JS11 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 My 6 month old Japanese spitz puppy has had clicky hips recently and the vet said that her ligaments are way too flexible and put her on a crash diet (she is overweight, she doesn't look it but she's about 2 kilos heavier than she should be thanks to my partner allowing her to self feed while I was on holiday) along with telling us to keep her confined to a crate or on a lead at all times until fully grown -i.e. another 6 months. As you can imagine this is virtually impossible, she loves to run and jump. She got out of her harness in a friend's backyard a couple of days ago and was out there zooming around until I realised 20 minutes later. She is incredibly grumpy right now after 2 weeks of restriction. A few people have said I should get a second opinion (because being hungry and grumpy for months will cause behaviour problems) but her hips had stopped clicking before her harness escape, so I think it will probably work if I can get her to stick to it. Has anyone been in a simliar situation with a spitz? The vet said it could lead to dysplasia if she is left to her own devices, which is rare in Japanese Spitz's (Spitzen?) and obviously fairly awful so advice would be welcomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Hi Jess11 - HD is fairly rare in JS - to the point where most dogs used to breed are not scored. I would definitely get a 2nd opinion from a specialist. HD can only be properly diagnosed by taking an X-ray and sending the films to be read by an expert - you also need to find someone good to take the X-rays (you will find recommendations here on DOL) Which breeder did your JS come from? Have you contacted them about this? The ethical breeders I know would be very concerned to find one of their puppies with HD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) Sounds to me that you have a loose growing puppy, that's a bit gangly and doesn't quite fit together. It's a common age for many vets to put their hands on a pup and say it's got HD. You could see a specialist and have the hips xrayed or you could put the pup on a diet, until she reaches her ideal weight and continue with regular exercise and play, until she reaches maturity and then have her hips xrayed and read Edited November 30, 2011 by Pav Lova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Hi Jess11 - HD is fairly rare in JS - to the point where most dogs used to breed are not scored. I would definitely get a 2nd opinion from a specialist. HD can only be properly diagnosed by taking an X-ray and sending the films to be read by an expert - you also need to find someone good to take the X-rays (you will find recommendations here on DOL) How do you know how many suffer from HD if most dogs are not being scored?? You can't say they don't have it if people are not scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Sway - I say that from the perspective that as far as I know (and breeders I've talked to know) - no JS has displayed a HD-related problem (registered breeders). There are some that have been scored, but majority of breeders feel that since no dogs have come up with hip problems, there is no need for scoring. Same reason they don't test for PRA - no cases reported of any dogs going blind from PRA. The dogs I know that have been scored have come up 0:0 I believe. Also, the Cambridge Inherited Diseases in Dogs database doesn't list Jap Spitz as one of the breeds that genetically suffers from HD. (I don't know whether this database is comprehensive though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 jess11 - also, make sure you come visit us in the JS/Samoyed thread Lots of discussion about our white fluffies http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/221234-japanese-spitz-and-samoyed-thread/page__st__2790__gopid__5613338 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Sway - I say that from the perspective that as far as I know (and breeders I've talked to know) - no JS has displayed a HD-related problem (registered breeders). There are some that have been scored, but majority of breeders feel that since no dogs have come up with hip problems, there is no need for scoring. Same reason they don't test for PRA - no cases reported of any dogs going blind from PRA. The dogs I know that have been scored have come up 0:0 I believe. Also, the Cambridge Inherited Diseases in Dogs database doesn't list Jap Spitz as one of the breeds that genetically suffers from HD. (I don't know whether this database is comprehensive though) What I don't get is how breeders can say there is no problem if only a handful of dogs have been scored, How do they know the one they used last week doesn't have HD or the the puppy they sold 3 years ago? To me is makes sense to score everything you plan to breed with, Ideally score every pup in every litter, I know that it's just never going to happen thou. In my breed it's uncommon to score, more and more are starting to do it. I know testing won't cure all evil but it's a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 3 things effect HD - Genetics, Diet and Exercise. An overweight puppy puts strain on joints, ligaments and surrounding tissue - a big no no in any growing breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 What I don't get is how breeders can say there is no problem if only a handful of dogs have been scored, How do they know the one they used last week doesn't have HD or the the puppy they sold 3 years ago? To me is makes sense to score everything you plan to breed with, Ideally score every pup in every litter, I know that it's just never going to happen thou. In my breed it's uncommon to score, more and more are starting to do it. I know testing won't cure all evil but it's a start. Are puppies sedated for the HD test? (same as adult dogs?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 What I don't get is how breeders can say there is no problem if only a handful of dogs have been scored, How do they know the one they used last week doesn't have HD or the the puppy they sold 3 years ago? To me is makes sense to score everything you plan to breed with, Ideally score every pup in every litter, I know that it's just never going to happen thou. In my breed it's uncommon to score, more and more are starting to do it. I know testing won't cure all evil but it's a start. Are puppies sedated for the HD test? (same as adult dogs?) Sorry I should have said all puppies sold, be tested a Adults. Some vets sedate others do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) I am a big advocate of health testing, having been part of the sub-committee of the BC club for over 25 years that helped organise the development of DNA tests in our breed. BUT, there is certainly a point where health testing can be overdone. Testing is needed when dogs in a breed start to have problems. If they are going blind, you need to find out why and have screening tests developed. If dogs are becoming lame and moving strange than you need to look at hips and elbows. It is just overkill to test for all these things if no one in the breed is ever getting these problems in their dogs. Greyhounds are a perfect example. A Greyhound with HD cannot run so they simply do not exist in the gene pool. Despite their size there is no need to hip score racing Greyhounds. Apart from Greyhounds, HD and ED are very much related to the weight of the puppy at a critical stage of their development. Lighter breeds simply do not get heavy enough to create a problem unless they are grossly overweight and 2kg extra is grossly overweight for a 6 month old JS. Generally most breeds that mature under 15kgs are highly unlikely to have hip or elbow problems unless they are an abnormal shape, like the Bulldog breeds. For the majority of dogs in lighter breeds the risk of HD is so low that routine hip scoring is simply wasting money and risking dog's lives by having a GA. Yes dogs have died having their hips scored. Jess11, I would definitely get another opinion as most "pet" vets really have no idea. You need a vet with experience dealing with lots of breeders. Tell us where you are located and someone on here will be able to suggest an experienced vet or specialist. Oh, and get that weight down fast by cutting the food down and do on lead exercise and swimming to tighten the ligaments without straining the joints. Edited December 1, 2011 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 If she's frustrated by the diet and restriction, try adding low cal fillers to her food so she is a bit more settled. I'm not a doggy diet expert (having hounds we are normally putting weight on! ) but I think steamed mushy carrots or pumpkin can be useful. Someone who has dealt with crash diets may be able to confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 . Greyhounds are a perfect example. A Greyhound with HD cannot run so they simply do not exist in the gene pool. Despite their size there is no need to hip score racing Greyhounds. Apart from Greyhounds, HD and ED are very much related to the weight of the puppy at a critical stage of their development. I would disagree with this, plenty of greyhounds have been bred from that can't run, after all they are the 5th cousin twice removed from the current top dog! ;) Why they can't run is often not investigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Hi Jess sent you a PM about vet recommendation in WA and diet Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 If she's frustrated by the diet and restriction, try adding low cal fillers to her food so she is a bit more settled. I'm not a doggy diet expert (having hounds we are normally putting weight on! ) but I think steamed mushy carrots or pumpkin can be useful. Someone who has dealt with crash diets may be able to confirm. I second the steamed pumpkin - I used 2 tablespoons when I was trimming down Ziva at 4 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JS11 Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 Thanks for all of the advice, I live in WA and have had a couple of recommendations for a specialist, I think I will ring and see how long it takes to get an appointment and then organise one for 2 months time when there should be some improvement if it is diet/excersize related. She was xrayed by the vet and there is no actual bone damage yet (as far as he could tell, and they looked perfectly fine to me), he just said there would be if she didn't get the weight off and stop over doing it with jumping, walking on back legs and running as her ligaments(?) are way too long, allowing her hips to pop in and out. I did contact the breeder a couple of months ago as she was already 6 kilos at 4 months (from memory, not sure exactly) and I was worried. Her reply was that the other puppies in the litter were also that weight. Obviously getting the sinking feeling that I have paid a puppy farmer. Has anyone got some advice about encouraging your puppy to swim, we haven't had much luck so far, she will go into the estuary but she won't go so deep she has to swim. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Swimming - You need to walk in with her in your arms to a depth that she cannot stand up in, and then let her go, but obviously staying very close until she gets the hang of it. I would be doubtful about it being a hip problem personally, I would have suggested slipping patellas to be much more likely. Ask the vet to send the X-rays away to be scored. And get the weight off the puppy, and let her grow up and tighten up before you do anything! Puppies can be loose, it does not mean they will get HD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 You can also pick up a Ruffwear life jacket like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Big-Eddy-Float-Coat-Ruffwear-Small-NEW-FREE-SHIPPING-/180750479140?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a15916f24 6 kilos at 4 months is very heavy - mind you, some people still have old lines (where the size of JS is a lot bigger). But the breeder is right - no work on the hind legs, no running on concrete, no going up and down stairs. puppies love to be exuberant but sometimes we have to stop them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Thanks for all of the advice, I live in WA and have had a couple of recommendations for a specialist, I think I will ring and see how long it takes to get an appointment and then organise one for 2 months time when there should be some improvement if it is diet/excersize related. She was xrayed by the vet and there is no actual bone damage yet (as far as he could tell, and they looked perfectly fine to me), he just said there would be if she didn't get the weight off and stop over doing it with jumping, walking on back legs and running as her ligaments(?) are way too long, allowing her hips to pop in and out. I did contact the breeder a couple of months ago as she was already 6 kilos at 4 months (from memory, not sure exactly) and I was worried. Her reply was that the other puppies in the litter were also that weight. Obviously getting the sinking feeling that I have paid a puppy farmer. Has anyone got some advice about encouraging your puppy to swim, we haven't had much luck so far, she will go into the estuary but she won't go so deep she has to swim. Jess From that it sounds like she does not have HD but has stretched her hip ligaments with inappropriate exercise and excess weight. If it is not corrected she could end up with HD. Swimming and walking her in a harness will help with that. Encourage her to pull into the harness when walking. With the swimming, if you can find a dog pool, put her in a harness and drop her in over the edge where she can't get out. Walk around the pool holding a rope on the harness to direct her and keep her afloat until she gets the hang of it. Also supplement with Vit C, about a 250mg tablet a day or a pinch of Calcium Ascorbate powder. Vit C helps tighten ligaments. I had a BC bitch stretch her hip ligaments when she had her first litter because she never slowed down, running around like an idiot. Her hips where sitting a good cm out of the sockets on the x-ray. I swam her, walked her on a harness and confined her so she couldn't run flat out for 3 months and the hips were perfect on the next x-ray. Weight wise my new JS male show puppy is just on 4kg at 4 months, so your girl is big for a JS. They do vary in size but if the vet thinks she is 2kg overweight then that is serious and she needs to have her food drastically reduced. Is she desexed? If she was desexed in the last few months her metabolism may have slowed dramatically and she will need a lot less food than when she was growing and entire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 OT - but welcome to the JS world dancinbcs - hope you come see us and share pics in the Jap Spitz/Samoyed breed thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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