Penn Hip

[dannyBC]

What does everyone think of Penn Hip?? I do wonder if laxity affects different breeds differently??? There doesn't seem to be much research on many breeds. Any thoughts???

[Borderpower]

What does everyone think of Penn Hip?? I do wonder if laxity affects different breeds differently??? There doesn't seem to be much research on many breeds. Any thoughts???

I have used Penn Hip, and not had good results with them, The vet had told me me that Penn hip is the best of the best and the AVA old style with no longer be available soon as Australia is twitching to Penn Hip.

Now I will get Penn hip done and for an extra $110 I can get a second opinion, which is normally a different to the Penn hip reading..

[zenchel]

The vet had told me me that Penn hip is the best of the best and the AVA old style with no longer be available soon as Australia is twitching to Penn Hip.

There is a fair bit of twitching going on but Australia is NOT switching to PennHIP.

The ANKC/AVA Canine Hip and Elbow Dysplasia Scheme (CHEDS) will remain the accepted scheme for the forseeable future. Everybody is welcome to use PennHIP as an additional or alternative method for hip screening, however it is not accepted by the ANKC for breeds with Litter Registration Limitations.

Please understand that it is in the commercial interest of vets who have chosen to pay for a licence to be an accredited PennHIP provider to promote the PennHIP scheme.

Sylvia

[freundhund]

The ANKC/AVA scheme is recognised worldwide. A number of FCI and other countries do not recognise Penn-Hip.

If you look up on your search engine the origins of the Penn-Hip scheme, you will realise that it isn't suitable for all breeds of dogs. Plus you are basically sending money to an American University instead of keeping it in Australia.

[Stolzseinrotts]

There is a fair bit of twitching going on but Australia is NOT switching to PennHIP.

The ANKC/AVA Canine Hip and Elbow Dysplasia Scheme (CHEDS) will remain the accepted scheme for the forseeable future. Everybody is welcome to use PennHIP as an additional or alternative method for hip screening, however it is not accepted by the ANKC for breeds with Litter Registration Limitations.

Please understand that it is in the commercial interest of vets who have chosen to pay for a licence to be an accredited PennHIP provider to promote the PennHIP scheme.

Sylvia

Yep I am with Sylvia here, there may be a lot of talk that it will happen by those that use / do it / promote it, but it just WON'T happen!

Not something that I will use now or in the future.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Stolzseinrotts

[Fordogs]

That's a big NO from me also. We already have a GREAT SYSTEM that works well, Why change?

[dannyBC]

The ANKC/AVA scheme is recognised worldwide. A number of FCI and other countries do not recognise Penn-Hip.

If you look up on your search engine the origins of the Penn-Hip scheme, you will realise that it isn't suitable for all breeds of dogs. Plus you are basically sending money to an American University instead of keeping it in Australia.

Interesting that you found information on Penn hip not suitable for some breeds.. I can't find much on that, but will try searching again..

I have used Penn Hip on about 6 dogs & only one dog has a good result.???? But all 6 dogs are very sound & do Agility.... So I just wonder if certain breeds can cope with laxity better then others??

All very interesting..

[lils mum]

I have used Penn Hip, and not had good results with them, The vet had told me me that Penn hip is the best of the best and the AVA old style with no longer be available soon as Australia is twitching to Penn Hip.

...

I'm not sure who has told you that, but AFAIK ANKC health committee has not withdrawn support for current AVA/ANKC/BVA hip scoring scheme, and for dogs with registrations limited by the need for hip scoring, PennHIP is not acceptable. So I can't see how it will be 'no longer available soon'

I think this is the *hope* of some PennHIP practitioners, who have of course a financial interest in the spread of PennHIP

Not meaning to sound too cynical....

[lils mum]

There is a fair bit of twitching going on but Australia is NOT switching to PennHIP.

The ANKC/AVA Canine Hip and Elbow Dysplasia Scheme (CHEDS) will remain the accepted scheme for the forseeable future. Everybody is welcome to use PennHIP as an additional or alternative method for hip screening, however it is not accepted by the ANKC for breeds with Litter Registration Limitations.

Please understand that it is in the commercial interest of vets who have chosen to pay for a licence to be an accredited PennHIP provider to promote the PennHIP scheme.

Sylvia

Oh, thanks Sylvia , should have read further before I responded

:D

ETS - then I read your response fully and see that we are on the same page completely

Edited November 29, 2011 by lils mum

[lils mum]

I'd also like to comment on the practice of those that use PennHIP and then report their results ONLY as percentile results. To me this is meaningless, unless the breed is one which has a genepool pretty universally affected by HD

Percentile results don't tell us if the information is based on 4 dogs or 400 dogs. It is likely to alter over the years as more dogs are added to the database. AFAIK the PennHIP information indicates that it is the degree of laxity - ie the Distraction Index - which gives the information on the potential to develop arthritic change in the future, and is therefore the meaningful measure.

[dannyBC]

I'd also like to comment on the practice of those that use PennHIP and then report their results ONLY as percentile results. To me this is meaningless, unless the breed is one which has a genepool pretty universally affected by HD

Percentile results don't tell us if the information is based on 4 dogs or 400 dogs. It is likely to alter over the years as more dogs are added to the database. AFAIK the PennHIP information indicates that it is the degree of laxity - ie the Distraction Index - which gives the information on the potential to develop arthritic change in the future, and is therefore the meaningful measure.

My thoughts too.... Its not a good study under about 500 really.... On their home page they show a graph of only 1 dog with .7 DI & 1 dog with .8 DI in their study that showed 100% of those 2 dogs developed Arthritic changes..... Gee not enough to convince me that all dogs with a high DI of over .7 will definitely develop HD.????? OR more my question is??? Do all breeds fall into the same???

[Miranda]

I would never use PennHIP, it isn't held in high regard even in its country of origin. The vast majority of breeders use OFFA.

[freundhund]

The original Penn Hip system was based on 100 dogs, mainly greyhounds and beagles, with a few crossbreeds.

Most breeds have a scoring system for their breed where there are cutoff points and recommendations for how to lower the score. You also have to look at dogs and though the bones are the same shape in the hip pelvic girdle positions in breeds can vary.

The mean average score in GSD's is now around the 12 -13 mark well inside the breed cut off limit. Most breeders now not only use animals that have very low scores but now look at adding both parents scores together and unless the combined parent scores are under 12 a majority of breeders will not do a breeding.

There are no specific indicators or available scores made available to breed clubs from the Penn Hip scheme via the University of Pennsylvania and as such there is no point in any breed club supporting a scheme that doesn't assist breed clubs or breeders to improve their breeding stock.

[dannyBC]

The original Penn Hip system was based on 100 dogs, mainly greyhounds and beagles, with a few crossbreeds.

Most breeds have a scoring system for their breed where there are cutoff points and recommendations for how to lower the score. You also have to look at dogs and though the bones are the same shape in the hip pelvic girdle positions in breeds can vary.

The mean average score in GSD's is now around the 12 -13 mark well inside the breed cut off limit. Most breeders now not only use animals that have very low scores but now look at adding both parents scores together and unless the combined parent scores are under 12 a majority of breeders will not do a breeding.

There are no specific indicators or available scores made available to breed clubs from the Penn Hip scheme via the University of Pennsylvania and as such there is no point in any breed club supporting a scheme that doesn't assist breed clubs or breeders to improve their breeding stock.

Yes my point too... But I still want to know how a high DI will affect different breeds & I don't think this information is available.... I have 5 dogs here scored with both systems & only 1 has a good Penn hip score???? But all 5 have AVA scores between - 1 & 5 total?????

From a breeding point this is hard????? As one always wants to do the best.... Very confused...

[Janba]

The original Penn Hip system was based on 100 dogs, mainly greyhounds and beagles, with a few crossbreeds.

Most breeds have a scoring system for their breed where there are cutoff points and recommendations for how to lower the score. You also have to look at dogs and though the bones are the same shape in the hip pelvic girdle positions in breeds can vary.

The mean average score in GSD's is now around the 12 -13 mark well inside the breed cut off limit. Most breeders now not only use animals that have very low scores but now look at adding both parents scores together and unless the combined parent scores are under 12 a majority of breeders will not do a breeding.

There are no specific indicators or available scores made available to breed clubs from the Penn Hip scheme via the University of Pennsylvania and as such there is no point in any breed club supporting a scheme that doesn't assist breed clubs or breeders to improve their breeding stock.

Yes my point too... But I still want to know how a high DI will affect different breeds & I don't think this information is available.... I have 5 dogs here scored with both systems & only 1 has a good Penn hip score???? But all 5 have AVA scores between - 1 & 5 total?????

From a breeding point this is hard????? As one always wants to do the best.... Very confused...

A link that might interest you on how sublaxation may actually help a BC or similar dog in its intended work.

http://stilhope.com/writings/hips.html

My BC who does primarily work sheep has a score of 1-1 with the score being in thet acetabular fossa (SP), which is normally associated with wear and tear. Has he got this score from the damage caused by twisting and turning when working? Not Pennhip I know.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Janba

[freundhund]

I do know that a number of GSD people in the USA who did Penn Hip scheme at a young age got rid of puppies that failed and then found that people who put litter brothers and sisters thru the SV scheme had puppies that passed. The SV scheme is a highly respected scheme in which GSD's from all over Europe participate. Since these results have happened a number of US breeders continue to Penn Hip but run puppies on until they have the puppies final X-Ray done at 2 years of age.

I don't recommend the Penn Hip scheme to any of my puppy buyers and when I am asked by the general public with regards to it I try to explain my points of view. When I first heard of Penn Hip approximately 10 years ago, I did a lot of research into the scheme to see if it would or could improve my breeding program. I was very unimpressed with what I found via internet searches and talking to various breeders in the USA, I have not found anything since to change my views on the Penn Hip scheme.

[dannyBC]

The original Penn Hip system was based on 100 dogs, mainly greyhounds and beagles, with a few crossbreeds.

Most breeds have a scoring system for their breed where there are cutoff points and recommendations for how to lower the score. You also have to look at dogs and though the bones are the same shape in the hip pelvic girdle positions in breeds can vary.

The mean average score in GSD's is now around the 12 -13 mark well inside the breed cut off limit. Most breeders now not only use animals that have very low scores but now look at adding both parents scores together and unless the combined parent scores are under 12 a majority of breeders will not do a breeding.

There are no specific indicators or available scores made available to breed clubs from the Penn Hip scheme via the University of Pennsylvania and as such there is no point in any breed club supporting a scheme that doesn't assist breed clubs or breeders to improve their breeding stock.

Yes my point too... But I still want to know how a high DI will affect different breeds & I don't think this information is available.... I have 5 dogs here scored with both systems & only 1 has a good Penn hip score???? But all 5 have AVA scores between - 1 & 5 total?????

From a breeding point this is hard????? As one always wants to do the best.... Very confused...

A link that might interest you on how sublaxation may actually help a BC or similar dog in its intended work.

http://stilhope.com/writings/hips.html

My BC who does primarily work sheep has a score of 1-1 with the score being in thet acetabular fossa (SP), which is normally associated with wear and tear. Has he got this score from the damage caused by twisting and turning when working? Not Pennhip I know.

Thanks that article is great & interesting..... Very much along the lines of what I was thinking too. I wonder if there are other articles & research in this same area... It would be interesting to Penn Hip a large number of working BC's to see what they come up with...

[mersonmalinois]

PennHip is not well thought of here in the USA. They (the PennHip people) won't diagnose if a dog does or does not have HD, they just tell about the laxity...um, why not just tell if the dog is dysplastic based on the radiographs?? Also, they do not have an open database whereas the OFA does. That information is useful for breeders/owners to learn all they can about the bloodlines.

Anyway, not a scheme I use. I prefer OFA.

[dannyBC]

PennHip is not well thought of here in the USA. They (the PennHip people) won't diagnose if a dog does or does not have HD, they just tell about the laxity...um, why not just tell if the dog is dysplastic based on the radiographs?? Also, they do not have an open database whereas the OFA does. That information is useful for breeders/owners to learn all they can about the bloodlines.

Anyway, not a scheme I use. I prefer OFA.

Very interesting...... Problem here is there are Vets now recommending pet owners Penn Hip score at 16weeks.... Then if there is laxity... They are telling the owners their puppy has HD....& scaring the hell out of them..

[freundhund]

Very interesting you saying about vets recommending Penn Hip, there are so few vets that have paid the fee to train to do Penn Hi. I believe there is only a handful of vets trained here in NSW.