Fordogs Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) I have posted this in the Health / Nutrition / Grooming and it appears that no one is interested. Am I among the minority because I am concerned about the prevalence of vets that are advocating this surgery? I first posted about this on the 23rd March 2008 and at the time it received many hits and even today I still receive emails asking (a) about the surgery and (B) which veterinary practices are involved in advising puppy people to have the surgery on their puppies. I would first like all breeders to warn their puppy buyers about vets who are advising that puppies undergo this unnecessary surgery, some of these vets can be very persuasive making new puppy owners think that it is in the best interest for the life long health of their new puppy. What do other think, are they concerned, who here has been contacted by worried new puppy owners because vets have advised them to have the surgery on their new puppy? These days I warn all of my new owners to BEWARE of vets who offer this surgery and to contact me if their vet should even mention JPS surgery. Edited to change spelling on title (: Edited November 30, 2011 by Fordogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollipop Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I 100% share your concerns, Fordogs. One of the puppies from my last litter has had the operation and I wasn't told til until afterwards. They sent a photo of the puppy and I noticed it had been shaven around the rear and asked why. I will be including a warning document in my puppy packs if/when I breed again. The whole experience has put me off. Why bother to test your breeding dogs and use those with low scores when money hungry vets suck their clients into believing the only protection from HD is this procedure. Our NSW breed club has a motion on the agenda for the upcoming national breed council meeting. If passed, they will be formally writing to the vet societies expressing concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 It's not something I've experienced - but we only breed rarely, so there is less chance that we would experience puppy buyers having this issue with vets, just because we have so few puppy buyers. But, to read some of the experiences of other breeders out there is just jaw dropping!! I am certainly concerned that there are vets out there recommending this procedure as a matter of course, I think it's disgraceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyBC Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) I have posted this in the Health / Nutrition / Grooming and it appears that no one is interested. Am I among the minority because I am concerned about the prevalence of vets that are advocating this surgery? I first posted about this on the 23rd March 2008 and at the time it received many hits and even today I still receive emails asking (a) about the surgery and (B) which veterinary practices are involved in advising puppy people to have the surgery on their puppies. I would first like all breeders to warn their puppy buyers about vets who are advising that puppies undergo this unnecessary surgery, some of these vets can be very persuasive making new puppy owners think that it is in the best interest for the life long health of their new puppy. What do other think, are they concerned, who here has been contacted by worried new puppy owners because vets have advised them to have the surgery on their new puppy? These days I warn all of my new owners to BEWARE of vets who offer this surgery and to contact me if their vet should even mention JPS surgery. OMG thats terrible... So are the Vets suggesting this procedure after Xraying the puppy???? Why would they do this.....I'd like to know more.. Edited November 30, 2011 by dannyBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 From what I've heard it's not even after x-raying because there's a suspected problem - it's being pushed routinely when there are no problems present, just based on breed/size of the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollipop Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 True, Allerzeit. These vets are telling puppy owners that large breed dogs get hip problems. Also I don't see the point in doing the Pennhip xrays then doing the JPS before the xrays are sent away for scoring. They could be butchering perfectly healthy puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolzseinrotts Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 ^^^^^^^^^ These types of Vets are butchering perfectly healthy puppies!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lils mum Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) Was discussing this with a friend recently- the general PennHIP 'PUSH' from vets who have paid to become certified for PennHIP and she passed on this abstract on JPS, etc. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17223752 and also there is information on the ACTCA site from their journal - http://www.dogsact.org.au/Journals/November2011%20Electronic.pdf (p.19) Edited November 30, 2011 by lils mum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) lils mum, Thanks for the ACT site, I have just read it but it is still contradictory I know that the surgery must be performed before the puppy reaches the age of 22 weeks, it also states that the PENNHIP should be evaluated and the client must be fully informed before proceeding. (a) PennHip needs to go to the USA for reading (am I correct?) that takes time!!! By the time the results are back the puppy would be past the bench mark for successful surgery. (2) The client must be fully informed. Client sees the vet as being the one in authority he/she knows what they are talking about so he/she must be right and the client only wants what is best for their puppy right so if the vet tells them that JPS is warranted then (for many that is what they will do) How many will take the puppy for a second opinion (Not Many). How many will contact their breeder (Most I Hope). (3) All of the cases I have heard the puppy is PennHipped, Desexed and JPS done on the same day. One of my puppy buyers agreed to only having their female puppy PennHipped and desexed, they refused to go ahead with JPS but they only contacted me after the event sadly, (they had intended to show her) I myself have had 4 puppy owners contact me and ask why their vet has suggested JPS and I am not a big breeder (thank god they did,) 3 of these have been from the ACT and all were given the advise at different veterinary hospitals, the other was from the Central Coast. Edited December 1, 2011 by Fordogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollipop Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 That is another thing that irks me. The puppies are desexed at the same time to "stop the disease from spreading". What if there is no hip disease! In my breed I would prefer that puppies did a bit more growing before desexing at such an early age. I would say it is more likely that they are desexed because after the butchering, a female's pelvis would not be able to expand for a normal labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) That is correct mollipop once fused the pelvis would not expand. Sad to hear that one of your puppies went through the surgery I also tell my puppy buyer that I would prefer for the puppy to grow a little more prior to desexing, would prefer after first season but not all are able to do that. My breed are all hip & elbow xrayed prior to breeding so I always add hip results to puppy packs, one of my puppy people actually showed these to the vet when he spoke to them about the surgery and he completely ignored them and said that he still felt that they should go ahead with the surgery for the sake of the puppy, they were so angry they rung me the moment they hit the street and asked me for recommendations for a new vet. Edited December 1, 2011 by Fordogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lils mum Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 .....(a) PennHip needs to go to the USA for reading (am I correct?) that takes time!!! By the time the results are back the puppy would be past the bench mark for successful surgery. ..... (3) All of the cases I have heard the puppy is PennHipped, Desexed and JPS done on the same day. One of my puppy buyers agreed to only having their female puppy PennHipped and desexed, they refused to go ahead with JPS but they only contacted me after the event sadly, (they had intended to how her) .... Yes the films do need to go to the US for assessment, but I have heard that it only takes a week or so for the results to be available. Do you have information on the PennHIP results from the puppies who have had surgery? Can you ask your puppy buyers to send you a copy of the official results? Do they confirm the operating vet's opinions that this is necessary surgery?? This would be REALLY interesting information to get I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 Lils mum I don't believe that it was actually even sent away for evaluation It is only done as a reference and the procedure demands that it is done :mad . It has no value as it is too late for the puppy the xray is done the same day as surgery and desexing so it is too late to prevent anything. I have not heard of any of these PennHips done prior to JPS that are evaluated PROFESSIONALLY >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM ANYONE THAT HAS HAD THEM EVALUATED >>>>>>>>> PLEASE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyBC Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Lils mum I don't believe that it was actually even sent away for evaluation It is only done as a reference and the procedure demands that it is done :mad . It has no value as it is too late for the puppy the xray is done the same day as surgery and desexing so it is too late to prevent anything. I have not heard of any of these PennHips done prior to JPS that are evaluated PROFESSIONALLY >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM ANYONE THAT HAS HAD THEM EVALUATED >>>>>>>>> PLEASE This is just getting ridiculous!!! I feel so sorry for these Pet owners who trust their Vet... I have just started a thread on Penn Hip as I have concerns with it?? as an evaluation process.... I've had similar happen to me twice with Border Collie puppies I've bred..... Penn Hip Vets are calling dogs with Laxity - Hip Displasia!!!!! & its not..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) Sorry dannyBC. I have no idea as to what we can do to prevent these vets from misdiagnosing our dogs. Not sure as to whether the Veterinary Surgeons Board would listen. Maybe a petition of some kind? Maybe if enough of us protest about the number of times this is happening? Perhaps we could get DOGS NSW or the ANKC to listen. Any ideas would be welcome. We do need to work together but not sure as to how. Edited December 1, 2011 by Fordogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 O.M.G - I am completely horrified. Desexing a large breed pup at 22 weeks is doing nothing favourable in regard to growing out to their full potential. I am also horrified that these proceedures are being recommended with teh same amount of though as a vaccine or flea treatment. It is massive, invasive surgery. My SIL had a young dog with confirmed hip dysplasia at under 12 months. The procedure was recommended for her dog - and rightly so. It was explained that the younger it is done the better, but that her dog would still gain benefits from having the procedure done even at 12 months. 22 weeks - gobsmacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 You say that JPS was done at 12 months??? I can't believe that, then Why are they trying to make people have it done at 22 weeks, ( I guess that they don't want to let owners think about it tooo Long or they might change their mind) :mad Everything that I have read says that the cut off is 22 weeks??????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 No it wasn't done, and the vet did say that it has the best effect done early but this particular dog would still gain benefits from having the surgery done at 12 months. These benefits would have been greater if it had of been done earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lils mum Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 No it wasn't done, and the vet did say that it has the best effect done early but this particular dog would still gain benefits from having the surgery done at 12 months. These benefits would have been greater if it had of been done earlier. Maybe, maybe not... Seems even Penn HIP don't actually recommend this procedure - see under Q & A - last question... http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Default.aspx?TabId=3234 My vet has advised a surgical procedure to avoid the development of arthritis in my dog later in life based on the results of his PennHIP examination. Should I have my dog operated on? Answer: Until appropriate randomized and controlled clinical trials are designed and conducted, it is premature to use the Distraction Index as an indication for hip surgery, either remedial or preventive. At present several different surgical procedures (Triple pelvic osteotomy, Juvenile symphysiodesis) have been advocated by some veterinary surgeons to prevent the development of arthritis (degenerative joint disease) later in life in dogs with excess joint laxity (loose hips). None of these procedures have undergone scientific clinical trials that have proven THEIR EFFICACY in preventing the onset or slowing the development of arthritis in dogs with hip dysplasia. Although WE ARE not fundamentally against the use of preventative surgical management of dogs with excessive hip laxity, WE FEEL THE WHOLESALE CLINICAL USE OF PURPORTEDLY PREVENTIVE SURGICAL PROCEDURES BEFORE ADEQUATE TESTING IS CONDUCTED, IS UNJUSTIFIED. WE ADVISE CAUTION! It may be that in the future when good evidence exists to support the efficacy of these procedures their use will be encouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 lils mum thank you for that info. Very good news!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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