Service Certificate

[Mille]

If he's leasing your bitch, have you signed her over to him already? Sorry, you may have already said whether you have or not.

As owner of stud dogs here in our kennel, we do not sign stud service certificates until we have confirmation that a bitch is pregnant. Most times, in lieu of stud payment, we have pick puppy but this is an agreement that we make with the bitches owner prior to any matings. That's just how it goes for us.

It sounds like his demands and conditions changed AFTER the mating took place? If this is the case, do you have anything in writing from him as to what his terms originally were?

Thanks for reply. Demands were upped by phone AFTER the mating took place. Original basic details and normal requests are in writing via email. I took some experienced advice and hardcopied those emails.

The bitch is still in my name. The transfer of lease was part of the documentation he failed to sign before leaving my property. The other documentation was service certificate and terms agreement. He has not signed anything or offered any alternative in writing.

[idigadog]

Thanks for reply. Demands were upped by phone AFTER the mating took place. Original basic details and normal requests are in writing via email. I took some experienced advice and hardcopied those emails.

The bitch is still in my name. The transfer of lease was part of the documentation he failed to sign before leaving my property. The other documentation was service certificate and terms agreement. He has not signed anything or offered any alternative in writing.

How very weird How long ago did the mating take place? Maybe he's waiting to see if your bitch is pregnant before doing any paperwork? However, to increase demands AFTER the mating took place is bloody poor form and I would be very peeved. Hang onto your emails Mille because you might just need them!

[Mille]

Thanks for reply. Demands were upped by phone AFTER the mating took place. Original basic details and normal requests are in writing via email. I took some experienced advice and hardcopied those emails.

The bitch is still in my name. The transfer of lease was part of the documentation he failed to sign before leaving my property. The other documentation was service certificate and terms agreement. He has not signed anything or offered any alternative in writing.

How very weird How long ago did the mating take place? Maybe he's waiting to see if your bitch is pregnant before doing any paperwork? However, to increase demands AFTER the mating took place is bloody poor form and I would be very peeved. Hang onto your emails Mille because you might just need them!

Matings 22/23 November. No reply to request for signing anything is worrying in view of increased demands.

[Greytmate]

I agree with Souff, the service certificate is to certify that a service took place and should be signed straight away.

Those that wait to see if the bitch is in whelp, why wait? I would think it would be helpful to know if there are studs or bitches that are repeatedly not producing litters. If you are advertising a dog as a stud dog, people should be entitled to find out the dog's success rate.

It is dodgy to pretend a service didn't happen just because it wasn't successful.

[Mille]

I agree with Souff, the service certificate is to certify that a service took place and should be signed straight away.

Those that wait to see if the bitch is in whelp, why wait? I would think it would be helpful to know if there are studs or bitches that are repeatedly not producing litters. If you are advertising a dog as a stud dog, people should be entitled to find out the dog's success rate.

It is dodgy to pretend a service didn't happen just because it wasn't successful.

Thanks Greytmate, excellent point. They said the stud dog had been tested recently so maybe there is a possible fertility issue.

[idigadog]

I agree with Souff, the service certificate is to certify that a service took place and should be signed straight away.

Those that wait to see if the bitch is in whelp, why wait? I would think it would be helpful to know if there are studs or bitches that are repeatedly not producing litters. If you are advertising a dog as a stud dog, people should be entitled to find out the dog's success rate.

It is dodgy to pretend a service didn't happen just because it wasn't successful.

Why wait you ask? Well, from our point of view, the bitches who have been mated to our boys have belonged to friends of ours or those that we have known a long time through our sport. They always come here to our kennel with their bitches and not one of them has ever bought paperwork with them! Money does not exchange hands until the stud certificate is signed and I guess because they are people that we trust, and they trust us, it's never been an issue.

If it were someone that we didn't know who requested one of our dogs at stud, it would be a different story. Stud fee would be paid at time of service along with paperwork signed but I would want to make sure that the bitches name and all relevant details were filled out on the paperwork and that I took a copy.

Call me strange, but I have known of someone using a signed stud certificate, which was blank, to register a litter that took place later on down the track that did not involve the dog at all. I guess that's a worse case scenario but it's not something I would ever want to happen to us.

[idigadog]

Thanks Greytmate, excellent point. They said the stud dog had been tested recently so maybe there is a possible fertility issue.

How old is the dog Mille? We have only ever tested one of our boys prior to a mating and that was because he was an older dog that had never been used at stud. He'd been in four homes prior to coming to us so we wanted to make sure he still had swimmers

[Mille]

Thanks Greytmate, excellent point. They said the stud dog had been tested recently so maybe there is a possible fertility issue.

How old is the dog Mille? We have only ever tested one of our boys prior to a mating and that was because he was an older dog that had never been used at stud. He'd been in four homes prior to coming to us so we wanted to make sure he still had swimmers

The dog is 9 years old. They said they tested him in order to freeze sperm and he was ok for sperm count. I did ask about fertility because they originally wanted 3 matings over 3 days.

I guess stud dog progeny record is not open to public view like online studbook AQHA horses? I have been out of dog breeding since 1970s (might be still out of it). Thanks for your comments.

[Greytmate]

Why wait you ask? Well, from our point of view, the bitches who have been mated to our boys have belonged to friends of ours or those that we have known a long time through our sport. They always come here to our kennel with their bitches and not one of them has ever bought paperwork with them! Money does not exchange hands until the stud certificate is signed and I guess because they are people that we trust, and they trust us, it's never been an issue.

If it were someone that we didn't know who requested one of our dogs at stud, it would be a different story. Stud fee would be paid at time of service along with paperwork signed but I would want to make sure that the bitches name and all relevant details were filled out on the paperwork and that I took a copy.

Call me strange, but I have known of someone using a signed stud certificate, which was blank, to register a litter that took place later on down the track that did not involve the dog at all. I guess that's a worse case scenario but it's not something I would ever want to happen to us.

Signing a blank certificate is also dodgy. And you wouldn't allow your stud dog to mate with a bitch without knowing her details, because that would also be dodgy.

Millie, a sperm count test is measured in motility. I can't recall the exact details, but there is information you can get about what figure is viable and what is probably not viable. If you are in any doubt you could ask for the actual result of the test, rather than accept an assurance that it is ok. Might be too late to do that now. The priority is getting them to sign.

[Mille]

Why wait you ask? Well, from our point of view, the bitches who have been mated to our boys have belonged to friends of ours or those that we have known a long time through our sport. They always come here to our kennel with their bitches and not one of them has ever bought paperwork with them! Money does not exchange hands until the stud certificate is signed and I guess because they are people that we trust, and they trust us, it's never been an issue.

If it were someone that we didn't know who requested one of our dogs at stud, it would be a different story. Stud fee would be paid at time of service along with paperwork signed but I would want to make sure that the bitches name and all relevant details were filled out on the paperwork and that I took a copy.

Call me strange, but I have known of someone using a signed stud certificate, which was blank, to register a litter that took place later on down the track that did not involve the dog at all. I guess that's a worse case scenario but it's not something I would ever want to happen to us.

Signing a blank certificate is also dodgy. And you wouldn't allow your stud dog to mate with a bitch without knowing her details, because that would also be dodgy.

Millie, a sperm count test is measured in motility. I can't recall the exact details, but there is information you can get about what figure is viable and what is probably not viable. If you are in any doubt you could ask for the actual result of the test, rather than accept an assurance that it is ok. Might be too late to do that now. The priority is getting them to sign.

I will have her scanned after 28 days - do preg.scans on dogs show how many pups accurately?

[SwaY]

I will have her scanned after 28 days - do preg.scans on dogs show how many pups accurately?

No, they are good for confirming pregnancy but not numbers.

If you want to confirm numbers xray after 8 weeks - however this to can be wrong (I have had two done and both numbers were wrong)

[Vacuna]

Thanks Greytmate, excellent point. They said the stud dog had been tested recently so maybe there is a possible fertility issue.

How old is the dog Mille? We have only ever tested one of our boys prior to a mating and that was because he was an older dog that had never been used at stud. He'd been in four homes prior to coming to us so we wanted to make sure he still had swimmers

The dog is 9 years old. They said they tested him in order to freeze sperm and he was ok for sperm count. I did ask about fertility because they originally wanted 3 matings over 3 days.

I guess stud dog progeny record is not open to public view like online studbook AQHA horses? I have been out of dog breeding since 1970s (might be still out of it). Thanks for your comments.

I tried to get information on stud dog's progeny through Dogs Vic but was advised that this information is no longer available due to the privacy laws now in force .

[Greytmate]

Thanks Greytmate, excellent point. They said the stud dog had been tested recently so maybe there is a possible fertility issue.

How old is the dog Mille? We have only ever tested one of our boys prior to a mating and that was because he was an older dog that had never been used at stud. He'd been in four homes prior to coming to us so we wanted to make sure he still had swimmers

The dog is 9 years old. They said they tested him in order to freeze sperm and he was ok for sperm count. I did ask about fertility because they originally wanted 3 matings over 3 days.

I guess stud dog progeny record is not open to public view like online studbook AQHA horses? I have been out of dog breeding since 1970s (might be still out of it). Thanks for your comments.

I tried to get information on stud dog's progeny through Dogs Vic but was advised that this information is no longer available due to the privacy laws now in force .

How annoying and illogical.

Somebody should take this up with them.

The privacy laws should cover people very strictly. But dogs should not be covered by privacy laws at all. All information on their achievements, hits and misses should be something available on the register for all to see, as it is conducive to breeding to improve the breed. Hiding information about dogs available at stud is harmful to a breed.

A dog is not going to be able to sue the registry for breach of privacy, and as long as there is no identifying details given about owner or address, there is no breach of anyone's privacy. How ridiculous that privacy laws should be abused in this way.

[Tapua]

Scanning at 28 days will only give you a general idea of numbers - ie: yes definately there are pups there but it could be 5, 4 or 6. Or no there are definately no pups there.

Might be getting a bit off topic here but regarding reproduction

My understanding of dog reproduction is as follows - yes the boy has to have sound swimmers but the numbers of pups depends more on the bitch and where she is in her cycle. A bitch may for example release ovum on day 11/12 and accept a dog for mating on those days - but the ovum are not ready to recieve the sperm for another 2 days. Dogs sperm can last 5 days so if she can take a dog on say day 11 but it may be day 16 before some of the ovum are fertilised - so the bitch may whelp 63 days later but some of the litter may only be 58 days gestation.

So I like 2 - 3 matings in a 24 hrs period rather than as some people do mate on day 12 & 14 - that can IMO result in pups being 7 days behind in gestation at time of birth and a higher risk of death in pups. (IMO)

I could have it all arse up - but that is the theory I have read regarding reproduction in dogs.

[jr_inoz]

I agree with Souff, the service certificate is to certify that a service took place and should be signed straight away.

Those that wait to see if the bitch is in whelp, why wait? I would think it would be helpful to know if there are studs or bitches that are repeatedly not producing litters. If you are advertising a dog as a stud dog, people should be entitled to find out the dog's success rate.

It is dodgy to pretend a service didn't happen just because it wasn't successful.

Yep - cos I would imagine it would be frustrating, to find out after you have gone to the expense of shipping a bitch interstate to be mated to a stud dog, then have the bitch not fall pregant - and then find out that the said stud dog has not produced a single litter at all after numerous times used at stud.

That kind of information being available could save a breeder quite a bit of frustration, money and of course time...

[OSoSwift]

I would do it as formsd signed (fully filled out) and payment at time of service.

Then it would be a case of sorting out if there are returns if the bitch does not fall pregnant, what constitues a litter etc etc. Ir ecently ahd to start looking at this when I was approached about my boy being used at stud so I am still forming ideas but I live a fair distance from our captial so I think it all needs to be done and signed then and there then everyone knows where they stand.

I really hope you get it sorted, and the demands after the mating would really pee me off. Infact if someone got too contrary I would even consider aborting the litter rather then being held to ransom. I sincerely hope it never comes to that but people throwing their weight around really craps me off.

[Dracdog]

At what stage should the stud dog owner provide the bitch owner with a signed service certificate?

From the Dogs Qld Rule Book

Rule 36f. The application for registration is accompanied by a duly completed service certificate which must be signed at the time of stud by both parties.

[Mille]

At what stage should the stud dog owner provide the bitch owner with a signed service certificate?

From the Dogs Qld Rule Book

Rule 36f. The application for registration is accompanied by a duly completed service certificate which must be signed at the time of stud by both parties.

Thank you for that legality Dracdog. So if the date signed does not coincide with the service date, registration of litter probably denied.

In my case, where the stud dog owner would not sign anything, he has already waived his rights along with mine for a registered litter.

[Greytmate]

At what stage should the stud dog owner provide the bitch owner with a signed service certificate?

From the Dogs Qld Rule Book

Rule 36f. The application for registration is accompanied by a duly completed service certificate which must be signed at the time of stud by both parties.

Thank you for that legality Dracdog. So if the date signed does not coincide with the service date, registration of litter probably denied.

In my case, where the stud dog owner would not sign anything, he has already waived his rights along with mine for a registered litter.

You need to ask them about that. Denial of registration of a litter would be something everyone wants to avoid. There can be other penalties for failing to supply the correct paperwork at the correct time, and sometimes people just get away with things.

[oakway]

Well I said I would not get mixed up in this topic, but here goes.

WHY does the owner of the stud HAVE to sign a service certificate if they are leasing the bitch?.

The bitch will be in their name and they are the ones responsible for registering the litter not the OP.

I would say most us that OWN the bitch and THE dog only sign the certificate when we go to register our pups.