Homozygous For The Bobtail Gene:

[Steve]

I havent looked at this for a while so Im a bit rusty so please correct me if Im wrong.

From memory - dogs which have the bobtailed gene have a bob tail because the bob tail is dominant.

Therefore there is no such thing really as a carrier [ one which carries the bobtail gene but doesnt have a bobtail]

That being the case if the intent is to ensure there is no meet up of the double bobtail because dogs with 2 copies

of this gene die pre birth surely all is well if they simply dont breed two dogs with a bobtail.

Now last time I looked we were up to about 15 generations past introduction of this gene and Im not convinced any dog which is born from one or even two bob tailed parents is suffering any health related issues more than any other dog or breed or more than the breed did prior to its introduction.

There are probably thousands of genes which when met up in vitrio cause death of the embryo including those which occur in humans which we havent tagged yet and anyone who breeds dogs long enough will face having a deformed or non viable pup which could be caused by all manner of things. Seems to me to be a bit of a beat up.

Bringing in the hairless gene into the conversation is a bit of a red herring because in that breed's case - again forgive me if Im wrong - the dogs with a long coat cannot be used for breeding and have to put on lilited register.

I would also like to say this sandgrubber - the place you are coming from in arguing that this gene was introduced for cosmetic purposes is not necessarily the case. At the time whether they were right or not breeders including me flet that it was going to be problematic for the breed to have to wear its long tail. You may not agree that they had a valid fear but I promise you that all of the people I met who were and still are breedingbobtailed boxers began doing that because they truly believed that thsi was what was best for the dogs of the breed and the breed in general. I chose to go the other way and not breed boxers at all after I bred one litter post ban because I believed I was breeding dogs destined to suffer . I cant answer for the motivation of the original matings but when that gene was being introduced to Australia it was already accepted on pedigrees and the breeders flet they were doing what was right for the dog and if any were caught up in the cosmetic side of it Ive never spoken with them.

Would the introduction of the gene to other breeds be about cosmetics ? You have to be pretty sure you have it right before you dub all peopel involved in that being motivated by the look and not because they beleive its inthe breed's best interests.

Steve....Firstly, Thank You for your post...the most sensible post I have read in regards to this subject but I wanted to comment on your saying "Therefore there is no such thing really as a carrier [ one which carries the bobtail gene but doesnt have a bobtail]"

Secondly, I know most of you are going shoot me down for what I am about say and it doesn't really matter. The fact is I have a bitch that WAS born a FULL tail and does CARRY the gene....I have had her DNA certified, but I can't tell you what the status of her parents were yet they produced 5/7 NBT all alive...I have mated my bitch twice, with a known full tail born male and an unknown status import. With these two litters my bitch produced 9 in the first litter. The first born was still born and to the naked eye the most perfect pup, beautifully marked and a short NBT. Why it was dead, who knows. From this same litter at 8 days old I had one of the pups develop Septic Arthritis and had him put down. From her second litter she produced 8 pups and one died hours after it was vet checked. Why? Who knows. In the first litter there were 6/9 NBT, 3 full tailed...The pups that didn't make it were 1 NBT and the other full tailed. In the Second litter 6/8 were NBT and the one that died was a NBT.

Her daughter from the first litter produced 7 pups, 7 alive 2 Full tailed and 5 NBT....again the sire's status unknown import. She was born NBT and is DNA certified. I don't know why my bitch carries the NBT gene, but she does and she produces NBT's with a full tailed sire and an unknown. Is she a freak of nature? Who knows! Wittnesses were present when she was born. Shoot me down.....it is what it is!!

About 20 years ago my neice had a byb litter of boxers - no such thing as a borgi back then and 3 of the pups had bob tails - go figure.

Thanks for that - thats very interesting I was of the belief it was a dominant thing.

Still born pups can happen in any litter - hard to pin it on this one thing - without a hell of a lot of comparative objective studies. In fact I recently had a beagle litter with exactly the same scenario. Looked like a perfect pup but still born- might have been in the spout too long or a what ever - it happens. No bob tail gene there. In fact over the years Ive had dogs which aborted part or whole litters, pups born which seemed to be perfect and died a day or two later - hell Ive even had some stiff ones. Some which had big litters some which had small - did they have small because some of the embryos got knocked out by some lethal gene combination or for some other reason? Who knows ?

Also had a boxer litter many years ago where one pup had to be PTS at 10 weeks due to deformed kidneys - I always blamed the idiot who sprayed the next door property with chemicals while she was pregnant but who knows.

The reality is that not all puppies survive out of all litters I guess thats why they have so many and we need to keep it all in perspective. 80% of all human miscarriages happen in the first trmester some of these would be due to a meet up of lethal genes too.

The other point is that this is a hot poltical potato some breeders hate the idea of bob tailed dogs and are motivated to beat it up and after umpteen generations are still yelling about crossbreeding and the whole PDE thing is looking for anything to tag any possible bad breeding practices for cosmetics.Animal rights flog into us at any opportunity. Fact is the more you can divide the people who are involved in the breeds the softer the target becomes. We need to be very careful when we wade into another breed's territory to offer critism or advice that we have a factual objective view and listen to the people who are breeding them, living with them and loving them. Do you seriously want me to believe that Dr C did all that work and took it down so many generations and that he would have allowed it to go to a registration point if he knew dogs were suffering because of this gene's insersion - nup - Im not buying it without more than Ive seen to back it up.

[Boxerheart]

I am not a fan of NBT in our breed, (But I do understand their are breeders out there doing what they think is best from their side of the fence so to speak.) There is always two sides to a story.

But I don't think we can call ourselves purebred dog breeders when any kennel club from any which country can allow it's members to designer dog breed for cosmetic reasons and without any approval from country of origin of the breed. Dr Cattenach did it purely for cosmetic reasons, a "flight of fancy" in his own words, and he even thought of introducing upright ears!

It appalls me that Dr Cattenach's flight of fancy now makes every Joe Blo want to cross their previously docked breed, and yes it is nothing but designer dog breeding.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Boxerheart

[Steve]

I hear you but this is a fault in the system and likely to be a bigger issue in future. Now the UKKC has opened its stud books any dog could have genes which are not purebred if its coming from the UKKC registry into this country.

The point Im trying to make is how long after the insertion of an outside gene do we remain concerned about it? fact is we know about this one gene in particular and can test for it.

[Boxerheart]

I hear you but this is a fault in the system and likely to be a bigger issue in future. Now the UKKC has opened its stud books any dog could have genes which are not purebred if its coming from the UKKC registry into this country.

The point Im trying to make is how long after the insertion of an outside gene do we remain concerned about it? fact is we know about this one gene in particular and can test for it.

And again it is the UKKC who think nothing of the rest of the world. The world will either accept it and move on or potentially not recognize countries that accept UK stock.

Then also we will also probably even have bigger issues with councils who will be able to question a breeds purity.

I wonder and this is my biggest concern, are the UKKC going to insist on mandatory health testing of any unregistered dogs they accept in our breeds.

[angelsun]

We have natural bob tails in my breed. not many..but it's happened. My pedigree has it and I look forward to the chance to produce one.

Yup...it's about the look. I like a docked/bobtail in my breed...I won't deny that, nor should I be chastised for admitting it. If I knew enough about genetics and how to capture this gene to continually create short tails, I damn well would...in a heartbeat!

My breed, traditionally was docked...like it or not..it is the history of the breed and I respect that. I get very frustrated and angry with the fanatics that have managed to remove this peice of history in 'form' from my breed (and others) because of their misguided information.

I embrace those that have pushed forward, inspite of a lot of pressure, to create the bobtail look that their breeds history held. I no further believe that a genetically created bob tail, is detrimental to the dogs health, or happiness or ability to communicate, as is a docked tail done at birth and without pain (banding)

I have two litters planned, one is due in the next month...there is a good chance there will be a natural bob tail...the pedigree shows the odds pretty high....the same with the next planned mating...

But then....I am hoping to produce another chocolate one day.....(another topic)

[Steve]

I hear you but this is a fault in the system and likely to be a bigger issue in future. Now the UKKC has opened its stud books any dog could have genes which are not purebred if its coming from the UKKC registry into this country.

The point Im trying to make is how long after the insertion of an outside gene do we remain concerned about it? fact is we know about this one gene in particular and can test for it.

And again it is the UKKC who think nothing of the rest of the world. The world will either accept it and move on or potentially not recognize countries that accept UK stock.

Then also we will also probably even have bigger issues with councils who will be able to question a breeds purity.

I wonder and this is my biggest concern, are the UKKC going to insist on mandatory health testing of any unregistered dogs they accept in our breeds.

Yes it does appear that testing will need to be done - if its mandatory for the breed.

Quote

every successful application will be admitted to the register with three asterisks next to its name. Asterisks will be applied for three further generations, in order to identify the fact that there is unknown or unregistered ancestry behind a dog.

Applications will need to be accompanied by a letter of explanation of how the applicant acquired the dog and will then only be considered on the proviso that the dog: a) is verified by two Championship level judges appointed by the Kennel Club who should agree that the dog is representative of its breed b) is DNA profiled c) has relevant health tests (equivalent to that required and recommended under the Kennel Club Accredited Breeder Scheme) for the breed. Breed specific health requirements under the ABS can be viewed at www.thekennelclub.org.uk/breedhealth

To ensure that only genuine applicants apply, strict requirements have been put in place that will need to be completed before an application is finally approved by the Committee, and in addition there will be an administration fee of £100 per dog. Every application will be considered on a case by case basis. Whilst the Kennel Club is keen to open up its register, it should be noted that there is no guarantee that dogs so registered (and their progeny) will be accepted for registration by overseas registering bodies. That will depend upon their local regulations. Application forms are available direct from the Registration Office on 0844 4633 980 Notes to Editors If a dog of unknown origin is accepted on the Breed Register, the dog’s registration will be annotated by three asterisks to indicate unverified origins. If it is bred from and mated to other fully registered dogs of the same breed (with no asterisks next to their name), their progeny, the F1 progeny, will also be annotated with three asterisks. If the F1 progeny are bred from, and mated to other fully registered dogs of the agreed breed (with no asterisks against their name), their progeny, the F2 progeny, will be annotated with two asterisks. F2 progeny mated to fully registered dogs of the agreed breed (with no asterisks against their name), will produce F3 progeny that will be registered with one asterisk. The F4 and subsequent generations will have no special annotation.

http://www.collienet.com/kennelclub_announcements.htm#unreg

[Boxerheart]

We have natural bob tails in my breed. not many..but it's happened. My pedigree has it and I look forward to the chance to produce one.

Yup...it's about the look. I like a docked/bobtail in my breed...I won't deny that, nor should I be chastised for admitting it. If I knew enough about genetics and how to capture this gene to continually create short tails, I damn well would...in a heartbeat!

My breed, traditionally was docked...like it or not..it is the history of the breed and I respect that. I get very frustrated and angry with the fanatics that have managed to remove this peice of history in 'form' from my breed (and others) because of their misguided information.

I embrace those that have pushed forward, inspite of a lot of pressure, to create the bobtail look that their breeds history held. I no further believe that a genetically created bob tail, is detrimental to the dogs health, or happiness or ability to communicate, as is a docked tail done at birth and without pain (banding)

I have two litters planned, one is due in the next month...there is a good chance there will be a natural bob tail...the pedigree shows the odds pretty high....the same with the next planned mating...

But then....I am hoping to produce another chocolate one day.....(another topic)

In your case it was already occurring in the breed.

In the case of Boxers the main issue is a Corgi was used. A Corgi has very different temperament, construction and coat to a Boxer. Many retain Corgi construction traits.

Tails are often set on low too as a Corgi's is this is to do with angulation of the croup). If construction is not right we do not have true Boxer movement. Temperament in those I have witnessed and others have witnessed in other Bobtails .. aggressive (please note I understand this does not mean they all are).

There are reports of long coats and ruffs still occurring, though I have not witnessed any.

The planes of the forehead are flatter and muzzles are longer and often incorrect (these points pointed out by an international judge who themselves bred bobtails.) There are nearly always kinks in bob tales or malformation. Some breeders are still docking their bobtails for the correct length though this is illegal.

Though there are no doubt going to be some very nice specimens out there... and as I said before, I am sure their breeders are doing what they think is right.

However, the rose coloured glasses have to come off both breeders and the judges if they want to bring up the standard of the BT's and not damage what we already have as a breed. Also need to stop being biased of dogs with long tails because they ARE the breed (they are not yesterdays rubbish).

Edited December 13, 2011 by Boxerheart