problem with inconsiderate people feeding my dog junk food. He is starting to become overweight despite me cutting down his food portions (I had no idea he was being fed extra until last night).

His diet consists of chicken mince, vegetables, chicken necks and sometimes frames and the occasional lamb bone (though he hasnt had any recently). His breeder suggested we also keep a small bowl of Supercoat puppy out for him, so this is sort of his lunch. He doesnt eat a great deal of it and I've taken it away from him now coz I think he's too big for puppy food.

I am wondering how I can reduce his fat, while still keeping him on an inexpensive and natural diet (Money is extremely tight at the moment, only spent $37 on food for us this week and $8 on him, but I do have a job now so things are going to be ok again in a few weeks)

I was looking at Royal Canin food today. They have "maxi" size foods for large puppies and they also have a good light brand. I dont need to drastically drop his weight, just curb any weight gain and try to lose some of his extra kilos from his naughty snacks. The guy at the supply store gave me a sample of food specially made for labs and goldens (Royal Canin Labrador Retriever 30). I couldnt afford to just buy the 3kg bag (which he insisted was a weeks worth of food but since I dont like feeding kibble as a primary meal ours would last much longer). I gave Kaden the sample tonight and he LOVED it!!!! He kept looking for more. I fed him a couple of chicken necks too and he was still very hungry (the sample was fairly small) so I also gave him a very very small portion of his mince. He's happily rolling around in the garden now.

His diet has worked so well for him in the past. He's got great gums, fantastic teeth, stools are good, coat is soft and shiney and he's very happy. The pet supply guy made a stupid comment about being forced to starve him if I ever wanted to get his weight off on BARF but I know he was also trying to make the sale. I told him he was never getting a primary kibble meal and I wasnt able to buy the product today anyway (so I got away with the sample instead lol).

Ok... so in summary:

-How to reduce fat intake on BARF?

-Is Royal Canin any good? Particularly the retriever food

-Does anyone know of any web sites that sell it so I could save on some costs?

-Any other suggestions?

[Dogsfevr]

As you would now to much chicken isnt great as it has no iron so unless you are supplementing or given another source of food with it you will have a sick dog down the track.

Royal canin is great but extremely expensive for a big bag especially the specialty ones.

Mind you no point spending etxra on food if the snacks are still going to be feed to him,stop the snacks & the weight will come off

[Kez]

I'd ditch the chicken for a start (or at least swap at least half of it for another meat protein source)...

Chicken (standard cull hen, meat only, no skin) is 10% fat, 21% protein, contains 165 kcals/100g ME, and is only 0.5 mg/100g Iron.

Chicken mince (including bones, but no feathers or gut) is 19.4% Fat, 21.2% protein, contains 250 kcals/100g ME, and is only 1.0 mg/100g Iron.

Chicken Necks are 18.6% fat, 13.2% protein, contains 233 kcals/100g ME, and is only 1.8 mg/100g Iron.

As an alternative:

Fish (steamed whiting) - 0.9% fat, 20.9% protein, 92 kcals/100g ME, 1.0 mg/100g Iron.

Fish (whole mullet) - 4% fat, 20.3% protein, 119 kcals/100g ME, 1.3 mg/100g Iron.

Fish (steamed flounder) - 0.5% fat, 15% protein, 85 kcals/100g ME, 1.2 mg/100g Iron.

If your dog doesn't have a red meat allergy:

Very Lean beef (eg: skirt or beef flap) is only 4.6% fat, but has 22.4% protein and contains 123 kcals/100g ME. It also has 2.1 mg/100g Iron.

Horse meat may cause a digestive allergy when fed alone, and the protein is less digestible, but for comparison sake: Is on average 7% fat, 19.3% protein, contains 130 kcals/100g ME, and has 4.8 mg/100g Iron.

It is best mixed with chicken on a 50% basis.

Kangaroo Meat is exceptionally low in fat and energy. It has 0.6% fat, 21.6% protein, contains 100 kcals/100g ME - Iron content I don't know.

Lamb (leg meat) is 18.7% fat, 17.9% protein, contains 240 kcals/100g ME, and has 1.7 mg/100g Iron.

Pork (regular) is 22.5% fat, 16.6% protein, contains 269 kcals/100g ME, and only 0.8 mg/100g Iron.

Veal (meat, lean average) is 2.6% fat, 19% protein, contains 1103 kcals/100g ME, and has 1.7 mg/100g iron.

Rabbit (raw) is 4% fat, 21.9% protein, contains 130 kcals/100g ME, and has 1.9 mg/100g Iron.

Hopefully that might help you decide how to adjust your feeding :rolleyes:

Edited March 12, 2005 by Kez

[Mel774]

He gets occasional beef mince (not often though as we cant afford it), some lamb bones when the butcher has good ones and sardines as regular extras in his meals. That's why we also kept him on some of the dry food that the breeder was feeding him because we wanted something that was nutritionally balanced without giving him a completely dry food diet (the breeder had him on chicken mince and supercoat).

I want to get a really good quality dry food that will help him get some of his vitamins and things he needs. I have always been hesitant to ask vets because they tend to repeat the rep's sales pitch. Now I work at a vets clinic so I know I'll get recommended a bag of Eukenuba or Hill's Science Diet. I'm not sure if I'm eligable for a staff discount (Not sure if they have them and I've only been there a week).

What are your opinions (open to anyone) on these dry food brands and value for money also.

[Mel774]

Wow thanks for that Kez, I was replying as you posted so I didnt read that before.

He used to get a lot of beef mince as a little puppy (when he ate less basically) because we could afford it. Money is a huge issue for us at the moment. I have money saved away for him in another account but I cant really draw much from that at the moment because I keep it for his medical bills and he's getting desexed soon. He has a lot more money than I do lol

I'd be happy to feed him beef, kangaroo or rabbit mince but I dont know how much this would cost or where I would get it from. I have to draw the line at horse meat I think.... although my OH assured me that it's in the cats food so that's just great :rolleyes:

I only started him on chicken coz it was what the breeder fed and its cheap and easily obtainable. I'm a little scared by those fat content figures...I have 5kilos of it sitting in the freezer!!!!

[Kez]

I won't feed a dry feed that gets it's meat "content" from Offal, since ALL offal is treated with a preservative before it is turned into the pet food.

One of the most common preservatives used contains SODIUM METABISULPHITE (and 18% by weight, Sulphur Dioxide).

Sodium metabisulphite is a reducing agent, and is a "reverse" action agent to the common HYDROGEN PEROXIDE...'metabisulphite' removes oxygen from a product and 'peroxide' adds oxygen to a product... In both cases the chemical reaction leaves both a salt, gas or an acid as the residual...

It is not harmful in the designated dose, but it does remove flavour and goodness from the product. It is regularly used in cooking to "green" vegetables and "tenderise" meats, and is closely related to, and substituted for MSG.

Cooking won't reduce the amount of Sodium Metabisulphite in the meat. This product is known to destroy the Thiamine (Vitamin B1) in the diet, and in the long term, this may cause severe nervous system damage and possibly even death.

The fact that the preservative also contains Sulphur Dioxide is more of a worry. This product in susceptible dogs can affect the hemoglobin part of the blood and produce Sulfhemoglobin. As little as 0.5 g/dl of Sulfhemoglobin is sufficient to cause rapid oxygen depletion of the body during exercise.

[Kez]

I'd be happy to feed him beef, kangaroo or rabbit mince but I dont know how much this would cost or where I would get it from. I have to draw the line at horse meat I think.... although my OH assured me that it's in the cats food so that's just great :cool:

Beef mince is best sourced from a greyhound supplies place (price wise) - I get mine for $1.90 a kilogram (if I was willing to buy it in 10 kg bags & divide it into smaller portions myself, I'd probably get it cheaper! )... If you are a "regular" (or make yourself known to the staff that you will be a regular) you should get the cheaper price, as I think "pet buyers" that only go in for 1 kg every 6 weeks (to give the dog a treat) pay a bit more, around $2.50 a kg IIRC.

Yes it is still treated with a preservative, but AFAIK it is only a salt based preservative (short term preservative for transporting only) due to the "health needs" of racing greyhounds.

Your DH is correct about horse meat being in cat food - it's also in cheap brand dog foods (and some more expensive ones), and in garden fertiliser (blood & bone)... but lord knows what else is in with the horse meat too for that matter!

You should be able to get Roo meat cheaper than beef mince, from the same "greyhound supplies" places - a lot of greyhound trainers feed roo meat because it is cheaper.

:rolleyes:

[Mel774]

So this product is contained in all dog dry food or should I seek out one that doesnt contain SODIUM METABISULPHITE??

This is scary. Argh just when you think you've got it right! lol!!

I am VERY VERY paranoid about keeping my dog in good health. He is my first ever dog, only previous dog I've had was my dad's dog who was fed an extremely bad diet and as a result, died from severe pancreatitus. Now that I am in charge of feeding my own dog, I will not let him suffer from ill health and I try to read everything I can before deciding what to feed him. Thanks for the info, I appreciate it a lot.

[Mel774]

holy sh** you can get beef mince that cheap?!??!?!?! I have absolutely no idea where I could get red meat that cheap. Cheapest I've ever seen is $6 a kilo and most butchers sell the most disgust chicken mince I've ever seen (no beef mince)

Ok I need to find one of these greyhound supply stores!!!!! Maybe I should ask Greytmate, she's a coastie greyhound lover!!!

[Guest Dr Nat]

Gets pretty confusing doesn't it? OK, this is what I recommend to clients.

Firstly, Royal Canin is an excellent product. They have a pet shop/ produce range and a veterinary range. We have found the vet range has excellent palatability compared to other premium brands. They have a weight control product which is ideal in adult dogs that are putting on the pounds. The differences in the ranges is likely the protein sources. The rule of thumb with dry foods is you pay for what you get. The cheaper a food is then the more plant proteins ( as opposed to meat based proteins) it has. Not such a great thing for carnivores and may answe reasons why they get big poos!

Serious weight control/reduction usually needs a diet that has known energy and still maintains adequate levels of vitamins and minerals. If you want to spread it a little (as many owners do) I usually suggest:

Stop the snacks - if you must use a treat give a bit of the kibble or use oven dried liver bits. This will stop them putting on more weight but is unlikely to result in weight loss.

The royal canin weight control ( veterinary range)will tell you how much you need to feed your pet - If you want to add your own bits then ensure you feed about 70% and make up the rest with vegies, meat etc. And of course increase the exercise if possible.

Although inexact, you will be more likely to get results whilst limiting the possibilities of deficiencies in trace minerals etc.

Most seem happy to use this approach, its simple, more cost effective and has achieved good results.

Woof!

[Mel774]

Stop the snacks - if you must use a treat give a bit of the kibble or use oven dried liver bits. This will stop them putting on more weight but is unlikely to result in weight loss.

Just so you know, I have never ever given him snacks other his training treats which he rarely gets - neighbours have been feeding him human biscuits behind our back and we havent figured out which one, just found him hanging around the fence scoffing biscuits and they only do it at night so it's been very hard to catch. His biggest weight gain started when he was off his food - someone is offering something better and I'm furious about it!!!

I havent seen the vet range of Royal Canin, I'll keep an eye out.

I found a web site that sells it for $20 per 3kg rather than $33 (but dont know how much delivery is)

[blacklabrador]

Mel I have difficulty keeping weight ON my dogs when on BARF alone.... (and thats with plenty of lamb bones thrown in)

Kaden did not look overweight last Sunday.... :rolleyes:

[KJ]

I have recently been feeding my labs on the Royal Canin Lab food and they love it and have been doing really well on it. I feed my labs both raw and the Royal Canin.

[Mags]

Mel if you are going to start feeding Royal Canin make sure you get one of their frequent buyers card - I think its buy 10 and get one free. Have just filled my card so don't have one at the moment to check - 10% discount does help. Also works out significantly cheaper if you buy a bigger bag.

For registered breeders you need to check out their special deals for registered breeders http://www.royalcanin.com.au/ - really worth joining their club if you feed their food regularly.

[Mel774]

blacklab, Kaden's brother wont put on weight either which is why I was careful to keep his diet balanced. He was fed on Eukenuba and started to look almost anorexic and the breeder said get him off it asap and when I got Kaden she asked me not to feed him Eukenuba.

He isn't really overweight (although I did get told off at dog training this weekend for him getting overweight) but I cant really feel his ribs that well now and he's definately heading that way. He is a solid boy so I've always taken it as puppy fat. He still has a fair bit of filling out to do, getting close to full size but still with a puppy body so he's got a good 6 months left of growing time I think.

KJ, glad your dogs have been going well on the Lab food. It does seem like a good product and Kaden loved it. If I get Royal Canin for him I'd be feeding with with some raw too. Could you please tell me what is the full diet you feed your labs (on an average week) and how much would you say it costs? (you can PM me if you want)

I am planning on getting a friend for Kaden one day (not soon though) and it will most likely be a lab so it would be great to get a good retriever diet going to keep them both fit and healthy.

Mags - thanks for the tip!!! I like the sound of discounts!!

[aatainc]

chicken frames are cheaper than necks etc. Just give him 1 chicken frame, minced vegies, supplements (vegemite/brewers yeast, apple cider vinegar, oils, sardine, honey) and that should be enough. You really don't need any dry food. It's usually the dry food which is the culprit in weight gain, although you do have a differnet situation here. Go yell at your neighbours!! Or, keep him in or supervised at all times until you know who it is - then yell at them!

[Staff'n'Toller]

Hey Mel, I was gonna post this in your 'off topic' topic, but since this one is still active and the other one isn't- thought I'd post here instead.

How did you go finding out who was feeding Kaden?? Just wondered.

[Mel774]

No luck yet unfortunately. They seem to be hiding whenever we go into the yard (because when we see Kaden waiting at the fence, we go outside). I'm pretty sure I know what house it is but if my presence alone is already stopping it then I cant just go over to their house and have a go. Plus I dont know who in the house is doing it. I'm just keeping a very close watch of the situation at present.

Right now I am watching Kaden burn off some fat with the good ol' fashion puppy zoomies!!!

[winewood]

If $ are tight, source out wholesale butchers I used to feed 2 fully grown airedales for about $5.00 a week from the local chichen shop would sell off a barrel of frames and bits and pieces for $10.00 and I found a wholesale place which boned lamb and I'd pay $1.00 per whole neck, skin on and sometimes fur/wool tufts which was a complete meal plus bones and bits and peices for $1.00 KL

Then I 'd cook pasta or rice add homebrand mixed veg and other garlic etc. Can each of homebrand sardines a week and left overs from our dinner and keep a lookout in the supermarket for selling off of meat $1 or 2 . The other thing they would get is porridge for breakfast or Vegemite toast and fruit that came home in the school bag. If you work it out they basicaly ate the same as us but a lot more bones they both lived to a very good age 11 and 12 as long as you have the freezer space, I'd shop for them once a month and it cost me about $20.00 and only had a few vet bills. I'm planning on doing the same with my 13week old pup although she will probably only eat 1/4 of what they did.

[Guest subyroo]

I have 2 Labs (B/M 11½ and Y/F 12) they were overweight but I have trimmed them down on dry food and beef soup bones.

They both get 2 cups of biscuits with 1 cup of rice & carrots (I cook up) every 2nd night and each other night they get 2 x beef soup bones.

According to Dr Harry the rice & carrots stops their urine killing the lawn and it appears to be working because we have had no brown spots in the lawn for over 6mths now.