What Would You Expect/do In This Situation

[Topoftheheap]

We bought a dog that is now just over one for breeding/showing purposes. It was made clear to the breeder that we were looking for a bitch of show quality to add to our breeding programme and were looking for an exceptional conformation.

It has now turned out that the dog has a known genetic fault with her patellas, and has had to been not only pulled from the show ring, but of course from our breeding programme. We are a small breeder, and it has put our plans back years, and is a huge disappointment.

Im just wondering to all the breeders out there, what would you do in this situation. We have contacted the bitch's breeder and her only response was that she will watch her litter sister that she has kept for any signs of the problem. We have not heard from her since.

If you were a puppy purchaser what would you expect the norm would be?

We're just a little taken aback by the breeders response, but are not sure if it is a normal response or not. We have also noticed the same breeder recently had puppies for sale from a repeat mating of the dogs that produced our dog, and they were mated after she was contacted. She also has plans to use the same parents in her future breeding as well.

So What would you expect as a purchaser in this situation

and as a breeder what would you do?

[Esky the husky]

As a purchaser I would probably avoid getting another pup from this breeder.

I would do as you did as well and not breed from said pup.

I probably wouldn't expect any more from breeders- if I was satisfied with the testing that was done then I probably just got unlucky with the pup I got.

Sounds like a tough situation though, I'm sorry to read about your predicament

Edited December 3, 2011 by Esky the husky

[WreckitWhippet]

As a breeder I'd be seeking an opinion from a vet of my choice and then I'd go from there. I'd probably request that you spey the bitch and I'd replace it.

[freundhund]

Firstly, do you have a contract with the breeder? If you do have a contract does it state that you brought the bitch for show and breeding purposes?

Secondly do you have a breed club? If you have a breed club, does it have a register for this condition? Is this a condition that the parents should have had certificates stating they are free of the condition?

Is this a genetic condition that can go or is able to go on to the ANKC hereditary conditions list?

[Fordogs]

First of all did you check that the parents of your puppy were checked for all genetic conditions required before you bought it?

May I ask what the problem with your puppy is?

Many genetic conditions need to be checked prior to breeding, does your puppy have one of those?

[Souff]

We bought a dog that is now just over one for breeding/showing purposes. It was made clear to the breeder that we were looking for a bitch of show quality to add to our breeding programme and were looking for an exceptional conformation.

It has now turned out that the dog has a known genetic fault with her patellas, and has had to been not only pulled from the show ring, but of course from our breeding programme. We are a small breeder, and it has put our plans back years, and is a huge disappointment.

Im just wondering to all the breeders out there, what would you do in this situation. We have contacted the bitch's breeder and her only response was that she will watch her litter sister that she has kept for any signs of the problem. We have not heard from her since.

If you were a puppy purchaser what would you expect the norm would be?

Mandimoore, just a heads up for next time, and for others who may not know.

A good vet can pick wonky patellas at the age of 6 weeks.

If the breeder isn't checking for this, then as a buyer you can be asking for the patellas to be checked - before you hand over the final payment. Offer to pay for the vet check if the breeder is unwilling.

If they don't accept that offer, find another breeder.

Souff

[Vacuna]

We bought a dog that is now just over one for breeding/showing purposes. It was made clear to the breeder that we were looking for a bitch of show quality to add to our breeding programme and were looking for an exceptional conformation.

It has now turned out that the dog has a known genetic fault with her patellas, and has had to been not only pulled from the show ring, but of course from our breeding programme. We are a small breeder, and it has put our plans back years, and is a huge disappointment.

Im just wondering to all the breeders out there, what would you do in this situation. We have contacted the bitch's breeder and her only response was that she will watch her litter sister that she has kept for any signs of the problem. We have not heard from her since.

If you were a puppy purchaser what would you expect the norm would be?

We're just a little taken aback by the breeders response, but are not sure if it is a normal response or not. We have also noticed the same breeder recently had puppies for sale from a repeat mating of the dogs that produced our dog, and they were mated after she was contacted. She also has plans to use the same parents in her future breeding as well.

So What would you expect as a purchaser in this situation

and as a breeder what would you do?

I do understand where you are coming from as we had a very similar experience earlier this year. We didn't have a formal contract just an email confirming her sale as a show bitch with conditions etc. After a couple of phone calls and emails we haven't heard back from the breeder. I have since heard we aren't the only ones to have experienced problems. I have decided to forget about it, desex her and see if I can find her a good pet home as with council regulations as they are if I want to continue showing I can't afford to keep collecting dogs.

One thing it has taught me is not to trust anyone - regardless and I think this is a very sad state of affairs for the dog world.

[Sandra777]

Patellas can be checked at a very early age, was this done?

If the bitch was sold as show quality then you SHOULD have run away, very fast! No one can promise show quality in a puppy - show potential yep.

Are luxating patellas known to be a common/wide spread fault in your breed? In some breeds they're quite rare and if someone ends up with a pup with bad patellas this is really just a matter of bad luck, but in a breed where it's pretty common then there should be certificates and testing involved for parents and puppies.

If I had sold a bitch to someone for them to either start or progress their kennels, if ahe turned out to be unsuitable I would replace her, but only after I had received a vet's desexing certificate and some sort of specialist's certificate if it was for a medical condition that she was unsuitable

[Topoftheheap]

Patellas can be checked at a very early age, was this done?

If the bitch was sold as show quality then you SHOULD have run away, very fast! No one can promise show quality in a puppy - show potential yep.

Are luxating patellas known to be a common/wide spread fault in your breed? In some breeds they're quite rare and if someone ends up with a pup with bad patellas this is really just a matter of bad luck, but in a breed where it's pretty common then there should be certificates and testing involved for parents and puppies.

If I had sold a bitch to someone for them to either start or progress their kennels, if ahe turned out to be unsuitable I would replace her, but only after I had received a vet's desexing certificate and some sort of specialist's certificate if it was for a medical condition that she was unsuitable

Sorry for using the wrong terminolgy, of course it was 'show potential'!!!

[Topoftheheap]

First of all did you check that the parents of your puppy were checked for all genetic conditions required before you bought it?

May I ask what the problem with your puppy is?

Many genetic conditions need to be checked prior to breeding, does your puppy have one of those?

She has a luxating patella, and yes we did check that the parents had no known genetic fault, however, we only have the breeders word on this, as there is no testing for carriers of the fault.

[Topoftheheap]

We bought a dog that is now just over one for breeding/showing purposes. It was made clear to the breeder that we were looking for a bitch of show quality to add to our breeding programme and were looking for an exceptional conformation.

It has now turned out that the dog has a known genetic fault with her patellas, and has had to been not only pulled from the show ring, but of course from our breeding programme. We are a small breeder, and it has put our plans back years, and is a huge disappointment.

Im just wondering to all the breeders out there, what would you do in this situation. We have contacted the bitch's breeder and her only response was that she will watch her litter sister that she has kept for any signs of the problem. We have not heard from her since.

If you were a puppy purchaser what would you expect the norm would be?

Mandimoore, just a heads up for next time, and for others who may not know.

A good vet can pick wonky patellas at the age of 6 weeks.

If the breeder isn't checking for this, then as a buyer you can be asking for the patellas to be checked - before you hand over the final payment. Offer to pay for the vet check if the breeder is unwilling.

If they don't accept that offer, find another breeder.

Souff

We had her checked a couple of times when she was younger for patellas, as we noticed she seemed to be crabbing alot and running downhill. However the three vets that we took her to as a pup assured us it was growing pains (we had our suspicions, and were reassured by the breeder at that time that her older dogs all did that as little ones and grew fine structually as they developed. There is no definate test for patellas, except for a vet being able to manipulate the joint and on all three occassions the joint was weak, however, did not displace from the groove. And unfortunately there is no genetic check for patellas that picks up carriers of the fault. So it is really hard. Basically you have to take the breeders word for it in situations like this, which has taught me not to trust ANYONE when it comes to dogs. In reality it is really hard to trace back genetic faults in lines of breeds that do not have the mandatory testing for the parents (such as HD with the scoring)

[Topoftheheap]

We bought a dog that is now just over one for breeding/showing purposes. It was made clear to the breeder that we were looking for a bitch of show quality to add to our breeding programme and were looking for an exceptional conformation.

It has now turned out that the dog has a known genetic fault with her patellas, and has had to been not only pulled from the show ring, but of course from our breeding programme. We are a small breeder, and it has put our plans back years, and is a huge disappointment.

Im just wondering to all the breeders out there, what would you do in this situation. We have contacted the bitch's breeder and her only response was that she will watch her litter sister that she has kept for any signs of the problem. We have not heard from her since.

If you were a puppy purchaser what would you expect the norm would be?

We're just a little taken aback by the breeders response, but are not sure if it is a normal response or not. We have also noticed the same breeder recently had puppies for sale from a repeat mating of the dogs that produced our dog, and they were mated after she was contacted. She also has plans to use the same parents in her future breeding as well.

So What would you expect as a purchaser in this situation

and as a breeder what would you do?

I do understand where you are coming from as we had a very similar experience earlier this year. We didn't have a formal contract just an email confirming her sale as a show bitch with conditions etc. After a couple of phone calls and emails we haven't heard back from the breeder. I have since heard we aren't the only ones to have experienced problems. I have decided to forget about it, desex her and see if I can find her a good pet home as with council regulations as they are if I want to continue showing I can't afford to keep collecting dogs.

One thing it has taught me is not to trust anyone - regardless and I think this is a very sad state of affairs for the dog world.

Very similar situation we are in, we are about to have her surgery and have her desexed, but we are heartbroken that someone could do this and not even reply to our second email back after us telling her. We are considering rehoming her as we too are in a position that we can't keep collecting dogs either. Which is really hard because she has such a beautiful temperament, and her conformation except for her knees is exceptional. She is such a beautiful animal, and im a bit peeved to be put into this situation in the first place.

[Topoftheheap]

Just to answer the questions,

She was sold as 'show potential' - not show quality as i mistakenly said, but the breeder was fully aware of our plans for her. Obviously being involved in showing, there are so many things that can go wrong with an animal, i understand that absolutely no guarantees are available that a pup will turn into a dog worthy of breeding and showing, and that so so much can go wrong. BUT, she has a genetic fault that is autosomal, which means that even though the exact mode of inheritance is not known, the breeder has to have had a dog in thier lines recently that is throwing the defect. She is not a new breeder, has been breeding for at least ten years, and has all the dogs that she has bred from on her website so she clearly knows the dogs that she is breeding.

We did ask her about genetic testing and she assured us that she has no such problems in her lines, and provided us with some evidence of some of the tests. However, there is no test in Australia for patellas, and although it is a common problem in my breed, there is no register with the AKNC, nor is there mandatory reporting/testing for patella luxation. I also know that the luxation can be caused by a trauma, but the vet that finally diagnosed the problem informs us that as it is in both knees it is highly unlikely, and it is definately a hereditary fault. Research has confirmed this.

We also had her seen by a vet shortly after arriving at our house - 13 weeks old - and there was no fault found. At 8 months we took her to the vet again as we were concerned about her movement in the ring - crabbing, and at times she looked as though she was running down hill. Growing Pains. Another vet told us it was the way we held the lead. The only test for patellas is the ability of the vet to be able to manipulate the joint out of the socket, and on all occasions the vets said the joint was weak, but definately not luxating and they believed as she matured she would grow out of it. We withdrew her from the ring, and paitently waited for her to grow so she would move properly. Things only got worse, she began hopping, and now we are at the point I described above.

We do not have a 'contract' with the breeder, just simply an emailed agreement between us, and of course her word. Stupid me, I will never buy a puppy ever again without a locked in, legal, solid contract.

We contacted the breeder when we noticed the poor movement in the ring and we were told that all her older dogs did that when they were young, and they all grew out of it. (compounding the diagnosises the vets had given us) So despite our concerns and our suspicions I suppose in a way it is our fault for not acting on our instinct that something is not right we crossed our fingers/held our breath/ loved the little thing to bits and hoped that it would all be ok. That may be naive (despite the fact that my family have been involved in breeding/showing for over 30 years) but we trusted the breeder to tell us the truth, and the system.

Im not going to take any action over this towards the breeder, nor am I going to cause trouble for her and publicize who she is, but I am disappointed that she has acted the way she has, and was just wondering if you were in the position she is in as a breeder what you would do.

Our plans for the dog in its immediate future is to have her desexed, have her $3000 surgery to fix the joints, which may or may not be successful, and may need further surgery in the future, and then who knows. We think we should try and find her a pet home, as we are not in a position to collect dogs (although I really wish I was!!!!) but then I don't know if the emotional attachment that i feel can be broken. She is a beautifully temperamented girl, who loves us dearly!!!!! I suppose with the lottery that puppies can be Im not unhappy that she has turned out not to be a show quality dog, that happens, but rather the reaction of the breeder. After saying she will keep an eye out for it, we have heard zip, zippo, zero! I mean NOTHING.

[dancinbcs]

In some breeds luxating patella can be picked up as early as 6 weeks and if the the patella is sitting well and ligaments are tight at that age there is usually no problem later. Apparently in some of the smaller toy breeds though, it can develop as they grow. Someone on here that has a lot of experience with it in toys mentioned this some time ago.

Like HD, it is a polygenetic inherited condition so parents that are perfect can have affected offspring. There also doesn't need to be an affected dog in the known pedigree for the genes that cause it to fall into line and create a case. In most toy breeds there are probably affected dogs, somewhere way back on the pedigree before anyone ever started to worry about the problem but breeders today would have no idea where. If the breeder is getting her dogs checked by a competant vet and not breeding with any affected dogs then they are doing all they can to avoid the problem but it can still happen despite their best efforts. If you buy any small breed there is always a risk of patella luxation and it is the risk you take. If you intend to breed small dogs, you also need to be prepared for the fact that it might happen in anything you breed. HD can occur in a puppy with 4 complete generations of great hips behind it, so can LP. this is not somehting that has a simple genetic test that allows you avoid it.

The other point is that quite a few dogs have been diagnosed with luxating patella, when in fact the dog has an injury to the stifle joint that has caused the patella to dislodge. If the vet is not very experienced with the condition I would be seeking a second opinion before any treatment. Many vets just jump to the logical diagnosis if it is known to be a breed problem and sometimes even when it isn't seen in that breed.

[Angeluca]

I was under the impression that when it came to genetic faults, the breeder of pedigrees pet or show was at least half liable for costs or replacement at breeders discretion. That at worst case they ask for documented proof of a vet stating it was genetic. And the whole point why we are trying to get the general public to buy from us, is that everything possible has been done to provide them with a genetically sound dog whether it be pet or show.

A number of breeders I've dealt with is the past have shown this to be the case and when I start my kennel, I had every intention on following that path.

Isn't it part being an ethical breeder to do so.

I had a friend the other day state that this is exactly why they refuse to buy pedigree papered dogs, so much money spent on a dog for when it goes wrong and it is the breeding at fault the breeder wants nothing to do with you.

Please correct me if I am wrong, As I will continue to provide this when I start but lower my expectations of fellow breeders.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Angeluca

[~*Shell*~]

If you don't have a contract, I'm pretty sure the breeder isn't legally obliged to do anything. It's sad that she has been diagnosed with it and depending on your relationship with the breeder, it's possible that they could offer you something (money towards the surgery, another puppy etc) but they don't have to. If it hasn't shown up in any of her siblings, she might be the exception, not the rule. I heard recently of a dog with HD - it's not in any dog in her lines (all are hip scored) though it is a known problem in the breed and it's just unfortunate that she has it.

[espinay]

I am sorry that you have had such a disappointment. I have had a few myself over the years and know how it feels. But (based on what you have said) I wouldn't be too quick to get into a blame game with the breeder here.

You were sold a pup that was 'show potential' - that does not guarantee the pup will be show or breeding quality - it just means it has a good chance of being such. there are LOTS of things that can happen as a pup grows that can mean the pup doesn't turn out as you hoped. That is the risk you take with a pup. I don't think there is a breeder alive who hasn't had a 'show potential' pup not live up to its potential at one time or another.

You say that you pup showed no signs of patella luxation on palpation until now. Therefore the pup was not showing signs when she was sold to you and not for a good amount of time (over a year?) afterwards. The breeder therefore did not sell you a pup that was known to be 'defective' at the time of sale.

From what you have said, the breeders dogs are not showing signs of luxating patella. This may in fact have been the first time the issue has arisen for the breeder? They advise they are keeping an eye on siblings to see if others develop the issue, which IMO is a sensible approach at this point. She may be looking at her breeding program too to see if there are any other indications of an issue (but they may not necessarily be talking about that). Maybe they have not found any other issues at this point? We don't know as we have not heard the breeders side of the story.

You are right that there is no formal testing arrangement for luxating patella at this point. Testing is done via palpation by the vet and there is still a grading system set out for them to use. It would be nice if there was more formal testing, but at the moment that is what we have. The difference between formal testing and the current system BTW, is just a piece of paper. They would still use the same method to assess them.

I wouldn't use crabbing as a sign of patella problems necessarily.

Crabbing is something you may see in growing dogs. Their leg length and body length don't always match up as they are growing. Young dogs can often be 'bum high' for a while off and on as they develop. You need to give them time to develop before you have a 'finished product'. Sometimes with growing dogs you feel like you want to stick them in a cupboard for a few months and not look at them they are so 'fugley' I know a lot of breeders who won't look at their dogs until they are about 2 and have done most of their growing. Crabbing can also be caused by the lead/collar (this is quite common and you can see it quite frequently at shows). Sometimes a dog will 'drag' on a tight lead causing it to lean out at the shoulder and crab. Sometimes a handler does not do their dog any favours ;) .

I would be getting an orthopaedic specialist to look at your bitch before I did anything further. Some vets are not that good at diagnosis and some vets over diagnose. It sounds like this pup has had its patellas pushed and pulled around by vets a few time, and it is only this last vet that has found anything. What grade did he say they were?

Edited December 4, 2011 by espinay

[espinay2]

Whoops!! Yes the above is me

[mita]

Like HD, it is a polygenetic inherited condition so parents that are perfect can have affected offspring. There also doesn't need to be an affected dog in the known pedigree for the genes that cause it to fall into line and create a case. In most toy breeds there are probably affected dogs, somewhere way back on the pedigree before anyone ever started to worry about the problem but breeders today would have no idea where. If the breeder is getting her dogs checked by a competant vet and not breeding with any affected dogs then they are doing all they can to avoid the problem but it can still happen despite their best efforts. If you buy any small breed there is always a risk of patella luxation and it is the risk you take. If you intend to breed small dogs, you also need to be prepared for the fact that it might happen in anything you breed. HD can occur in a puppy with 4 complete generations of great hips behind it, so can LP. this is not somehting that has a simple genetic test that allows you avoid it.

Excellent post. Very useful to compare LP with HD. With HD, it's not just a case of depth of pedigree (parent dogs, grandparents etc), but also width of pedigree (parent dogs', grandparent dogs' siblings). So you're right, LP is a problem that can happen despite best thought & effort by a breeder of small dogs.

Mandimoore, good on you for your caring attitude towards this little dog. I like the way you highlight the little one's lovely temperament and your wish that a good pet home can be found (with the issue of the LP to be discussed).

I've happily adopted (as a pet owner) a beautiful little dog with a glorious temperament....but with LP....from a breeder. And I treasure her.

ADDED: Espinay, I just read your post. Another excellent post that I found very informative & helpful.

Edited December 4, 2011 by mita

[Vacuna]

We bought a dog that is now just over one for breeding/showing purposes. It was made clear to the breeder that we were looking for a bitch of show quality to add to our breeding programme and were looking for an exceptional conformation.

It has now turned out that the dog has a known genetic fault with her patellas, and has had to been not only pulled from the show ring, but of course from our breeding programme. We are a small breeder, and it has put our plans back years, and is a huge disappointment.

Im just wondering to all the breeders out there, what would you do in this situation. We have contacted the bitch's breeder and her only response was that she will watch her litter sister that she has kept for any signs of the problem. We have not heard from her since.

If you were a puppy purchaser what would you expect the norm would be?

We're just a little taken aback by the breeders response, but are not sure if it is a normal response or not. We have also noticed the same breeder recently had puppies for sale from a repeat mating of the dogs that produced our dog, and they were mated after she was contacted. She also has plans to use the same parents in her future breeding as well.

So What would you expect as a purchaser in this situation

and as a breeder what would you do?

I do understand where you are coming from as we had a very similar experience earlier this year. We didn't have a formal contract just an email confirming her sale as a show bitch with conditions etc. After a couple of phone calls and emails we haven't heard back from the breeder. I have since heard we aren't the only ones to have experienced problems. I have decided to forget about it, desex her and see if I can find her a good pet home as with council regulations as they are if I want to continue showing I can't afford to keep collecting dogs.

One thing it has taught me is not to trust anyone - regardless and I think this is a very sad state of affairs for the dog world.

Very similar situation we are in, we are about to have her surgery and have her desexed, but we are heartbroken that someone could do this and not even reply to our second email back after us telling her. We are considering rehoming her as we too are in a position that we can't keep collecting dogs either. Which is really hard because she has such a beautiful temperament, and her conformation except for her knees is exceptional. She is such a beautiful animal, and im a bit peeved to be put into this situation in the first place.

Ditto Ditto !!