How Can Anyone Think Its Right To Hit A Dog!

[huski]

Simple solution, look after an adolescent high-drive working dog for a week. If flatmate still thinks smacking is useful, they are oblivious. Without making any comment on the ethics of the situation, it's a sure way to get a lively one going!

:laugh:

[Simply Grand]

I agree huski. A couple of friends of mine have 'taught' their dogs not to run away when they're called by hitting them when they eventually catch them after they have run.

It 'works' in that the dogs, one in particular, now still refuse to come to the owners when called (not all the time to be fair) but eventually stop and drop and wait for the owner to get to them (and both owners have commented "and s/he knows s/he's in trouble!").

I guess that works for some people but I find training a good recall using positive reinforcement a much more reliable method of both getting them to come when you want them to and, more importantly, keeping them safe.

EFS

Edited November 29, 2011 by Saxonpup

[Atanquin]

I agree huski. A couple of friends of mine have 'taught' their dogs not to run away when they're called by hitting them when they eventually catch them after they have run.

It 'works' in that the dogs, one in particular, now still refuse to come to the owners when called (not all the time to be fair) but eventually stop and drop and wait for the owner to get to them (and both owners have commented "and s/he knows s/he's in trouble!").

I guess that works for some people but I find training a good recall using positive reinforcement a much more reliable method of both getting them to come when you want them to and, more importantly, keeping them safe.

EFS

I agree I have never ever smacked zorro while training because there is no need and they then learn if they come to you they will be smacked so it has a negative affect. I have always praised zorro when he "comes" even if I have had to do it in my growl voice but once he comes to me he gets a good boy and a pat if he comes straight away he gets a treat and an extra big fuss over how is a smart boy he is still only 7 months so he still a naughty little puppy at times :p but he has never not come to me because he is scared and his recall gets better all the time like only time I smack him was to reinforce the no or leave command for when he had a toad in his mouth that he was refusing to drop like I said still a naughty puppy

[Blonde_Phoenix]

I’m not sure exactly what you want my answer to be Huski? Did the behaviour cease after the first correction? No, but currently he does not mouth the cat; he will follow the cat and at times touch him with his nose. I am able now to call him away from the cat and use the command ‘leave it’ to prevent him following the cat at all. Physical correction is just one of a number of methods I have used (and by far the least common). I could ask the same question of you; does using positive reinforcement work from the first time and every time when trying to establish behaviour? Training is a work in progress no matter what techniques you choose to employ.

I completely agree that what one person considers as having ‘worked’ is very subjective. My family’s dog has earned obedience and agility titles, is happy and well adjusted and behaves in a manner considered by my family to be appropriate for a family companion. I’m pretty happy to say for her and us that is working, someone else may have different expectations and that is fair enough.

[Little Catdog]

Just like the debate of 'is it right to smack children?'. Everyone has differing opinions and interpretations.

No interpretation needed......violence is violence .....Duh

[Aidan3]

I could ask the same question of you; does using positive reinforcement work from the first time and every time when trying to establish behaviour?

I think we need to be careful with this sort of argument, Huski didn't ask that question of you. She asked if it worked, and raised the matter of what does "it worked" mean to different people. Reasonable questions.

Huski has a professional involvement with one of Australia's most respected behaviourists, so no doubt she has seen the same sorts of things I have seen as a dog trainer. People don't always see the same thing everyone else sees. A small tap or swat that doesn't cause any surprise or pain probably also doesn't have much effect on the behaviour. It may even just excite the dog or actually reinforce unwanted behaviour. Other factors will often intervene, tone of voice etc but the owner will attribute the change in behaviour to the tap or swat.

But more common is the owner who seems oblivious to their dog's misbehaviour (or anxiety). In their mind they are dealing with the problem and think they have it under control. But they will plug away, sometimes for years, making the same mistakes and really just interrupting unwanted behaviour when they are there to deal with it. Often, a more lasting or effective intervention can be employed, but breaking an old habit is hard. I think we can all relate to that

[Blonde_Phoenix]

I think we need to be careful with this sort of argument, Huski didn't ask that question of you. She asked if it worked, and raised the matter of what does "it worked" mean to different people. Reasonable questions.

Both of which I think I answered

Huski's orginal question asked

Did smacking him stop the behaviour completely though? I mean did it happen again?

I guess I'm having trouble understanding at exactly what point the "again" comes into effect. I would imagine most would consider the process of teaching a dog 'apropriate' behavours just that a process which, takes time and on ocassions the process stalls or goes backward, no matter the methods chosen.

[Aidan3]

Huski's orginal question asked

Did smacking him stop the behaviour completely though? I mean did it happen again?

I guess I'm having trouble understanding at exactly what point the "again" comes into effect. I would imagine most would consider the process of teaching a dog 'apropriate' behavours just that a process which, takes time and on ocassions the process stalls or goes backward, no matter the methods chosen.

For positive punishment to be fair, it should work very quickly. Much faster than positive reinforcement. Some trainers have suggested no more than 3 repetitions (with caveats).

Positive reinforcement should also work very quickly, but the difference is that we are building a more complex response with a lot of factors. This is very different to stopping something that the dog already knows how to do in detail and already wants to do.

So that "again" should come into effect very quickly when using punishment. That requires excellent timing, an excellent understanding of the behaviour and it's motivation, and an excellent understanding of the dog.

[jacqui835]

Regardless of your opinion on the use of positive punishment absolutely nothing you ever do intentionally should cause a dog pain or for it to be afraid of you.

This. Same goes for children.

[Simply Grand]

I agree Snook (and jacqui). And on that basis I wouldn't see hitting the dog as any use at all. If the punishment isnt unpleasant enough to deter the dog from the behaviour (once it makes the connection between the two) then it isn't really teaching to dog not to do the behaviour. A tap or a flick on the nose may distract the dog from what it's doing at the time, like Aidan said, but if it doesn't really bother the dog then it won't actually teach it to stop the behaviour.

[darlingdog]

Here we go I have an idea for you

Tonight on your way home go to the shop and get the following.

1 Packet of 3 min noodles

1 Packet of Tim Tams

1 Bucket of KFC

1 6 pack of Bundy and Coke

1 Bottle of water

1 Packet of Jaffas

1 Piece of 4X2

Call and say you have made dinner so just come home

Set table as follows

Plate with KFC in centre

Tim Tams on plate at edge

Open Bundy can on other edge

Soften noodles (no seasoning) then put in a bowl on the table when cold.

Put water in a dirty glass

Get a treat pouch and put the Jaffas in it and stand out of sight with the 4X2

When he comes in and grabs anything but the noodles yell at him in a language he doesn't understand hit him with the 4X2 and take a piece of chicken or a tim tam for yourself.

It is very important at this point not to explain why or to speak in english. If he trys to defend himself you know what to do.

When he goes for a bundy again yell in Swahili hit with 4X2 and drink some bundy yourself.

Repeat until he goes for the noodles (no fork) and when he does throw a jaffa at him and say "YES" good boy.

Same goes for the water

Repeat until he gets the message or you break the 4X2.

Then give the left over's to the dog (but take the bones out of the chicken)

This is very similar to the method my OH employed to get me to pick up towels and put socks in the washing basket!!!!

[huski]

I’m not sure exactly what you want my answer to be Huski? Did the behaviour cease after the first correction? No, but currently he does not mouth the cat; he will follow the cat and at times touch him with his nose. I am able now to call him away from the cat and use the command ‘leave it’ to prevent him following the cat at all. Physical correction is just one of a number of methods I have used (and by far the least common). I could ask the same question of you; does using positive reinforcement work from the first time and every time when trying to establish behaviour? Training is a work in progress no matter what techniques you choose to employ.

I completely agree that what one person considers as having ‘worked’ is very subjective. My family’s dog has earned obedience and agility titles, is happy and well adjusted and behaves in a manner considered by my family to be appropriate for a family companion. I’m pretty happy to say for her and us that is working, someone else may have different expectations and that is fair enough.

Ok to clarify, I wasn't talking about positive vs negative nor did I say anywhere that I'd only use the PR quadrant.

You said you weren't trying to teach your dog anything, but that you were trying to stop the behaviour. If we are talking about stopping a dog viewing a cat as a prey item, hitting the dog to stop the behaviour from displaying may appear to work the instant you do it, but it's not actually teaching the dog not to view the cat as prey. It's not changing the dog's emotional response to the trigger (the cat), which is why I would have been surprised if you said the dog had never shown interest in the cat after that.

And if you used a combination of other methods to stop your dog chasing the cat, how do you know that hitting him helped to deter the behaviour? Sure training is always a work in process, but if you were go to a trainer, would you continue to use their methods if you didn't see a certain level of results pretty quickly? I wouldn't plug away at something that didn't work or get the results I wanted. Regardless of the method I use, I want to see that it is working.

The other thing I would consider (and something even I see pretty often) is that when people use physical corrections like smacking their dog to diminish drive this can work sometimes to stop the dog displaying drive around the handler, but it's not likely to stop the dog from displaying drive away from the handler.

[Bull Arab]

Wtf!! Lol! Love it..so OT, what's the towl story..

I am a male and we are genetically predisposed to leaving wet towels on the bed, floor, etc etc etc. Oh has had to revert to this as clearly positive reinforcement hasn't worked on me!!

[Leelaa17]

I do think it can be ok to 'hit' a dog (or child) but I don't think it is ever acceptable to hurt a dog (or child) - in my mind there is a difference. How do I think it can be alright to hit a dog? Well because you can't always explain everything to children or dogs (try explaining to a dog why they shouldn't chase a cat on the other side of the road) what they need to understand is that for whatever reason (maybe it's dangerous for example) you find something completely unacceptable and are very angered and upset should they perform those actions (run across the road, try and pull things off the stove etc).

But I think what your housemate did was wrong. For smacking to be an effective punishment, the subject needs to trust you, and to not want you upset or angry. My dog isn't scared when I hit him, he knows I would never hurt him and he certainly doesn't run and hide from me afterward. He is just sad because he knows how angry I am at him. Secondly, the subject most know what it is that you disapprove of. We can say to my dog, "get off the road," and he will run onto the footpath. So if he steps on without permission, well he gets a smack, and he knows why because he leaps off the road once he realises he's on it. But I think without meeting these criteria you run the risk of creating a dog that fears humans and learns to use physical means to resolve their problems (same thing happens in children).

If someone hit my dog and he wasn't either attacking them or their dog, well I would be very angry and let them have it. I'm sure I'd be even worse if it was a child.

x2

I had an incident recently when a man tried to hit my dog while my dog was trying to play with his, he accused max of 'attacking' his dog.

It is never acceptable to hit another persons dog, one of the main reasons being because you don't know how it will react to (a possible stranger) hitting them.

[Leelaa17]

Regardless of your opinion on the use of positive punishment absolutely nothing you ever do intentionally should cause a dog pain or for it to be afraid of you.

This. Same goes for children.

x2 again.

[Blonde_Phoenix]

Ok to clarify, I wasn't talking about positive vs negative nor did I say anywhere that I'd only use the PR quadrant.

You said you weren't trying to teach your dog anything, but that you were trying to stop the behaviour. If we are talking about stopping a dog viewing a cat as a prey item, hitting the dog to stop the behaviour from displaying may appear to work the instant you do it, but it's not actually teaching the dog not to view the cat as prey. It's not changing the dog's emotional response to the trigger (the cat), which is why I would have been surprised if you said the dog had never shown interest in the cat after that.

And if you used a combination of other methods to stop your dog chasing the cat, how do you know that hitting him helped to deter the behaviour? Sure training is always a work in process, but if you were go to a trainer, would you continue to use their methods if you didn't see a certain level of results pretty quickly? I wouldn't plug away at something that didn't work or get the results I wanted. Regardless of the method I use, I want to see that it is working.

The other thing I would consider (and something even I see pretty often) is that when people use physical corrections like smacking their dog to diminish drive this can work sometimes to stop the dog displaying drive around the handler, but it's not likely to stop the dog from displaying drive away from the handler.

Thank you for the clarification Huski, I agree with what you have said here. I've seen people yanking away at check chains at training achieving noting but a more hyped up and confused dog, I don't get that either.

I guess I felt the need to go on the defensive with regards to the OP, I think it's highly unlikely anyone here would condone or agree with the actions of the housemate (I certainly don't), but the naming of the tread "How Can Anyone Think Its Right To Hit A Dog!" is a bit of an invite for passionate disagreement. I think most people would realise that there are still plenty of people (rightly or wrongly) who feel hitting is an appropriate method of correction.

I think such a debate could be better served with practical alternatives rather than demonisation.

[tarope]

Hitting your own dog is bad enough, but to hit an other persons dog is unbelievably wrong. :mad

I have never hit any of my dogs ever, a firm no with a raised finger is enough as they soon get the massage.

[Pollywaffle]

I believe myself to be a hypocrite - I believe that giving a child a small smack is acceptable under certain circumstances, but never to a dog/animal. Don't know what that says about my priorities! Best I don't contemplate too long.

[Bull Arab]

I believe myself to be a hypocrite - I believe that giving a child a small smack is acceptable under certain circumstances, but never to a dog/animal. Don't know what that says about my priorities! Best I don't contemplate too long.

Ok I promise to be serious for a moment, to throw the clicker amongst the check chains in this discussion I would like to raise the concept of moral responsibility and punishment. It is a well accepted philosophical concept that animals other than humans (contrary to the way some treat them this does include dogs) do not experience moral responsibility. By this I mean they do not know what they did was wrong, they have no understanding of shame and don’t (contrary again to what many feel they see in their pets) feel guilty. They may choose to or not to display a behaviour to achieve a positive response from a leader or other pack member, or even a positive response from it's self (I'm hungry, there is food in the bin, I knock the bin over I get food, now I not hungry, knocking bin over = positive response) and can learn not to do something (like touch an electric fence) if there is pain involved but, they cant understand what they did was morally wrong (I should not knock the bin over it's wrong to make a mess on the floor).

Where am I going with this? Let say I give my child a whack on the bum for fighting with her sister, or having a tantrum, or for hurting the dog. When she calms down I can explain to the child that it was because what she was doing was wrong, don’t hit your sister, don’t throw a tantrum, it is the wrong thing to do and if you do it again the outcome may well be the same . Given, some parents take this to the extreme as I witnessed in a shopping centre yesterday when a child ran off and his father yelled out to him 'I told ya not to do that now I am gunna havta belt ya' but I think you get the message. I believe if the child is too young to understand the reason then there is probably no excuse for hitting unless it is to stop them touching a hot plate, grabbing a power cord on the kettle or some such emergency.

This experience can't be reflected in the dog, you can't explain that chewing a shoe is 'wrong' and that is why you hit / kicked it, the dog doesn’t know right from wrong and given the opportunity in the same circumstance it will probably do it again. Getting physical with an animal cannot improve the relationship as the animal may grow to appreciate you as unpredictable, through hurting it for a reason it does not understand. We know it's wrong but the dog doesn’t, so why punish it?? Does that make sense?

Edited November 30, 2011 by Bull Arab