What Would You Expect/do In This Situation

[Crisovar]

Sometimes you just have to accept that shit happens and move on. Sadly we can never guarantee perfection. One of the nicest pups I ever bred and probably the closest ever to being what I considered to be the total package for me, had to be desexed due to issues that had not surfaced in several generations, it was terribly disappointing, but you move on.

[minxy]

Wow, I didn't realise they could test for luxating patellas like that! That gives me something to think about now... My boy has them, and we are waiting for him to be able to have surgery. We have another appointment at the specialist on Tuesday morning to see whether he's ready or not yet.

[Gretel]

I've had several pups have great patellas at their first check up and then go on to develop problems It is so disappointing. These pups were checked by a very experienced and well thought of vet.

[dancinbcs]

I was under the impression that when it came to genetic faults, the breeder of pedigrees pet or show was at least half liable for costs or replacement at breeders discretion. That at worst case they ask for documented proof of a vet stating it was genetic. And the whole point why we are trying to get the general public to buy from us, is that everything possible has been done to provide them with a genetically sound dog whether it be pet or show.

A number of breeders I've dealt with is the past have shown this to be the case and when I start my kennel, I had every intention on following that path.

Isn't it part being an ethical breeder to do so.

I had a friend the other day state that this is exactly why they refuse to buy pedigree papered dogs, so much money spent on a dog for when it goes wrong and it is the breeding at fault the breeder wants nothing to do with you.

Please correct me if I am wrong, As I will continue to provide this when I start but lower my expectations of fellow breeders.

Firstly all dogs have genetic faults of some sort. There is no such thing as a perfect dog despite the fact that show/performance breeders are all trying to breed them. In any given litter there will hopefully be at least one or two that are close to perfect but the others will all have genetic faults that are more or less obvious.

Breeders have a responsibility to avoid breeding any health defects that can be determined by testing of the parents. So anything inherited as a simple recessive condition, has a DNA test available and requires both parents to be carriers, is easly controlled by genetic testing. These tests are available for a small percentage of the possible health defects in dogs and have been developed by the dedication of breeders to finding answers.

Other conditions have screening tests for the parents to assess the phenotype of the parents so informed breeding choices can be made to reduce the incidence of these problems. No one can guarantee that they can always produce puppies free from the problem if there is no definitive genetic test available.

Congential conditons that may or may not be genetic can be checked for in some puppies in some breeds. Heart, spine, eye and in some breeds ED comes under this category. Depending on the condition and results the puppy may be placed with full disclosure or pts. Again breeds would prefer to never breed these problems but cannot always avoid them.

Somewhere breeders have to draw the line at what they will be responsible for. If they breed a puppy with a fatal congenital condition, I believe they should refund the purchase price. For non-fatal conditions it is up the discretion of the breeder. Some things like HD have a very large environmental component with diet and exercise figuring in the final result and breeders cannot control how the puppies they sell are raised. Other conditions can be congenitial or aquired later and sometimes it is difficult to determine which.

The average vet is not an expert on inherited genetic conditions and often get the diagnosis wrong, so a vet declaring something to be a hereditary problem cannot be taken as fact. Much more research is usually needed before that sort of claim can be made but a lot of vets like to blame breeders for everything.

Most show breeders are very concerned about the babies they produce and if they honestly believe they have inadvertantly sold a puppy with an existing serious health defect, they will replace or refund. Some will do the same if an aquired problem happens as the puppy develops but it all depends on the defect, how hard they have worked to avoid it and if there is any chance that environment could have influenced the condition.

Edited December 4, 2011 by dancinbcs

[Angeluca]

I was under the impression that when it came to genetic faults, the breeder of pedigrees pet or show was at least half liable for costs or replacement at breeders discretion. That at worst case they ask for documented proof of a vet stating it was genetic. And the whole point why we are trying to get the general public to buy from us, is that everything possible has been done to provide them with a genetically sound dog whether it be pet or show.

A number of breeders I've dealt with is the past have shown this to be the case and when I start my kennel, I had every intention on following that path.

Isn't it part being an ethical breeder to do so.

I had a friend the other day state that this is exactly why they refuse to buy pedigree papered dogs, so much money spent on a dog for when it goes wrong and it is the breeding at fault the breeder wants nothing to do with you.

Please correct me if I am wrong, As I will continue to provide this when I start but lower my expectations of fellow breeders.

Firstly all dogs have genetic faults of some sort. There is no such thing as a perfect dog despite the fact that show/performance breeders are all trying to breed them. In any given litter there will hopefully be at least one or two that are close to perfect but the others will all have genetic faults that are more or less obvious.

Breeders have a responsibility to avoid breeding any health defects that can be determined by testing of the parents. So anything inherited as a simple recessive condition, has a DNA test available and requires both parents to be carriers, is easly controlled by genetic testing. These tests are available for a small percentage of the possible health defects in dogs and have been developed by the dedication of breeders to finding answers.

Other conditions have screening tests for the parents to assess the phenotype of the parents so informed breeding choices can be made to reduce the incidence of these problems. No one can guarantee that they can always produce puppies free from the problem if there is no definitive genetic test available.

Congential conditons that may or may not be genetic can be checked for in some puppies in some breeds. Heart, spine, eye and in some breeds ED comes under this category. Depending on the condition and results the puppy may be placed with full disclosure or pts. Again breeds would prefer to never breed these problems but cannot always avoid them.

Somewhere breeders have to draw the line at what they will be responsible for. If they breed a puppy with a fatal congenital condition, I believe they should refund the purchase price. For non-fatal conditions it is up the discretion of the breeder. Some things like HD have a very large environmental component with diet and exercise figuring in the final result and breeders cannot control how the puppies they sell are raised. Other conditions can be congenitial or aquired later and sometimes it is difficult to determine which.

The average vet is not an expert on inherited genetic conditions and often get the diagnosis wrong, so a vet declaring something to be a hereditary problem cannot be taken as fact. Much more research is usually needed before that sort of claim can be made but a lot of vets like to blame breeders for everything.

Most show breeders are very concerned about the babies they produce and if they honestly believe they have inadvertantly sold a puppy with an existing serious health defect, they will replace or refund. Some will do the same if an aquired problem happens as the puppy develops but it all depends on the defect, how hard they have worked to avoid it and if there is any chance that environment could have influenced the condition.

Thanks for your reply,

And to clarify the genetic defect would obviously have to be a reasonable serious health defect to warrant shared costs or replacement, and with things like hd and ed ect environment is a serious factor making it almost impossible to see how much is at breeding fault. And this subject has me sweating my pants off (excuse the phrase) from the moment my first litter hits the ground. The fact that vets are seriously under-skilled in many cases worries me too.

My vet told me my boy tore his crucial ligament in his right knee at 3 mths old also saying his other was on the way out. My breeder was in full support asked me to get a second specialist appoint. I did and specialist told me it was only bruised and only needed anti-inflammation med as GR have flexible knee joints to begin with. 2 days he was normal. But the specialist also asked me to fuse his hips to prevent HD. A procedure that can only be done at 18-22 weeks of age. I didn't because I want him to compete and hopefully breed from, if I fused his hips I would never have a score to know if i could have bred from him. He is getting his hips scored in the next 2 mths to hopefully find out that I did the right thing.

I can only imagine what joe smith make of this when being told all these things from qualified people, who I am sure are both wrong the vets on his knee and the specialist on his hips. And yes both blamed the breeder for the um "problem".

Knowing this I understand it is not black and white when it comes to health.

I suppose what I really wanna know is where do you say yes I sold you a health effected dog that is my problem, to No the puppy when It left this house was in perfect 'foreseeable' health and that it is not my responsibility.?

Edited December 4, 2011 by Angeluca

[Blonde_Phoenix]

In an ideal world I'd like to think you and the breeder can come to some mutually satisfactory agreement. As they have entrusted you with one of their pups to breed from, the relationship should be strong and open. Hopefully there is some innocent reason why the breeder has not been back in contact with you. If not I think you are just going to have to write it off as a learning experience.

I can see why breeders are sometimes between a rock and a hard place though. My breeder told me a story about another breeder in our breed who had an owner contact her about her dog who was suffering HD. This breeder provided a replacement pup free of charge only to find out later there were videos on the internet of the dog with HD leaping off ledges over 1m high as a young pup under six months of age (not generally consider good practice for a large, heavy breed puppy). So I can see why a breeder might be a little hesitant when it comes to problems with genetic/environmental aspects.

I think you are doing the right thing but it must be heartbreaking.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Blonde_Phoenix

[sandgrubber]

For the record, luxating patella is not autosomal, in the sense of autosomal dominant or autosomal recessive. As others have correctly pointed out, the mode of inheritance is unknown. It is likely to be polygenetic.

I've been on the other side of this one. I sold a Labrador pup (as a pet) to someone. It eventually needed patella surgery. Although luxating patella is known in Labradors (I think OFA gives prevalence of 6%), it is not a commonly recognized problem in the breed and it is not something that Lab people commonly test for. The puppy owners were nice about it and I ended out paying half the vet costs. I didn't feel obliged, as it's unrealistic to expect

I have had only one pup, in over 100, who had this problem. It can seemingly come out of nowhere, and there is nothing I could have done to prevent the problem. Thus, while I was free to take responsibility, I felt innocent of blame.

[Angeluca]

To the OP, I have to thank you for sharing this experience and opening the thread it has been an eye opener as is for what is to come and getting a few opinions on lingering questions.

I really feel for you, as it is truly an awful set back to your program and a heartbreaking decision to let her go. And hope everything goes well and you find the perfect home for her to ease the pain a little. Goodluck.

[sandgrubber]

I don't think there's a single answer to this question.

Morally, we should hold ourselves to the same standard as we hold others. If I expect a breeder to compensate me for a genetic defect for which mode of inheritance is unknown, and which was unexpected given the pedigree, then I must in turn be ready to compensate those to whom I sell pups who turn out to have similar defects.

At least that's how I understand right and wrong.

[Angeluca]

I don't think there's a single answer to this question.

Morally, we should hold ourselves to the same standard as we hold others. If I expect a breeder to compensate me for a genetic defect for which mode of inheritance is unknown, and which was unexpected given the pedigree, then I must in turn be ready to compensate those to whom I sell pups who turn out to have similar defects.

At least that's how I understand right and wrong.

this was my thinking, but of course there's those out there who can't help but to scam, So I suppose that's when scrutiny and selection will have to come in.

As health is our argument and suppose to separate us from bb, as there are many BB who care for there dogs. If people still have a lottery when it comes to a pup then they are going to think spending that few hundred less would have been best.

90% of the people i know won't buy a pedigree pup. There are to many horror stories (the few that get hyped up like mad or the ones they hear on TV) associated with pedigrees that 60% of that group say it is because of the health problems. The others fall into 2 main groups of won't pay more then $200 for a dog (most of which get dumped or run away) some of the time this is a rescue or pound dog or will get one of those giveaway/ cheap pups off a notice board the others like the SWFs which are mostly crosses that can cost almost as much a the same as a pedigree of one of the breeds.

The only up side is none of the people I know and who I've ask for curiosity, will go to a petshop it's a little hope.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Angeluca

[Steve]

As has already been noted in this thread this particular issue is almost impossible for a breeder to avoid. Depending on which science tree you go with one or more of many things can impact .

Some big name Canine nutritionists believe its about minerals and enzymes and vitamins some even include looking at the bitches diet and the pup's grand mothers diet others believe its about immunity.

The reality is that dogs are living beings and it doesnt matter how hard a breeder tries there will always be the potential for things to turn up. To put it in perspective,

Part of the problem here is that you purchased your pup with certain expectations and made assumptions which the breeder probably had no idea of. If they had they could have explained to you what would happen if your dog developed something like this. When you get the diagnosis you are emotional, looking for someone or something to blame and coping with your disappointment and when the breeder hears he news they are hit upside the head and never expected this and have no planned reaction either.

I guess the question is what do you expect from the breeder now this has happened/

I had to deal with a complaint recently - Breeder had sold a pup 4 years ago and recently it had developed an eye problem which the owner said the vet told them was caused by a genetic condition.

The owner had gone back to the breeder who paid 50 % of the original purchase price.

The owner complained because "the fact the breeder had only paid half of the purchase price was evidence they didnt care"

So I went through the steps to investigate the complaint and requested a written vet report to tell me the condition was genetic.

The owner came back to me and told me the vet had "changed their mind" and was now denying saying it was a genetic condition.

The problem was that on the breeders website it said they would guarantee against any genetic conditions devoloping in the dog for its entire life. Pretty brave - But there was no detail about the required steps or what was or was not included .The buyer assumes it means what it says but in reality its a mine field.

As soon as a breeder hears the news their first rection is to take a long look at why this happened - is it something they did or perhaps the dog has been fed a crap diet or been over fed, raced around and fallen in rabbit holes etc

The buyer is ticked off - you promised that the dog wouldn't get this and that if it did you would do ---- What? Then they think that to try to get out of doing what you promised you blame them when all along you said it would be your fault if that happened because you guaranteed against it.

Then what - who pays for a second opinion, do you replace or refund or pay for repairs, do you ask they return the dog or that it has to see your vet for the second opinion, who pays for transport for the dog to come home etc , is there a time frame? If the dog was purchased fro breeding and now cant be used for breeding is there a different guarantee and does the breeder or the owner get to decide what eliminates it from being able to be bred?

Clearly in this case the buyer has a different concept and expectaion to what will happen from the breeder - which can be eliminated if everyone assumes the other person needs to have everything spelled out before the pup is sold.

All of my pups go home with an insurance policy and anything Im not aware of or which hasnt been picked up by my vet at the vet exam is covered and that really does answer the question. The breeder can only sell a dog which they believe at the time of sale has every chance of being ft for the purpose for which it is purchased . If the breeder wants to add a further guarantee it needs to be articulated and put in writing.

[Steve]

Ill also ad this story because its a recent one.

I sent home a maremma pup to its new owner, Id been educating them on the breed for about 6 weeks and they came here to pick it up and stayed for about 3 hours with more info being given.

2 weeks later - pup is now 10 weeks old I get a phone call to tell me there is something wrong with the pup's joints - he has had a second opinion and the vet wants to Xray ALL of the pups joints .

i look back on this an ask if my reaction was one which showed enough concern and compassion but I was feeling gob smacked and Im not sure it was.

Anyway it turned out the pup had been taken to an off leash area and played with much bigger dogs - "wrestled and got skittled a bit but he had the time of his life and limped a bit for a couple of hours.

" - remember this is a Maremma pup and only 10 weeks old. Usually at this age we lock them into very small areas and they have very limited exercise until they are around 5 months old due to the bonding process.

Anyway the big complaint was that he couldnt get up onto the couch which the owner and the vets were convinced was because he has something wrong with his joints.

I was very nice and explained that no Maremma pup at that age would be expected to be able to get up onto a couch of this height and most breeders dont even want them climbing stairs!!!! Maremmas dont normally jump at all - they are not like labs etc.

But the owner had mates who had dogs around the same size as this pup and they could get up onto the couch.He had been around dogs a fair bit and he knew what was normal and this pup wasnt normal. I have sold him a dud.

Not much I can do they have decided to get all of the pup's joints Xrayed - insurance will cover it . If there is something wrong I will compensate because the pup is so young and it so soon after going home. All came back clear but Im not sure my reaction to it all fitted the expectation.

[Roseclipt]

If you have a look around on the OFA site, you can download a form for Putnam scoring, which is about the only test available for LP. Your Vet. then fills in the score sheet, and it is then a relatively easy step to have it recorded and certified by the OFA, and a certificate issued. I usually prefer to have two different and experienced Vets. check the patellas, just in case. This is obviously not perfect, but is the only way available currently, AFAIK.

On a slightly different note, I once sold a show potential puppy to another breeder (silly me). The puppy went lame a couple of months later, the other breeder took it to their Vet. (who was supposedly an expert), and was told the pup had shocking HD. Thinking that was strange as generations of ours had been scored, I arranged to take him to my own Vet. - he actually had a broken toe on his hind foot, and had excellent hips. Moral is: not all Vets. are created equal ....

[mita]

To the OP, I have to thank you for sharing this experience and opening the thread it has been an eye opener as is for what is to come and getting a few opinions on lingering questions.

I really feel for you, as it is truly an awful set back to your program and a heartbreaking decision to let her go. And hope everything goes well and you find the perfect home for her to ease the pain a little. Goodluck.

I totally agree with these sentiments. I've returned to this thread & have found more interesting & v. useful posts.

DOL at its best, when fair opinion, experience and knowledge are traded, civilly....as well as understanding the OP's predicament.

And people care that a little dog gets a good home.

[Blonde_Phoenix]

To the OP, I have to thank you for sharing this experience and opening the thread it has been an eye opener as is for what is to come and getting a few opinions on lingering questions.

I really feel for you, as it is truly an awful set back to your program and a heartbreaking decision to let her go. And hope everything goes well and you find the perfect home for her to ease the pain a little. Goodluck.

I totally agree with these sentiments. I've returned to this thread & have found more interesting & v. useful posts.

DOL at its best, when fair opinion, experience and knowledge are traded, civilly....as well as understanding the OP's predicament.

And people care that a little dog gets a good home.

x2