❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Well the breeder says these things happen not to get the surgery it is waste of time and money and to get real about it. She has offered to "replace" Coco with a 5 yr old dog she has or when she has another litter another puppy. This has really upset me I do not want another dog. Is it usual for breeders to do this? My partner says he doesn't think she will give me any of my money back even when she gets the reports. So I guess today is even worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Krystal sorry you have to deal with this, I guess she has offered to replace her which means nothing when you grow attached, it's not like returning a toaster. Although an expensive exercise at least you should get a full life out coco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 all breeders are different and will offer different things. Is this a disease that can be tested for before breeding? If so and the tests were not done then I would be very, very angry with both the breeder for not doing them and for me not knowing they should be done. And my gut reaction would be to sue the socks off her and the two vets that missed it. If this is a disease that can't be tested for then my reaction is different. As both buyer and seller. But as a breeder, if the disease is one that can't be tested, for I would refund your money and yes, also suggest your PTS the pup. And would consider what I would do about my vet who missed it. But I know very little about PDA except for what a quick google look told me so I have no idea on testing and how hard or easy it would be to pick up. What I do know is I would cry with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) at least you should get a full life out coco. it's a big 'should' .....what is a 'full' life? Quantity or quality? Sorry you were upset at the breeder's thoughts ..... it doesn't sound as if you are on the same wavelength. I hope all goes well for you & your pup ..thinking of you and Coco. I will say though, if it happened to a pup of mine, I would love it and spoil it and give it its wings when life quality started to deteriorate. Edited November 30, 2011 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) I haven't yet grasped why this pup was left until she was "severely underweight" and coughing before a vet visit. And even then taken only for desexing, not in relation to her failing health. I understand that earlier detection may not have made a difference, but seems very strange. Many breeders offer a replacement dog or puppy yes. Not all, as breeders are all individuals and respond differently to different situations. I can also imagine that many people are also hesitant to recommend expensive surgery that may not be successful - that's your choice to make as the dog's owner and no-one else should be expected to advise you other than the attending vet. A breeder can only take all reasonable steps to ensure a healthy pup is sold, and the clearance of two vets seems quite reasonable. It doesn't appear that this breeder has tried to deceive in any way at all, they sound very up front and honest. You paid for a healthy dog and the breeder took every reasonable step possible to provide that. When it became apparent that wasn't the case, they have offered full replacement - which they are not legally obliged to do anyway. I'm not sure what else you expect? Did you want them to pay for the surgery? Have you discussed with your vet whether surgery is in the dog's best interest welfare-wise? I hope so, as we need to sometimes make decisions with our heads and not our hearts. Edit to add - Rebanne, as far as I know it can't be tested for, but only selectively bred out when it appears. I'm no expert though! It is thought to be a polygenic condition. Edited November 30, 2011 by Alyosha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Edit to add - Rebanne, as far as I know it can't be tested for, but only selectively bred out when it appears. I'm no expert though! It is thought to be a polygenic condition. Thanks I have done a bit more googling as I was curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 The specialist said she will have a quality of life. Right now she is in no pain doesn't know any different as she was born with it without the operation in a few months she will start collapsing and find it hard to breathe and ultimately die. With the surgery after a few months she will feel even better than before the surgery and not know why as she doesn't realise she has the problem as she was born this way. She will have no cough, will breathe easier, put weight on and muscle and while playing, walking and going to the beach have even more energy than what she has now. I don't understand what is wrong with doing the surgery if she will live a long happy life? If it was only benefiting me to make me feel better and not her I wouldn't do it. But the specialist thoroughly went through everything all outcomes, procedure etc. He explained all other dog cases too. If it was an older dog it would be different but she is only 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 But the specialist thoroughly went through everything all outcomes, procedure etc. He explained all other dog cases too. If it was an older dog it would be different but she is only 6 months. if you have had everything explained to you and you know the risks and possible outcomes, both good and bad, then you do what you think is right for both you and your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Edit to add - Rebanne, as far as I know it can't be tested for, but only selectively bred out when it appears. I'm no expert though! It is thought to be a polygenic condition. This is my understanding as well. it's not like returning a toaster. Breeding dogs isn't like manufacturing a toaster either, sometimes when breeding, despite our best efforts, planning, hopes and dreams shit happens. Bad luck all round. When this defect happens with human babies they are called blue babies and we don't beat upon the parents for bringing them into the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Some people aren't willing to put a dog through such major surgery, it's an individual choice, you have said that she has a 90% chance of pulling through the surgery - what happens if she falls in the other 10%? You have to be prepared for the fact that you may be out thousands of dollars in surgery fees with no dog at the end of it. Obviously, I really really hope that doesn't happen! If you go ahead with the surgery, it sounds like you are, I wish you and your puppy the best for a long happy healthy future together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 The specialist said she will have a quality of life. Right now she is in no pain doesn't know any different as she was born with it without the operation in a few months she will start collapsing and find it hard to breathe and ultimately die. With the surgery after a few months she will feel even better than before the surgery and not know why as she doesn't realise she has the problem as she was born this way. She will have no cough, will breathe easier, put weight on and muscle and while playing, walking and going to the beach have even more energy than what she has now. I don't understand what is wrong with doing the surgery if she will live a long happy life? If it was only benefiting me to make me feel better and not her I wouldn't do it. But the specialist thoroughly went through everything all outcomes, procedure etc. He explained all other dog cases too. If it was an older dog it would be different but she is only 6 months. It sounds like you have been given good advice and information, I hope it all works out for you and your pup. Some people choose not to put animals through the surgery and its recovery when faced with serious conditions. It is very much an individual choice. Financially many people would have to think very hard before committing to the cost. I don't consider your choice wrong, but it may not by the one I would make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) The specialist said she will have a quality of life. Right now she is in no pain doesn't know any different as she was born with it without the operation in a few months she will start collapsing and find it hard to breathe and ultimately die. With the surgery after a few months she will feel even better than before the surgery and not know why as she doesn't realise she has the problem as she was born this way. She will have no cough, will breathe easier, put weight on and muscle and while playing, walking and going to the beach have even more energy than what she has now. I don't understand what is wrong with doing the surgery if she will live a long happy life? If it was only benefiting me to make me feel better and not her I wouldn't do it. But the specialist thoroughly went through everything all outcomes, procedure etc. He explained all other dog cases too. If it was an older dog it would be different but she is only 6 months. It sounds like you have been given good advice and information, I hope it all works out for you and your pup. Some people choose not to put animals through the surgery and its recovery when faced with serious conditions. It is very much an individual choice. Financially many people would have to think very hard before committing to the cost. I don't consider your choice wrong, but it may not by the one I would make. There are those that will pay anything to try to save their pets. There are those that would if they could but simply cannot afford it and really have no choice. They look at their family and expenses and cannot justify spending thousands on a pet. There are also those that feel an animal is simply not worth spending that much money on when another pet can be obtained. Yes, they are sad about it but they are pragmatic people who don't stand on heroics. Then there are those that simply feel spending that much on an animal is not justified. None are wrong. Everyone must do what feels right for them. Edited November 30, 2011 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrm88 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Just wanted to say that my grandmothers sheltie had a PDA go undiagnosed until he was 6 yrs old (it was a very small PDA which was the reason he hadnt died yet.) !!!! I was so incredibly angry that all the vets he had seen had never picked up his heart murmur (by the time he came in to my work for a checkup, it was a grade 4-5 murmur, whopping!!) We are unsure if the breeder knew or not as they rehomed him at about 4 months of age and they never mentioned anything to my grandmother. I tried contacting them to let them know, but never emailed back (even tho I know she is still breeding.) He had been castrated, vaccinated, etc etc. The only conclusion I came to was that they must have never listened to his heart because a PDA is a congential issue and it is there from birth. (either that or they were crap vets who dont know a murmur when they hear one...) Anyway! My point being, he underwent the PDA surgery at 6 yrs old (4.5k as well, luckily he had pet insurance who did cover it!) Even though we hadnt known he had an issue, his temperament changed dramatically! He became much more livelier and an all round happier dog, we always just thought he was a bit of a couch potatoe (was never unwell, just wasnt a crazy dog) I actually watched the surgery and it was fascinating to see how they fixed it! Hopefully your little girl has a successful surgery and goes on to live a happy life goodluck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrm88 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Oh by the way, it is not a major surgery anymore if you go to a specialist (in terms of recovery) A catheter is threaded up the femoral artery and then a balloon type device is basically put in place to shut off the PDA. My grandmothers dog was crate rested a week after the surgery to keep him quiet, but he recovered so incredibly well that you would not of known he had surgery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumof4girls Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Oh by the way, it is not a major surgery anymore if you go to a specialist (in terms of recovery) A catheter is threaded up the femoral artery and then a balloon type device is basically put in place to shut off the PDA. My grandmothers dog was crate rested a week after the surgery to keep him quiet, but he recovered so incredibly well that you would not of known he had surgery Wow that is amazing, glad to hear your grandmothers dog has come out of it so well and is like a new dog ( dare i say younger dog ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 at least you should get a full life out coco. it's a big 'should' .....what is a 'full' life? Quantity or quality? Sorry you were upset at the breeder's thoughts ..... it doesn't sound as if you are on the same wavelength. I hope all goes well for you & your pup ..thinking of you and Coco. I will say though, if it happened to a pup of mine, I would love it and spoil it and give it its wings when life quality started to deteriorate. I see it as a little bit of both. Clearly she loves her pet and if she's been given the ok by the specialist that this dog should live a reasonbly happy and healthy life it should see both quality AND quantity, no reason you can't have both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Oh by the way, it is not a major surgery anymore if you go to a specialist (in terms of recovery) A catheter is threaded up the femoral artery and then a balloon type device is basically put in place to shut off the PDA. My grandmothers dog was crate rested a week after the surgery to keep him quiet, but he recovered so incredibly well that you would not of known he had surgery I love this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 jrm88 - good explanation and first hand experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 I was going to take her to the vet about her cough but was told it was caused by soft palate which is very common in tiny dogs and is worse while on lead and wearing a collar and don't worry about it. As for her weight she is a toy poodle I just thought she was very small she is not rib showing and eats all her food her muscle just hasn't developed properly so she doesn't weigh much. I don't want the breeder to pay the vet bills at all I am happy to pay for the surgery to keep her. I just think if she is offering a replacement puppy why can she not give me back my money that I purchased for the dog. Which if I had to get her PTS because surgery was slim, her quality of life wouldn't be worth it I wouldn't want a replacement puppy I would want my money back! My partner and I are by no means wealthy it will be hard to come up with the money but in our decision that is not going to put into it, we will try come up with the money no matter how much it cost that should not be our reason to not let her live a long happy life. That is just how we feel about it and each to there own everybody makes a decision based on what suits them. We are discussing what is best for her she is booked in if we decide to do it and the specialist said while we discuss what to do if we have any questions to call him up and ask. We are filling ourselves with information on it my partner has even watched the procedure on youtube of it to see what she will go through. We are going to do what is right for her in the end not us that is what she deserves. She doesn't deserve to just be replaced because it is easier to do. Thank you jrm88 for telling us about your grandmothers shelti. My specialist also said the recovery is not that hard on them, she will be at the vet for 2-3days and then get to come home. Apparently after the first day of surgery they are wanting to go home and do usual things. I appreciate what everyone is saying and if more people have experienced this situation I would love to know. The more information we have the better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I've very sorry about your puppy I recently went through a similar situation but with a different condition. I found out that my young border collie has multiple liver shunts. I was looking at a $5-6000 operation to fix it but unfortunately it isn't operable and I can only treat her medically. It cost me $1500 to get the diagnosis and is costing around $100 for her food and medicine. I don't know how long she will live for. I was devastated. When I told the breeder she was sick with a liver problem, they just said that no other dogs in their lines had a problem. When I told them her diagnosis they didn't even reply. So I think your breeder has been pretty good. Hopefully they get the pups they kept checked out prior to breeding. The op for Amber didn't have very good odds even if I could have got it done but it sounds like your girl has a good chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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