❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 In the letter from the specialist that I forward to her any siblings may be unaffected by the disease but are still carries of it so if bred they could pass it on. Hopefully she just rehomes them as pets and doesn't breed from them as the specialist advised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) In the letter from the specialist that I forward to her any siblings may be unaffected by the disease but are still carries of it so if bred they could pass it on. Hopefully she just rehomes them as pets and doesn't breed from them as the specialist advised. Strange considering the fact that the hereditary basis for PDA has nor been established in any breed as far as I am aware. The siblings may produce the problem but I have no idea how he can say they are carriers. From the few cases I know of in my breed it appears to most likely be a dominant gene so only one parent is the problem and has a very,very minor case of PDA that is not clinically able to be determined. There is no real way to work out which parent unless they produce another case to another partner. Any genetically unaffected siblings definitely do not seem to carry it. I know one breeder who had one case occur in several litters many years ago. Breeding on from those same lines she has not had another case in 20 years. It is one of the two most common heart congenital heart defect in all pure and cross bred dogs (and I think in humans) and is the failure of the heart vessels to separate properly as the heart develops. It is extremely unusual for a murmur from PDA to not be detected at 6 weeks so you and the breeder have been very unlucky to have this missed. In some puppies the condition corrects up to 3-4 months as they grow and in others it gets worse. There is no screening test to avoid breeding PDA, other than not breeding with dogs with heart murmurs. Surgery before the heart is damaged works very well but most people would not spend $5000+ for testing and surgery and would put the puppy down. In the unlikely event that a puppy with PDA is sold most breeders would expect the owner to return the puppy or have it pts and would offer either a replacement or refund, when another puppy or the funds becoem available. Edited December 1, 2011 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 So sorry this was not better news. You are kind to go ahead with the operation & it sounds as though the outcome will be successful. Maybe you could ask that the breeder refunds your money when the next litter is sold instead of giving you another puppy. If you explain that this will go towards the cost of the operation it may make them more inclined to help. Most breeders would have the puppy euthanised or advise you to as it is a big amount of money & not quite the same as say $1000. I hope everything turns out well for your puppy. This is real bad luck more than anyones fault. I breed toy poodles & would desex both parents & not breed the lines again unless I could trace back offspring a long way & try & find where this occurred, which is not easy if there is no definite test. Hope we hear some good news back from you in a few months & you post some beautiful photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 So sorry this was not better news. You are kind to go ahead with the operation & it sounds as though the outcome will be successful. Maybe you could ask that the breeder refunds your money when the next litter is sold instead of giving you another puppy. If you explain that this will go towards the cost of the operation it may make them more inclined to help. Most breeders would have the puppy euthanised or advise you to as it is a big amount of money & not quite the same as say $1000. I hope everything turns out well for your puppy. This is real bad luck more than anyones fault. I breed toy poodles & would desex both parents & not breed the lines again unless I could trace back offspring a long way & try & find where this occurred, which is not easy if there is no definite test. Hope we hear some good news back from you in a few months & you post some beautiful photos. I agree with the bolded bit above. Krystal&coco, if you go ahead with the surgery ask the breeder for a refund instead of a puppy when the next litter is sold. They probably don't have a spare $1300 lying around to give to you now but should have no objection to giving you the money when they get it from selling another puppy. Christina, desexing both parents and the siblings in this case is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". The breeder needs to have the parents and siblings heart tested by a specialist, just in case they can pick up any with a problem. If the can't then they need to breed them to different partners and have the puppies carefully checked. Almost all cases of PDA are detected at 6 weeks so if they get another one they will then know where they stand with it. This is a very, very unusual situation for a puppy to not be diagnosed until 6 months. The breeder could well have other related dogs that will produce PDA at some time, but one of the parents and the siblings may never produce it. If you aren't prepared to work around genetic problems as they crop up, then don't breed animals. Dogs are a multi progeny animal and nature never intended for every puppy to survive. Simply desexing everything every time a problem occurs would lead to no dogs at all in a very short time. All living creatures carry a roughly estimated 6 lethal genes. Many in dogs have not even been defined yet, so breeding is always a case of Russian Roulette with gene combinations. If you breed enough litters, you will encounter lots of genetic defects and luckily most are detected when the puppy is still with the breeder. Those that are more common in a breed and have a simple genetic basis, have a chance of having screening tests developed and are then easily managed. Multi genetic and dominant genes with incomplete or varying degrees of penetrance, like HD and PDA, are a lot harder to deal with but reducing the gene pool because of one problem always leads to an increase other problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 In the letter from the specialist that I forward to her any siblings may be unaffected by the disease but are still carries of it so if bred they could pass it on. Hopefully she just rehomes them as pets and doesn't breed from them as the specialist advised. Strange considering the fact that the hereditary basis for PDA has nor been established in any breed as far as I am aware. The siblings may produce the problem but I have no idea how he can say they are carriers. From the few cases I know of in my breed it appears to most likely be a dominant gene so only one parent is the problem and has a very,very minor case of PDA that is not clinically able to be determined. There is no real way to work out which parent unless they produce another case to another partner. Any genetically unaffected siblings definitely do not seem to carry it. I know one breeder who had one case occur in several litters many years ago. Breeding on from those same lines she has not had another case in 20 years. It is one of the two most common heart congenital heart defect in all pure and cross bred dogs (and I think in humans) and is the failure of the heart vessels to separate properly as the heart develops. It is extremely unusual for a murmur from PDA to not be detected at 6 weeks so you and the breeder have been very unlucky to have this missed. In some puppies the condition corrects up to 3-4 months as they grow and in others it gets worse. There is no screening test to avoid breeding PDA, other than not breeding with dogs with heart murmurs. Surgery before the heart is damaged works very well but most people would not spend $5000+ for testing and surgery and would put the puppy down. In the unlikely event that a puppy with PDA is sold most breeders would expect the owner to return the puppy or have it pts and would offer either a replacement or refund, when another puppy or the funds becoem available. This is what the specialist said about it being hereditary: This is a congenital defect. Poodles lines have been studied with PDA histories, and a hereditary mechanism has been proven in this breed. It also occurs more frequently in females. The presence of this defect requires changes to be made to the current breeding program. Both the sire and dam should also be assessed by a specialist via both auscultation and echocardiographic assessment for evidence of a PDA. Small PDAs are not always discernible via auscultation. Either the sire or the dam/or both a carriers for this defect. Not all carriers will have the phenotypic expression of the defect themselves. Unaffected siblings of this pup may also be carriers. I am happy to wait for the money when another litter is born instead of another pup which will be sometime next year. I guess we just hope the breeder keeps their word to that and oh well if not. I am still going to keep them upto date on Coco and send pictures as she grows up and gets new hair cuts and what not as I always have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I am happy to wait for the money when another litter is born instead of another pup which will be sometime next year. I guess we just hope the breeder keeps their word to that and oh well if not. I am still going to keep them upto date on Coco and send pictures as she grows up and gets new hair cuts and what not as I always have Good on you Krystal. All the best to you and Coco. Keep us updated too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 In the letter from the specialist that I forward to her any siblings may be unaffected by the disease but are still carries of it so if bred they could pass it on. Hopefully she just rehomes them as pets and doesn't breed from them as the specialist advised. Strange considering the fact that the hereditary basis for PDA has nor been established in any breed as far as I am aware. The siblings may produce the problem but I have no idea how he can say they are carriers. From the few cases I know of in my breed it appears to most likely be a dominant gene so only one parent is the problem and has a very,very minor case of PDA that is not clinically able to be determined. There is no real way to work out which parent unless they produce another case to another partner. Any genetically unaffected siblings definitely do not seem to carry it. I know one breeder who had one case occur in several litters many years ago. Breeding on from those same lines she has not had another case in 20 years. It is one of the two most common heart congenital heart defect in all pure and cross bred dogs (and I think in humans) and is the failure of the heart vessels to separate properly as the heart develops. It is extremely unusual for a murmur from PDA to not be detected at 6 weeks so you and the breeder have been very unlucky to have this missed. In some puppies the condition corrects up to 3-4 months as they grow and in others it gets worse. There is no screening test to avoid breeding PDA, other than not breeding with dogs with heart murmurs. Surgery before the heart is damaged works very well but most people would not spend $5000+ for testing and surgery and would put the puppy down. In the unlikely event that a puppy with PDA is sold most breeders would expect the owner to return the puppy or have it pts and would offer either a replacement or refund, when another puppy or the funds becoem available. This is what the specialist said about it being hereditary: This is a congenital defect. Poodles lines have been studied with PDA histories, and a hereditary mechanism has been proven in this breed. It also occurs more frequently in females. The presence of this defect requires changes to be made to the current breeding program. Both the sire and dam should also be assessed by a specialist via both auscultation and echocardiographic assessment for evidence of a PDA. Small PDAs are not always discernible via auscultation. Either the sire or the dam/or both a carriers for this defect. Not all carriers will have the phenotypic expression of the defect themselves. Unaffected siblings of this pup may also be carriers. I am happy to wait for the money when another litter is born instead of another pup which will be sometime next year. I guess we just hope the breeder keeps their word to that and oh well if not. I am still going to keep them upto date on Coco and send pictures as she grows up and gets new hair cuts and what not as I always have That quote from the specialist is correct but is not what you posted earlier. The siblings may be carriers or may be completely genetically free of the problem and therefore able to carry on the bloodline with no risk of the condition happening again. One of the parents is also likely to be completely normal so not breeding with either parent would be eliminating a perfectly normal dog from the gene pool. I hope Coco recovers after the surgery with no ill affects but I would be wary about doing surgery if there is already heart damage. I know of one puppy that already had too much damage by 3 months for surgery to be an option. If the blood flow reverses it causes damage that cannot be undone. Please give the breeder a little while to digest all this because it will probably have been a big shock to them if they have never encountered it before. Then ask them to consider a refund at some time when the funds are available. Hopefully they will be able to do this for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacuna Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 In the letter from the specialist that I forward to her any siblings may be unaffected by the disease but are still carries of it so if bred they could pass it on. Hopefully she just rehomes them as pets and doesn't breed from them as the specialist advised. Strange considering the fact that the hereditary basis for PDA has nor been established in any breed as far as I am aware. The siblings may produce the problem but I have no idea how he can say they are carriers. From the few cases I know of in my breed it appears to most likely be a dominant gene so only one parent is the problem and has a very,very minor case of PDA that is not clinically able to be determined. There is no real way to work out which parent unless they produce another case to another partner. Any genetically unaffected siblings definitely do not seem to carry it. I know one breeder who had one case occur in several litters many years ago. Breeding on from those same lines she has not had another case in 20 years. It is one of the two most common heart congenital heart defect in all pure and cross bred dogs (and I think in humans) and is the failure of the heart vessels to separate properly as the heart develops. It is extremely unusual for a murmur from PDA to not be detected at 6 weeks so you and the breeder have been very unlucky to have this missed. In some puppies the condition corrects up to 3-4 months as they grow and in others it gets worse. There is no screening test to avoid breeding PDA, other than not breeding with dogs with heart murmurs. Surgery before the heart is damaged works very well but most people would not spend $5000+ for testing and surgery and would put the puppy down. In the unlikely event that a puppy with PDA is sold most breeders would expect the owner to return the puppy or have it pts and would offer either a replacement or refund, when another puppy or the funds becoem available. This is what the specialist said about it being hereditary: This is a congenital defect. Poodles lines have been studied with PDA histories, and a hereditary mechanism has been proven in this breed. It also occurs more frequently in females. The presence of this defect requires changes to be made to the current breeding program. Both the sire and dam should also be assessed by a specialist via both auscultation and echocardiographic assessment for evidence of a PDA. Small PDAs are not always discernible via auscultation. Either the sire or the dam/or both a carriers for this defect. Not all carriers will have the phenotypic expression of the defect themselves. Unaffected siblings of this pup may also be carriers. I am happy to wait for the money when another litter is born instead of another pup which will be sometime next year. I guess we just hope the breeder keeps their word to that and oh well if not. I am still going to keep them upto date on Coco and send pictures as she grows up and gets new hair cuts and what not as I always have That quote from the specialist is correct but is not what you posted earlier. The siblings may be carriers or may be completely genetically free of the problem and therefore able to carry on the bloodline with no risk of the condition happening again. One of the parents is also likely to be completely normal so not breeding with either parent would be eliminating a perfectly normal dog from the gene pool. I hope Coco recovers after the surgery with no ill affects but I would be wary about doing surgery if there is already heart damage. I know of one puppy that already had too much damage by 3 months for surgery to be an option. If the blood flow reverses it causes damage that cannot be undone. Please give the breeder a little while to digest all this because it will probably have been a big shock to them if they have never encountered it before. Then ask them to consider a refund at some time when the funds are available. Hopefully they will be able to do this for you. I only hope that if there are any requests to use that particular dog at stud that the breeder mentions that this problem has occurred so bitch owners can make a fully informed decision rather than sweeping it under the carpet and hope it doesn't surface again. I know I have been told not to use certain dogs by those in the know but it makes me angry that to some registered breeders the $$$$ are more important than the long term welfare of the breed (not saying that is the case in this situation just generalising) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Well we contacted the breeders vet who has done all her litters so far just to let her know that she missed it on Coco's first consult and that it's now in the breeders lines so to look out for it. I am pretty sure breeder is not going to use the sire again but until an ultrasound is done on both parents they won't know which has it so it could be the Dam that has it and passed it down but they are blaming the sire so hopefully it was him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Well we contacted the breeders vet who has done all her litters so far just to let her know that she missed it on Coco's first consult and that it's now in the breeders lines so to look out for it. I am pretty sure breeder is not going to use the sire again but until an ultrasound is done on both parents they won't know which has it so it could be the Dam that has it and passed it down but they are blaming the sire so hopefully it was him. krysal&coco it is highly likely that BOTH dam and sire are heart clear and that an ultrasound will confirm that. Particularly if she heart tests breeding stock annually as should be the case. It is more than likely to have come down from previous generations. All she can really do is continue to monitor both parents and offspring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 Coco had her surgery today all went fairly well. The ductus was more fragile than expected and wider than it was longer so it tore a little causing slight bleeding which was sucessfully taken care of. However due to how fragile the ductus was the sutures could not be pulled as tight as usual I think so there may be little blood flow still going through it could have no affect at all but we will know next Wednesday on another ultrasound after she has a week recovery what is actually going on. They cannot risk going in again due to the tear and bleeding. They just called and says she is recovery really well and getting lots of cuddle hopefully she can come home tomorrow afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Here's hoping everything heals well, and that you can take her home Thinking of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Hope everything goes well for Coco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Also hoping for a good outcome for Coco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Coco got to come home today Looking pretty scruffy but is just sleeping and happy to be home. Going back to vet on Friday and again Wednesday hopefully all will be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 In recovery position on the couch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Poor little Coco!!! Hope she recovers well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Hope Coco heals quickly and then all will be well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Augustine Approved Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I am sorry to hear that your puppy has a heart murmur. While I cannot offer medical advice and as trivial as it may sound, I believe that love goes a long way. I once bought an 8 week old puppy that had a heart murmur and I was told she wouldn't make it past 6-8 months and surgery was not advised because her condition was too serious. Jessie died at age 5, a few days after I went overseas for a holiday. All money aside, enjoy spending time with the pup and continue to give her lots of love and attention she needs to live a long and fulfilling life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Wishing her happy healing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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