Behaviours That Could Lead To Dominance

[flame ryder]

Ok I'm curious now...what on earth is alpha roll?

Decades ago, when people were observing interactions between unrelated wolves that they had placed in an enclosure together, they saw what they thought was the alpha wolf pushing a subordinate wolf onto the ground by their neck and pinning it there to assert its dominance. Long story short, some people use this technique to assert dominance over their domesticated dogs.

What will actually occur within a stable wolf pack is a subordinate (usually an offspring of the alpha wolf, which is by definition the primary breeding individual) will volunteer a position on the ground. Canids do a lot of posturing and subtle body language to communicate so they don't have to be physical with each other. If a wolf is actually forcing another wolf onto the ground by its neck, it is almost always about to kill it.

If you want to create a dog that is fearful, or reactive/aggressive to being touched around its neck, alpha rolls are a great way to go. You can get away with it on some dogs, in many you are creating far worse behavioural problems than you started with.

Also, and I've said it before, dogs aren't wolves. And they don't think for a second that WE are wolves either.

Oh dear...I have taught both of my dogs to roll over onto their backs...the german shepard will go over when I make a gun shape with my hand and say bang...then down she goes as if dropping dead...her reward is that I always rub her tummy which she loves. I've also taught my Chinese Crested to roll over, I did this out of necessity as he is prone to rashes on his tummy area and I need to check. I taught him this by pushing him down by the neck...he now will do it easily for food rewards if I tell him roll over. Now you've got me thinking I've done something horribly wrong.

[persephone]

teela - 'alpha rolls' are when a human forcibly grabs their dog and pushes/rolls it over on its side/back - holding it there,as a form of discipline.

it is NOT teaching dogs to play dead, or present a body area for treatment :)

[jacqui835]

ps, i kiss and cuddle him sometimes too

but then he kisses me sometimes too...

Aw beautiful dog.

[Esky the husky]

The over confidence in dominant dogs is the first thing you notice, they are not "clingy" dogs and they do not try to dominate every person or dog they come across.

To me, this type of personality in a dog is a special trait I prize it above all others because with this type of dog you can do anything, they are the perfect total package. From an evolutionary perspective, they are remarkable and essential to the history of the dog. imo it is a reflection on the modern human, that this type of dog is widely misunderstood and misattributed, and in some circles, even debunked.

Is this one of the desired traits in your breeds Lilli?

Just curious your breeds fascinate me

[jacqui835]

teela - 'alpha rolls' are when a human forcibly grabs their dog and pushes/rolls it over on its side/back - holding it there,as a form of discipline.

it is NOT teaching dogs to play dead, or present a body area for treatment :)

There is no command either, they just grab the dog and force it to the ground. Your dog will either roll over by its own free will (if I get angry at my dog or point to a crime - such as my shoe moved somewhere by the dog, he will often roll over to show he submits and doesn't want to challenge me over it) or it will be confused/upset or resist and potentially attack you.

I remember hearing from one guy at the park about how he muzzled his dog each night and alpha rolled him - and that was how he kept him in check. I'm no expert but I couldn't personally see what he was achieving...

[Weasels]

lili it was poorly worded but I do not believe it's incorrect. By 'physical' I meant interactions with the potential to cause physical harm. Wild canids, and most social species, will not risk injury unecessarily - just to communicate - when an injury is quite likely to mean death through infection or inability to procure food. It would be evolutionary suicide.

I would expect the level of apparent physicality, however, to correlate with the presence of bite inhibition. Wolves have it, coyotes not so much.

I see dogs who live in groups and there definitely is physical harm in some altercations

and it is not by accident.

How much injury a dog wants to risk depends on need/want Vs physical pain and capability. To me it makes more sense that a dog's 'necessity' for physical altercation depends on its instinct and environmental feedback.

One of my best girls is very physical with her pups, not all of them, but usually there are one or two who forget where they inherit their alpha birthright from.

Even when there are physical altercations between dogs from different families, physical harm is definitely part of the 'negotiation' process.

Of course, physical alteration is not used in the first instance between dogs that live in the same group, but I think it is definitely part of their communication repertoire.

A natural dog's coat and morphology can actually withstand physical harm quite well. Ie: harm will be received as physical pain but the risk of death and infection is very low.

So it is very unlikely that physical confrontation between dogs who live in the same group will be life threatening. EXCEPT in the situation where there is an intolerance between two members due to stronger basic instincts.

I cannot comment about wolves and coyotes and their bite inhibition as I do not spend time with them

Which is exactly my point about the inadvisability of using wild canid observations to explain domestic dog behaviour.

Domestic dogs have much less pressure to survive and much more interaction with other individuals, including other dogs and multiple other species as well.

A wolf in a stable territory can go through its whole life and only encounter a couple of other wolves that aren't members of its family. My dogs have met 10 other dogs and 7 other humans just on their walk at the park this morning. Makes sense that they would need a broader and sometimes more insistent communication reportoire.

[Weasels]

Oh dear...I have taught both of my dogs to roll over onto their backs...the german shepard will go over when I make a gun shape with my hand and say bang...then down she goes as if dropping dead...her reward is that I always rub her tummy which she loves. I've also taught my Chinese Crested to roll over, I did this out of necessity as he is prone to rashes on his tummy area and I need to check. I taught him this by pushing him down by the neck...he now will do it easily for food rewards if I tell him roll over. Now you've got me thinking I've done something horribly wrong.

Teela as Persephone said, that's totally different You have nothing to worry about.

I have taught my dogs 'play dead' (with the same 'bang' cue as you ), lie on their side and roll over. When I was teaching my boy to lie on his side he would try to roll over, so I would gently put a hand on his shoulder to stop him where I wanted him so he could get his bit of chicken. And he's a skittish boy so if this upset him at all he would've been out of there.

This is light years away from grabbing him by the scruff and forcing him into a position on the ground. Demeanour and trust count for a lot

[BJean]

The over confidence in dominant dogs is the first thing you notice, they are not "clingy" dogs and they do not try to dominate every person or dog they come across.

To me, this type of personality in a dog is a special trait I prize it above all others because with this type of dog you can do anything, they are the perfect total package. From an evolutionary perspective, they are remarkable and essential to the history of the dog. imo it is a reflection on the modern human, that this type of dog is widely misunderstood and misattributed, and in some circles, even debunked.

Is this one of the desired traits in your breeds Lilli?

Just curious your breeds fascinate me

A dominant personality type can be (should be?) present in all breeds. But I guess depending on each breed, the dominant personality type would behave in its own way.

IE: a dominant Anatolian would have different traits to a dominant German Shepherd or Malamute - the basic type of personality would be the same - it would just be manifested in a breed specific way.

In my breeds some breeders do not like true dominant individuals. And to be honest, there are not many homes in Australia that can cater for this type of ASD and CAS. In ASD dominant individuals are very territorial and HA, in CAS very DA and also very active HA. At the same time these dogs will be 110% reliable and predictable. They also have adaptive intelligence, strong sense or order and routine and extremely loyal. Often these dogs will not accept other people once they are adults. My dominant male ASD, does not warm to or accept anyone - even when I am o/s, the carer can only throw food over the fence to him. A few years ago he went to the kennel for three weeks. He did not improve - it did not matter that they gave him food, they could not go into his pen or go close. What makes him tricky is that he does not bark and carry on. Basically he is sure of himself and does not feel the need to bark or growl much warning. In a working environment, he almost hunts what he protects against.

Ex: if there is a fox or stray dog, he does not bark / growl and charge in typical LGD fashion. He stares at them intently while moving forward. I have seen him actually crouch in the long grass and stalk another dog, like a cat would a bird. Anyway I built him a custom enclosure so he could stay at my house while I am away. I love him :D

Edited December 1, 2011 by lilli

[spyda62]

In my opinion, dominance is just a stupid word that is overused in the doggy world.

So many people with badly behaved or badly trained dogs use that word to excuse their behaviour. Or people use it as an excuse to manhandle dogs. I heard a story of a dog groomer that had to show who was Alpha to a "dominant" dog (that she was meeting for the first time) by using the alpha roll and had this dog pinned down for nearly 15 mins till it submitted. This dog weighs 3.5kgs!

My dogs sometimes go through doors before me, sit on my lap, my small dog sits on top of one of my bigger dogs, one dog tries to hump my mats when I shake them. Does this mean they are dominant...not a chance! Just badly trained / behaved.

[Bull Arab]

What is dominance between a dog and a handler? I have observed our not insubstantial pack many many times. I have seen the pack structure develop and change with additions and as dogs mature and I have observed varying degrees of dominant behaviour between the dogs. Not once have I seen these behaviours aimed at me or any other person handling the dog, infact the behaviours they display with humans are markedly different. I don't believe any of our dogs are trying to dominate me for one simple reason, what could they hope to achieve by doing it? They are not going to be able to mate with me or the real boss of the household, nor do they have to defend their honour from one of us, I / we provide the food when we say it should come so they are not going to get fed first, there may issues within the pack when one dog gets a bit more inside or couch time than the other, but I doubt they think they can get in there and get the couch and lock me in the laundry, so at the risk of anthropomorphising what on earth is in it for them to go to the effort required to dominate me? I do give our dogs enough credit for knowing what they can get away with and how many of the traditional 'dominating' behaviours are them doing just that, or displaying behaviours they have rehearsed and are comfortable with. As a case in point when lined up for a flyball run one of our dogs will put his back feet on ours, I have been told in the past that this is domination as he is trying to get one up on me by having the upper hand so to speak'. In fact he seems to do it as he is excited and uses the feet to push off on. He will do the same thing if you hold him back in the yard and throw a ball. Another dog always pushes past and insists on going through the back door first. Is he being dominant and demanding to go through the door first? The fact he normally runs flat out (sliding all over the polished wood floor) and skids to a stop with his nose in the bin or in front of the barrel of kibble says to me is belly is the only thing being dominant in that relationship!!! Then there is the dog that jumps up on me when I am on the couch (if only she wasn't a dane cross this would be ok), is she dominating me when she leaps up and shoves her head under my hand? Or is it just that she loves to have her ears scratched?

Again as Dunbar said. Spend less time worrying about domination and trying to read the domination signs you and your dog are sending and more time training, playing and enjoying your dog!!

Edited December 2, 2011 by Bull Arab

[casowner]

As Jake grew older he would not accept any new people on the property, I liken it to him growing into his CAOdom. As a youngster he was wary but would accept "certain" people but after 3 years of age his acceptance of new people was almost non existant. He also started the staring rather than barking when protecting, to me when he was quiet around people was when we were much more vigilent.