Service Certificate

[Greytmate]

Well I said I would not get mixed up in this topic, but here goes.

WHY does the owner of the stud HAVE to sign a service certificate if they are leasing the bitch?.

The bitch will be in their name and they are the ones responsible for registering the litter not the OP.

I would say most us that OWN the bitch and THE dog only sign the certificate when we go to register our pups.

Yes, if they are leasing the bitch, all registration paperwork to do with the litter is their repsonsibility, and not anything to do with the lessor.

There are good reasons to lease out a bitch some times. Leasing one out in this scenario is not really a good idea, as you lose control of what is happening to your own pet in your own home.

[Steve]

Millie if you have leased the bitch then what happens to paper work and what ever restrictions put on the pup etc is usually something you have no control over .Ordinarily you would never see a service certificate because its the property of the person who has responsibility for the bitch at the time - the person who has leased her.

The person who's name goes on the prefix which the bitch is bred under normally has total control of the bitch the litter and where the pups go etc.

these people may niot have considered discussing these things with you in the expectation that the bitch would be leased to them for this period and basically what happens isnt something you should be concerned about.

Again this is about you assuming things would happen in a certain way and they have assumed differently .It should have been discussed at length and written up so each of you knew what was going to happen.

Now you are mad at each other, you think he is wrong and changed the goal posts and is ripping you off, He assumed you would know. He thinks the same of you and believes you have changed the goal posts and want to interfer and control something which isnt your place to do.you assumed it would go one way and now it hasnt you are concerned. I dont think he's ripping you off I think he would be surprised that you are upset about it because he never would have anticipated that you would expect this to ever be in your possession.

Normally I would advise for the certificate to be signed on the day but in this case effectively the stud dog owner and the owner [ leasee] of the bitch are the same people - whole new ball game.

[Aziah]

From what I can gather the bitch hasn't been leased as yet?

[Mille]

My bitch is still in my name. She has not been leased, firstly because the dog owner failed to sign anything at all including the transfer of lease. He did not sign anything because, he said, he wanted to 'run it by his partner'. I wanted the documents signed but there was no argument or ill feeling when he left my property.

Yet 5 days AFTER THE MATING it was demanded that the entire litter be de-sexed except pick of litter, which they said, could not be decided for months (unspecified time). Only AFTER THE MATING the dog owner said he did not want anyone 'making a profit' from his prefix.

These people, the dog owner and his dog show partner, enjoyed the hospitality of my home, there was plenty of discussion about puppies, they knew I had plans for my share of litter, it followed I expected autonomy over my share of litter whether they leased my bitch or not.

There is a lot more I could add but suffice to say, I no longer trusted this person to hold a lease on my bitch and he refused to accept any service fee in lieu.

I offered to run on a short list of 3 puppies for 4 months rather than the whole litter for unspecified time. He subsequently agreed to having his pick of litter bred under another prefix as he was only precious about his prefix - not the puppies.

When my bitch's breeder kindly offered use of her prefix through a lease, he refused a 'third party involvement'. He said he only agreed to a litter in my name (albeit knowing I no longer had a current prefix).

In the circumstances, Dogs (Q) gave permission for a late application for my prefix. The dog owner was advised, invited to view my application and sign the service certificate....he did not reply.

I enjoyed a happy pick of litter arrangement years ago. Nothing like this. Having an unregistered litter seems the lesser of two evils.

[Mille]

Millie if you have leased the bitch then what happens to paper work and what ever restrictions put on the pup etc is usually something you have no control over .Ordinarily you would never see a service certificate because its the property of the person who has responsibility for the bitch at the time - the person who has leased her.

The person who's name goes on the prefix which the bitch is bred under normally has total control of the bitch the litter and where the pups go etc.

these people may niot have considered discussing these things with you in the expectation that the bitch would be leased to them for this period and basically what happens isnt something you should be concerned about.

Again this is about you assuming things would happen in a certain way and they have assumed differently .It should have been discussed at length and written up so each of you knew what was going to happen.

Now you are mad at each other, you think he is wrong and changed the goal posts and is ripping you off, He assumed you would know. He thinks the same of you and believes you have changed the goal posts and want to interfer and control something which isnt your place to do.you assumed it would go one way and now it hasnt you are concerned. I dont think he's ripping you off I think he would be surprised that you are upset about it because he never would have anticipated that you would expect this to ever be in your possession.

Normally I would advise for the certificate to be signed on the day but in this case effectively the stud dog owner and the owner [ leasee] of the bitch are the same people - whole new ball game.

My bitch was never to leave my keeping or my property, that is why he brought the dog to my property for the mating. I was to handle the whelping and litter, meet all costs and work. The dog owner said he did not want a percentage of sales but would pass on any enquiries he might get for puppies. He only wanted first pick of the litter. He said he had no experience with whelping a litter, whereas I have worked in a veterinary field that including a lot of dog work. I took that to mean he did not expect to handle the litter.

[Greytmate]

In the circumstances, Dogs (Q) gave permission for a late application for my prefix. The dog owner was advised, invited to view my application and sign the service certificate....he did not reply.

Hopefully Dogs Q can convince him that he must sign the certificate. Have you explained the current situation to them?

I would be taking everything into consideration right now and weighing up whether it is best to abort the pups rather than have to deal with this person any longer. I think you are lucky he never bothered to do the lease paperwork.

[Steve]

Millie if you have leased the bitch then what happens to paper work and what ever restrictions put on the pup etc is usually something you have no control over .Ordinarily you would never see a service certificate because its the property of the person who has responsibility for the bitch at the time - the person who has leased her.

The person who's name goes on the prefix which the bitch is bred under normally has total control of the bitch the litter and where the pups go etc.

these people may niot have considered discussing these things with you in the expectation that the bitch would be leased to them for this period and basically what happens isnt something you should be concerned about.

Again this is about you assuming things would happen in a certain way and they have assumed differently .It should have been discussed at length and written up so each of you knew what was going to happen.

Now you are mad at each other, you think he is wrong and changed the goal posts and is ripping you off, He assumed you would know. He thinks the same of you and believes you have changed the goal posts and want to interfer and control something which isnt your place to do.you assumed it would go one way and now it hasnt you are concerned. I dont think he's ripping you off I think he would be surprised that you are upset about it because he never would have anticipated that you would expect this to ever be in your possession.

Normally I would advise for the certificate to be signed on the day but in this case effectively the stud dog owner and the owner [ leasee] of the bitch are the same people - whole new ball game.

My bitch was never to leave my keeping or my property, that is why he brought the dog to my property for the mating. I was to handle the whelping and litter, meet all costs and work. The dog owner said he did not want a percentage of sales but would pass on any enquiries he might get for puppies. He only wanted first pick of the litter. He said he had no experience with whelping a litter, whereas I have worked in a veterinary field that including a lot of dog work. I took that to mean he did not expect to handle the litter.

Yes I understand that but not physically handling the litter and not calling the shots on what should happen to pups under his prefix is different..Again I say you both have different assumptions which has caused the problem.there is no reason what ever why he would have expected that you would require to see or hold the service certificate as it is he who is repsonsible for signing and placing it with the CC.

[Steve]

In the circumstances, Dogs (Q) gave permission for a late application for my prefix. The dog owner was advised, invited to view my application and sign the service certificate....he did not reply.

Hopefully Dogs Q can convince him that he must sign the certificate. Have you explained the current situation to them?

I would be taking everything into consideration right now and weighing up whether it is best to abort the pups rather than have to deal with this person any longer. I think you are lucky he never bothered to do the lease paperwork.

But the stud dog owner allowed the mating on the premise that the bitch would be leased even if the paper work wasnt done there was still a verbal contract.

[Mille]

In the circumstances, Dogs (Q) gave permission for a late application for my prefix. The dog owner was advised, invited to view my application and sign the service certificate....he did not reply.

Hopefully Dogs Q can convince him that he must sign the certificate. Have you explained the current situation to them?

I would be taking everything into consideration right now and weighing up whether it is best to abort the pups rather than have to deal with this person any longer. I think you are lucky he never bothered to do the lease paperwork.

I explained it to Dogs Q when asking for a late prefix application. I also sent it in writing to Dogs Q.

Aborting might only limit the number of puppies. She might still have one puppy also whippets are more susceptible to drugs than other breeds.

I do thank goodness I was not able to send the transfer of lease in, I would have sent it in if he had signed it.

[Mille]

In the circumstances, Dogs (Q) gave permission for a late application for my prefix. The dog owner was advised, invited to view my application and sign the service certificate....he did not reply.

Hopefully Dogs Q can convince him that he must sign the certificate. Have you explained the current situation to them?

I would be taking everything into consideration right now and weighing up whether it is best to abort the pups rather than have to deal with this person any longer. I think you are lucky he never bothered to do the lease paperwork.

But the stud dog owner allowed the mating on the premise that the bitch would be leased even if the paper work wasnt done there was still a verbal contract.

If the stud dog owner had honoured the VERBAL CONTRACT there would not be a problem. Also the original request for pick of litter did not stipulate leasing the bitch. It was decided later since his prefix is synonymous with whippets. I have it in writing that any lease was to be IN NAME ONLY.

[oakway]

Dear OP,

You agreed to lease the bitch to the owner of the stud dog.

If you had kept your original agreement it would have been their litter not yours and if they did not want the puppies sold without being de sexed it is their choice not yours.

It does not matter if the bitch says with you, if the bitch was leased it is what the owner of the bitch wants. The bitch becomes their property and what they say goes.

My best advice to you would be get the bitch aborted as soon as possible if she proves to be in whelp.

Under the circumstances now, if you want the service certificate signed you may find yourself with a very large 4 figure stud fee.

Also just to set the record straight I have NO idea who the parties are that are being refered to in this discussion and have no wish to.

[BJean]

Dear OP,

You agreed to lease the bitch to the owner of the stud dog.

If you had kept your original agreement it would have been their litter not yours and if they did not want the puppies sold without being de sexed it is their choice not yours.

It does not matter if the bitch says with you, if the bitch was leased it is what the owner of the bitch wants. The bitch becomes their property and what they say goes.

My best advice to you would be get the bitch aborted as soon as possible if she proves to be in whelp.

Under the circumstances now, if you want the service certificate signed you may find yourself with a very large 4 figure stud fee.

Also just to set the record straight I have NO idea who the parties are that are being refered to in this discussion and have no wish to.

Yep Millie I think you changed the scenario.

Almost a week after the mating I was told they would NOT allow anyone to own entire puppies under their famous prefix. They would NOT take their puppy at 8 weeks, they might need months to choose. When I objected I was offered a bag of dog food. I was to de-sex the rest of litter after they eventually chose their pick. I was told this is common practice with cat breeding (?!)

I refused to lease my bitch to them under the extra conditions. They said I could use another prefix if I would not de-sex the litter but they still wanted pick of litter.

They are not extra conditions, they are just how the home who is leasing the bitch wants the puppies to be homed

I was approached by stud dog people after a pick of litter mating to my bitch by their Gr.Ch.whippet dog. They explained they only wanted first pick of the litter, probably a female puppy.

I asked my bitch's breeder and we both thought it sounded OK. I had possible show homes for my share of litter. I told the stud people this.

My kennel prefix had expired as I had not bred dogs since late 70s. I agreed to lease my bitch so the stud people could use their own prefix.

Edited December 5, 2011 by lilli

[Mille]

Dear OP,

You agreed to lease the bitch to the owner of the stud dog.

If you had kept your original agreement it would have been their litter not yours and if they did not want the puppies sold without being de sexed it is their choice not yours.

It does not matter if the bitch says with you, if the bitch was leased it is what the owner of the bitch wants. The bitch becomes their property and what they say goes.

My best advice to you would be get the bitch aborted as soon as possible if she proves to be in whelp.

Under the circumstances now, if you want the service certificate signed you may find yourself with a very large 4 figure stud fee.

Also just to set the record straight I have NO idea who the parties are that are being refered to in this discussion and have no wish to.

If the dog owner presumed the whole litter would be his, why ask me for PICK OF LITTER?

[oakway]

Dear OP,

You agreed to lease the bitch to the owner of the stud dog.

If you had kept your original agreement it would have been their litter not yours and if they did not want the puppies sold without being de sexed it is their choice not yours.

It does not matter if the bitch says with you, if the bitch was leased it is what the owner of the bitch wants. The bitch becomes their property and what they say goes.

My best advice to you would be get the bitch aborted as soon as possible if she proves to be in whelp.

Under the circumstances now, if you want the service certificate signed you may find yourself with a very large 4 figure stud fee.

Also just to set the record straight I have NO idea who the parties are that are being refered to in this discussion and have no wish to.

If the dog owner presumed the whole litter would be his, why ask me for PICK OF LITTER?

Because thats all they wanted ONE puppy it appears as though they would have been happy to register all the other pups to you as long as you complyed with their wishes.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Thanks Greytmate, excellent point. They said the stud dog had been tested recently so maybe there is a possible fertility issue.

How old is the dog Mille? We have only ever tested one of our boys prior to a mating and that was because he was an older dog that had never been used at stud. He'd been in four homes prior to coming to us so we wanted to make sure he still had swimmers

The dog is 9 years old. They said they tested him in order to freeze sperm and he was ok for sperm count. I did ask about fertility because they originally wanted 3 matings over 3 days.

I guess stud dog progeny record is not open to public view like online studbook AQHA horses? I have been out of dog breeding since 1970s (might be still out of it). Thanks for your comments.

I tried to get information on stud dog's progeny through Dogs Vic but was advised that this information is no longer available due to the privacy laws now in force .

How annoying and illogical.

Somebody should take this up with them.

The privacy laws should cover people very strictly. But dogs should not be covered by privacy laws at all. All information on their achievements, hits and misses should be something available on the register for all to see, as it is conducive to breeding to improve the breed. Hiding information about dogs available at stud is harmful to a breed.

A dog is not going to be able to sue the registry for breach of privacy, and as long as there is no identifying details given about owner or address, there is no breach of anyone's privacy. How ridiculous that privacy laws should be abused in this way.

:rofl: :rofl: Privacy and litters are printed in the Gazette. :rofl:

[dancinbcs]

Dear OP,

You agreed to lease the bitch to the owner of the stud dog.

If you had kept your original agreement it would have been their litter not yours and if they did not want the puppies sold without being de sexed it is their choice not yours.

It does not matter if the bitch says with you, if the bitch was leased it is what the owner of the bitch wants. The bitch becomes their property and what they say goes.

My best advice to you would be get the bitch aborted as soon as possible if she proves to be in whelp.

Under the circumstances now, if you want the service certificate signed you may find yourself with a very large 4 figure stud fee.

Also just to set the record straight I have NO idea who the parties are that are being refered to in this discussion and have no wish to.

If the dog owner presumed the whole litter would be his, why ask me for PICK OF LITTER?

Because thats all they wanted ONE puppy it appears as though they would have been happy to register all the other pups to you as long as you complyed with their wishes.

Their wishes are completely unreasonable and I am sure that no one would lease them a bitch under those circumstances. It would have been different if they were prepared to take the bitch, pay all expenses, run the puppies on and do whatever they wanted with them. To expect the bitch owner to outlay all the money, do all the work, run puppies on (god knows why they can't pick at 8 weeks) just to eventually sell all the others as desexed pets, regardless of quality is ridiculous. If the litter was under their prefix they should get a say in which puppies are show quality and where they go, but they need to decide that at 8 weeks. Otherwise they should accept a stud fee and sign the service certificate with an agreement for the option to buy back a puppy.

Teh other two options are abort the litter or have an unregistered litter and make sure you advertise who the sire is and that the owner would not allow you to register the litter. See how they like what that will do to their precious prefix's reputation.

[WreckitWhippet]

Why do the picks need to be made by 8 weeks ? It's their litter, they have leased the bitch

[Steve]

Their wishes are completely unreasonable and I am sure that no one would lease them a bitch under those circumstances. It would have been different if they were prepared to take the bitch, pay all expenses, run the puppies on and do whatever they wanted with them. To expect the bitch owner to outlay all the money, do all the work, run puppies on (god knows why they can't pick at 8 weeks) just to eventually sell all the others as desexed pets, regardless of quality is ridiculous. If the litter was under their prefix they should get a say in which puppies are show quality and where they go, but they need to decide that at 8 weeks. Otherwise they should accept a stud fee and sign the service certificate with an agreement for the option to buy back a puppy.

Teh other two options are abort the litter or have an unregistered litter and make sure you advertise who the sire is and that the owner would not allow you to register the litter. See how they like what that will do to their precious prefix's reputation.

I agree , however, the agreement to lease the bitch has already been made and the mating has already been done. It appears though the SDO has agreed to allow Millie to use her own prefix which means she will need the service certificate but with no money changing hands the service certificate may not be handed to her until the pick pup has been chosen and in their possession. Signing the service certificate at time of mating and giving it to the bitch owner is two different things and still keeps the SDO within the regs.

Fact is some stud dog owners do have conditions in place for people who are using dogs at stud - most in my opinion are unreasonable because I believe that the only issue for the sdo should be whether they think the dog is suitable and that it is registered and so is the owner. If the bitch owner doesnt agree they simply dont use the dog at stud.Where this one has blown up is because the conditions were not discussed and agreed upon and signed off on before the mating took place.

These conditions - though unreasonable in my opinion, are probably quite the norm for the SDO and as the SDO they are entitled to place thiose conditions on. In all probability the reason these werent discussed pre mating is because they thought the dog would be leased to them and therefore it would be in their control anyway and not something which should concern or be approved by the owner. its only changed because the owner now doesnt want to lease the bitch but at the time of the mating she did.

[becks]

I am unclear on this, what was going to happen to the pups? The SDO gets pick and the bitch owner only gets to keep a desexed pet??

[Mille]

I don't know what anyone else would feel comfortable with, but I could not agree to lease my bitch without a written contract, agreed, signed by both parties, witnessed preferably by a JP. That is the reason the bitch is NOT LEASED to the SDO.

The dog people ASKED me to apply to have the litter in my own prefix. They pointed out a loophole between 2 Dog Q rules that would facilitate applying for a prefix after a mating. I have it in writing via email.

The dog people have just since emailed saying quote "the litter registration/service certificate can be signed by [dog owner] once you have completed it with puppy details etc. when registering the pups & he can do that when he comes up to look at the litter to choose his pup"

Apart from no specified time frame, they can withhold signing for any reason.