Warning - Dogs Eating Plums

[Nic.B]

I did think about bird netting the two trees and tying the bottom up with some twine but decided just to strip it.

Birds also get the fruit and drop it about & I dont want to risk it.

I will speak with the vet again later today (am driving him nuts! gee he must be glad Bella is better and home )

I wonder now if she will be more prone/sensitive to this sort of poisoning again? Ie it will take a smaller amount of something to poison her...

Raz they are buggers at times! I have always said to my husband, the dogs take a lot of looking after to make sure they are safe! Now I have a plum, compost heap and snake phobia lol.

[RubyBlue]

Yes it's the seed inside the stone fruit, also I believe that apple seeds contain arsenic & that the seeds have to be chewed to have an effect.

I think you mean "amygdalin" this is the glycoside attached to the CN. Enzymes "Beta-glycosidase" cleave the glycoside and the remainder hydrolyses to produce toxic HCN. Your body can detoxify this to an extent but once you have exceeded a certain dose you will start to get effects. Poor Bella must have eaten a lot or chewed the kernels very well! Continuing low level doses can cause permanent paralysis - if you're interested look up konzo.

Arsenic is a heavy metal and Im pretty sure it is not in kernels or seeds.

ETA Having read through the rest of the thread I should add that plant HCN is rarely released spontaneously. It is harmful to all cells including plant cells hence it is stored in a harmless form bonded to a suger moiety. Only when in the presence of the enzyme does it get released and become harmful. Usually the glycoside is stored in the vacuole and the enzyme outside the cell - breaking the cells (through chewing) brings the two together and disaster strikes the offending chewer.

Edited November 28, 2011 by RubyBlue

[Nic.B]

Yes it's the seed inside the stone fruit, also I believe that apple seeds contain arsenic & that the seeds have to be chewed to have an effect.

I think you mean "amygdalin" this is the glycoside attached to the CN. Enzymes "Beta-glycosidase" cleave the glycoside and the remainder hydrolyses to produce toxic HCN. Your body can detoxify this to an extent but once you have exceeded a certain dose you will start to get effects. Poor Bella must have eaten a lot or chewed the kernels very well! Continuing low level doses can cause permanent paralysis - if you're interested look up konzo.

Arsenic is a heavy metal and Im pretty sure it is not in kernels or seeds.

ETA Having read through the rest of the thread I should add that plant HCN is rarely released spontaneously. It is harmful to all cells including plant cells hence it is stored in a harmless form bonded to a suger moiety. Only when in the presence of the enzyme does it get released and become harmful. Usually the glycoside is stored in the vacuole and the enzyme outside the cell - breaking the cells (through chewing) brings the two together and disaster strikes the offending chewer.

Thank you Will look it up.

It makes sense to me that another dose of the same (even on a smaller level and different types of things) will upset her system more than this time.

Bella did eat a lot of plums. I saw that in her droppings. She has never done this in 10 years?

Do you think she may have some sort of deficiency which has caused her to eat so many plums?

If so, where do we need to head from here?

[superminty]

What kind of plums were they?

We have a blood plum tree - Minty eats kilograms of them each year, including the pips (although she doesn't chew the pips, they come out the other end whole ), and we've never had a problem, other than the disgusting poo!

[Nic.B]

What kind of plums were they?

We have a blood plum tree - Minty eats kilograms of them each year, including the pips (although she doesn't chew the pips, they come out the other end whole ), and we've never had a problem, other than the disgusting poo!

I have no idea what type of plum tree? It is two trees and the dogs have never touched them before. We have lived here over 10 years.

You have probably been very lucky with your dog. It is a great cause for concern for some dog owners though according to our vet and for us now with Bella. I would have never expected this, ever.

Bella's poo was terrible for an active healthy girl. At one stage we thought she had two issues going on at the same time. Stroke and a tummy upset. None of it made sense though really as she was hydrated and had no temp, no sign of infection etc. So the two were not connected with stroke or tetanus.

She had the signs and symptoms of both stroke and tetanus or being poisoned in some regard though I know that is not possible as they only spend time in the yard supervised.

Was not expecting plums though.

Drooling, listless, the strangest eyes I have ever seen, muscle spasm and tightness including her jaw. Not eating at all and just 100% off altogether.

She just could not move or function at all and it has been scary for us.

[superminty]

What kind of plums were they?

We have a blood plum tree - Minty eats kilograms of them each year, including the pips (although she doesn't chew the pips, they come out the other end whole ), and we've never had a problem, other than the disgusting poo!

I have no idea what type of plum tree? It is two trees and the dogs have never touched them before. We have lived here over 10 years.

You have probably been very lucky with your dog. It is a great cause for concern for some dog owners though according to our vet and for us now with Bella. I would have never expected this, ever.

Bella's poo was terrible for an active healthy girl. At one stage we thought she had two issues going on at the same time. Stroke and a tummy upset. None of it made sense though really as she was hydrated and had no temp, no sign of infection etc. So the two were not connected with stroke or tetanus.

She had the signs and symptoms of both stroke and tetanus or being poisoned in some regard though I know that is not possible as they only spend time in the yard supervised.

Was not expecting plums though.

Drooling, listless, the strangest eyes I have ever seen, muscle spasm and tightness including her jaw. Not eating at all and just 100% off altogether.

She just could not move or function at all and it has been scary for us.

Sounds terrible Minty does have an iron constitution, and my other dog won't touch them, so we may have just been lucky.

I was just wondering whether the different types of plum have different levels or something. Blood plums are dark red inside. There are also those red skinned, yellow fleshed plums, and I am sure many other varieties.

[RubyBlue]

Yes different types would have different concentrations of either the glycoside or the enzyme that cleaves it (plenty of plants contain the cyanogenic glycoside but not the enzyme so are relatively harmless) as this is under genetic control. Hundreds of plants have been screened for prunasin, lotaustralin and dhurrin (which have slightly different structured sugar moieties but are effectively the same thing) and although a species tends to fall in a range there are differences with in individuals, some of which may contain no CN.

As for whether it will be more or less toxic for her next time I dont know - the long term effects on consumers is not something we look into. I am inclined to think that once she has returned to full health her body will be able to detoxify them to the same extent as before. We detoxify HCN using sulfur and long term effects of a non-lethal dose (konzo) tend to only occur in 3rd world countries where people don't have access to a varied diet.

Rats are able to identify the food which made them sick and avoid it so she may make that connection too and not touch them again. Personally if it was my dog, I would not risk letting her near them ever again. Particularly as she is crunching the kernels - if she just ate the fruit and left the kernels intact (like supermintys dog) then there should be no problems.

Ill add this whilst I am on the topic too. Some people I know tested several packets of veggie chips made from cassava and/or tapioca. Some brands were ok but others were well beyond the WHO limit for CN. They worked out that if a small child ate a large packet they would likely receive a lethal dose.

[jacqui835]

Very scary. My dog is a very fussy eater, but he has a thing for tasty fruits. So if I've just eaten a nectarine he likes to lick my fingers afterward etc. One thing I have always wondered about, and apologies because this might be a bit OT, but why are grapes bad for dogs? My dog has an obsession with grapes, and will eat them if he can. He has never had any symptoms from eating them, but we have taken him to the vet nonetheless and they make him throw-up.

Sorry, I missed this.

Here is what is written in the link;

"Grapes or Raisins

Although the minimum lethal dosage is not known, grapes and raisins can be toxic to dogs when ingested in large quantities. The symptoms are gastrointestinal signs including vomiting and diarrhea, and then signs of kidney failure with an onset of severe kidney signs starting about 24 hours after ingestion. The amount of grapes eaten varied between 9 oz. and 2 lbs., which worked out to be between 0.41 and 1.1 oz/kg of body weight. It has been reported that two dogs died directly from the toxicity, three were euthanized due to poor response to treatment and five dogs lived."

Perhaps apple is a better option (without the seeds) as it is sweet, my dogs love peices of apple and carrot.

Thanks. Definitely won't be lowering my vigilence then. I just have no idea why he's so obsessed, he doesn't like carrot or apple :S