Toy Poodle Heart Murmur

[❤LovesPoodles❤]

I have a toy poodle just over 6 months. Recently I went to the vet to get her desexed and they said I cannot desex her she has a heart murmur. I have always used this vet and they never found it on her 2nd vaccination and they breeder said her vet hadn't found it neither. So I took her to another vet to get another opinion not saying anything just that she has a cough in her throat. They too said she has a significant heart murmur and to see a cardioligists as had the other vet too. She is going in on Wednesday for the ultrasound to see what is going on. My questions are does anyone have any useful information on heart murmur's as I am very worried as both vets said it is going to affect her lifespan. And also I have bought her from a registered breeder with papers and she was sold to me and the lady said she is show and breed quality (I just wanted pet) but if I bought to breed her I couldn't breed with her with this disease! I am little annoyed as all she has said is keep me up to date as I have kept two daughters from the same stud (my dog was is first litter) but she isn't worried about the $1300 pet she sold me that is going to cost me a fortune the rest of her life and could possibly die in a year which I have grown extremely attached to as anyone would she is my baby!! Any information will help thanks!

[Zug Zug]

My sympathies - you must be worried as anyone would be I think.

One of the risks with living things, is that there is always a risk they may get sick. There are no guarantees I suppose. I wonder if some breeders may offer to help with vet bills if it turns out to be a hereditary problem? But I imagine that would be entirely voluntary...? Interested in what other breeders would say on that front.

But I do know that show breeder or not, all lines of dogs display health problems from time to time. I doubt it is possible to breed the perfect absolutely healthy line - of pure breeds or cross breeds for that matter. But good breeders try very hard to keep those numbers (of less healthy puppies) as low as they possibly can.

I hope the vets are able to help her and keep her healthy and happy and sharing her life with you for many years to come.

[dancinbcs]

It seems very strange that neither your vet or the breeder's vet found the murmur before 6 months. They are usually worse in younger puppies and tend to improve or stay the same with age. Rarely they get worse but are usually easily detected at 6 weeks and puppies with a heart murmur should not be sold unless and until they grow out of it. To me this suggests that she may have an aquired heart problem, not a congenital one. The specialist should be able to tell which it is. If I was you I would ask the breeder to go with you to the ultrasound so she can hear the result, direct from the specialist.

If I bred the puppy, I would want to know what is going on and if the condition is congenital, then I would refund the purchase price of the puppy as soon as I had the money available. If it is an aquired condition then the breeder cannot be liable in any way. Dogs, like people can get ill with all sorts of things and no breeder can guarantee a dog will stay healthy for life.

[LizT]

SO sorry to hear this has happen to you and your puppy.

Did the Vet rate the Murmur? (they are graded from 1-6) 1-3 being low to moderate an not usually requiring any medication and the dog has a reasonably good chance at a normal life with care of it's health, a good diet and weight control. 4-6 usually will require some medicating, particular 5, and 6 at the later stage of life.

It is unusual that this wasn't detected earlier and as suggested it could well be an aquired condition.

The Heart specialist will be able to help you understand the condition and it's possible origin. I think it's a great idea asking the breeder to come along with you to help understand what's happening etc. It would be of benefit to her also.

Sadly, even with the best of selection no living thing is guaranteed against illness and you may have been very unlucky.

Find out what you can from the cardiologist and discuss this with the Breeder.

[Guest donatella]

I think she definitely owes you some form of $$ compensation for selling you a sick puppy. Isn't the reason people buy from reputable breeders is to pick up on these things early so as you are spending the dollars early to get a healthy pup from the onset.

[Jumabaar]

I think she definitely owes you some form of $$ compensation for selling you a sick puppy. Isn't the reason people buy from reputable breeders is to pick up on these things early so as you are spending the dollars early to get a healthy pup from the onset.

But there is no evidence thus far to prove that the pup was sick!! TWO vets cleared the pup- is the breeder supposed to have a crystal ball to know that the pup is sick? This pup was healthy from the onset.

Vet bills are a risk that you take on when you buy an animal.

[Guest donatella]

its still a relatively young dog though. when i buy something new I expect it to be 'healthy' at least the first year before things start going wrong. I'd be very peeved to have spent $1300 on a pedigree dog only for it to have such a serious health deficit only a few months later and whilst there is no magic ball for this, the breeder did produce this dog and sell it on and therefore is someone responsible still for it and its health problems going wrong at such a young age.

[pie]

You really don't know exactly what is going on until you get the results from the ultrasound, it may not be as bad as they think. There are different types of heart murmurs and the ultrasound will find out exactly where the murmur is and the severity.

It may not affect her lifespan or her life for that matter - my dog had a heart murmur picked up at about 1 year old when she was in for something else, it was ultrasounded and is very minor and they said she does not need medication and can even continue doing agility.

I know it's easier said than done but try not to get freaked out before you have the results.

Good luck on Wednesday, fingers crossed it's not too serious.

[pie]

its still a relatively young dog though. when i buy something new I expect it to be 'healthy' at least the first year before things start going wrong. I'd be very peeved to have spent $1300 on a pedigree dog only for it to have such a serious health deficit only a few months later and whilst there is no magic ball for this, the breeder did produce this dog and sell it on and therefore is someone responsible still for it and its health problems going wrong at such a young age.

Heart murmurs are not necessarily always congenital. They can be caused by parasites such as heartworm for example.

[Sandra777]

Good luck, I hope the specialist can answer some of your questions.

Donatella, you are being totally unrealistic. If the pup didn't have a problem while she was in the breeder's care and didn't have a problem at her first vet visit with her new owner then to me that means either both vets are useless, which seems pretty unlikely since one of them has now picked it up OR that the puppy has acquired this problem as she has grown - i.e. she was not born this way. Breeding a living thing is not the same as manufacturing a new car or toaster!

If I bred this pup I would probably refund some of the purchase price depending on the specialist's diagnosis, and I would probably offer to pay half the specialist's fee so both me and the owner could find out what is going on and go forward.

I don't think $1300 is very expensive for a Toy Poodle from good bloodlines is it?

[Guest donatella]

I'm not saying she needs to pay total refund, but some compensation or commiseration would be nice, not just "let me know how it goes". I guess it varies from breeder to breeder. That is just my opinion anyway, I understand things happen after purchase and tragedies strike to noones fault. I'm not blaming the breeder at all.

To the original poster, did you see the vet and health checks on this puppy from the breeder before you purchased? (just a question)

[megan_]

its still a relatively young dog though. when i buy something new I expect it to be 'healthy' at least the first year before things start going wrong. I'd be very peeved to have spent $1300 on a pedigree dog only for it to have such a serious health deficit only a few months later and whilst there is no magic ball for this, the breeder did produce this dog and sell it on and therefore is someone responsible still for it and its health problems going wrong at such a young age.

Dogs are living creatures. Any breeder that promises that they can deliver 100% healthy pups, guarunteed is a liar.

[Guest donatella]

its still a relatively young dog though. when i buy something new I expect it to be 'healthy' at least the first year before things start going wrong. I'd be very peeved to have spent $1300 on a pedigree dog only for it to have such a serious health deficit only a few months later and whilst there is no magic ball for this, the breeder did produce this dog and sell it on and therefore is someone responsible still for it and its health problems going wrong at such a young age.

Dogs are living creatures. Any breeder that promises that they can deliver 100% healthy pups, guarunteed is a liar.

well then they should expect some unhappy customers if they're breeding unhealthy pups for $1300 and then take little interest in the matter.

[Sandra777]

OP - how do you know she isn't worried about your puppy. It could be the breeder is being non committal until such time a specialist's diagnosis can be supplied. The puppy could have a serious heart defect because you have done something to cause it. I'm not saying you have and I don't mean to upset you I'm just saying in this day and age it's unlikely a breeder is going to leap up to take "the blame" for a problem which they have no information about (no specialist report as yet) and which may not be any fault of theirs.

Just as an aside - a registered breeder is not the same as an ethical breeder and I would frankly be surprised if an ethical Toy Poodle breeder sold a total novice a "breeding quality" bitch puppy with no strings attached, so what does your contract say about health issues and how they are to be dealt with?

[❤LovesPoodles❤]

Unfortunately the breeder cannot come see the specialist as she is in another state. My partner and I picked the pup up in person though as I'm not comfortable paying for something without seeing and getting to interact with it first. I do not care about show quality or breed quality she is just a family member. I was just meaning if I bought her to breed her on main register hyperthetically she would be useless. I understand dogs get sick just like we do but I've grown up with dogs and just never had anything like this happen. I chose not to get a puppy from a pet shop or backyard breeder for health reasons I chose to spend the money to get a good quality pup that was brought here for the right reasons not to make $$$. The breeder is a lovely person has been very helpful with any questions I have had. I just felt she was more worried about her lines than the pup I might lose. Everytime that cough happens in her throat my heart breaks. I won't know what grade murmur it is until they see her tomorrow. I thought for a pet puppy $1300 was a fair bit....I didn't pay the extra for main register. I don't want her to take blame for it I just want her to feel sympathetic to my situation I guess...I don't know. I am just hoping that we find out everything is ok and both vets heard something else...

Thanks for your replies

Thought I'd show a photo

Edited November 29, 2011 by krystal&coco

[Guest donatella]

Oh my gosh I can see why you are in love and she is your baby, what a gorgeous little thing!!

Please keep in touch with the specialists results.

[pebbles]

I had a fairly serious heart murmur picked up in a 6 year old show boy during a yearly checkup. He had no symptoms, no sign of it 12 months earlier. It didn't affect him at all, went at 13 years of an unconnected illness. I tried to keep him quiet for a while but he wanted to enjoy life.

[Alkhe]

Oooh god, she is absolutely stunning :love: Those eyes! SWOON.

This is an awful thing to have happened, but as pebbles said, it doesn't necessarily have to be a death sentence or dramatically reduce her quality of life or lifespan. One of my childhood pets was a Miniature Poodle and he was diagnosed with a heart murmur at approx 4 years. He lived until the ripe old age of 17, and bad arthritis was a far more serious problem toward the end than his heart condition. Though he was on medication for much of his life, apart from having his pills, you wouldn't even have known he had any health problems at all.

Keep us updated on what the specialist says, and what kind of condition it is, but please don't worry too much just yet!

[Jumabaar]

its still a relatively young dog though. when i buy something new I expect it to be 'healthy' at least the first year before things start going wrong. I'd be very peeved to have spent $1300 on a pedigree dog only for it to have such a serious health deficit only a few months later and whilst there is no magic ball for this, the breeder did produce this dog and sell it on and therefore is someone responsible still for it and its health problems going wrong at such a young age.

Donatella- Why is the breeder responsible for a pup up to a certain undetermined age? They sold the pup healthy. Why have you set one year of age, why shouldn't it be 6mth or 18mths or 2yrs. When would you feel you had got your moneys worth? Would it change if the breeder charged $1000 or if they charged $100?

Is the breeder responsible for a broken leg under 1yr of age because of the excitable temperament of a dog? Or if its baby canines don't fall out and it needs surgery to remove them?

When I buy a pup I get it health checked. At that point I accept all responsibility- I will have checked that I am happy with the hip scores of the parents, I will have asked about any other health problems in the lines regarding the breed tendency and ask about the ages that my dogs relatives have lived to. In my opinion if the breeder answers all of these with answers that I am happy with then they have produced the best pup possible and the rest is left to fate.

krystal&coco- I hope you find some answers and that they are the ones you want to hear. Give your breeder a chance to process the situation. If I had that phone call I would probably be a little shocked so perhaps this is the case? I hope that the breeder is proactive regardless of the outcome.

[Guest donatella]

its still a relatively young dog though. when i buy something new I expect it to be 'healthy' at least the first year before things start going wrong. I'd be very peeved to have spent $1300 on a pedigree dog only for it to have such a serious health deficit only a few months later and whilst there is no magic ball for this, the breeder did produce this dog and sell it on and therefore is someone responsible still for it and its health problems going wrong at such a young age.

Donatella- Why is the breeder responsible for a pup up to a certain undetermined age? They sold the pup healthy. Why have you set one year of age, why shouldn't it be 6mth or 18mths or 2yrs. When would you feel you had got your moneys worth? Would it change if the breeder charged $1000 or if they charged $100?

Is the breeder responsible for a broken leg under 1yr of age because of the excitable temperament of a dog? Or if its baby canines don't fall out and it needs surgery to remove them?

When I buy a pup I get it health checked. At that point I accept all responsibility- I will have checked that I am happy with the hip scores of the parents, I will have asked about any other health problems in the lines regarding the breed tendency and ask about the ages that my dogs relatives have lived to. In my opinion if the breeder answers all of these with answers that I am happy with then they have produced the best pup possible and the rest is left to fate.

krystal&coco- I hope you find some answers and that they are the ones you want to hear. Give your breeder a chance to process the situation. If I had that phone call I would probably be a little shocked so perhaps this is the case? I hope that the breeder is proactive regardless of the outcome.

I think its still a very young age to be diagnosed with what could be a very detrimental health deficit (could also be one that sees it live a very long and healthy life) and is one you'd think a breeder would be very interested in following through seeing as her bloodlines produced what could be a sick pup (presuming its not an acquired conditioned as previously suggested which I guess what tests will determine). Many breeders would rather you contact them if you were thinking about rehoming a pup before rehoming to a stranger so surely they would take a more vested interest in a serious health matter? IF tests prove that this pup was born with the murmer and it was missed (that hasn't been negated yet, only specialist tests will rule it out) then the breeder needs to stand forward and take ownership. If it is something the pup has recently picked up then I completely agree its not the breeders fault at all, however i'd be taking one hell of a vested interest in it seeing as they are her bloodlines in this sick dog.