Bullbreedlover Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 OK so currently in Australia, baby puppies do not enter the Best Dog or Best Bitch line up. Has it ever been this way.( Have only been in Australia for nearly 5 years so I am not sure). I fully realise that Baby puppies should not be awarded a challenge certificate, but should they be allowed in the line up for a challenge yet just be classed as "not eligible" if they are awarded Best Dog or Best Bitch.Still also compete for Best of Breed and further on. Let me explain further. Baby puppies at shows can be and are prime examples of their breed even though they may only be 4, 5 or just under 6 months of age. Lets not forget you are judging them on the day. Why shouldnt they be eligible to compete against the older dogs and bitches for an award of Best of Breed. An award of not eligible for a challenge is completely different to being non awarded a challenge. This show regulation has been in force in NZ for many years. Why wouldnt it work here? Why cant a Baby puppy be awarded Best Dog?Bitch and or Best or Reserve of Breed and go further in the show, than just baby puppy in Show. Why do many clubs(not all) charge the same fee for a Baby puppy class as they do a regular eligible class, when baby puppies here dont go any further. Is this fair. What do people think about baby puppies being awarded a Best Dog/bitch or even further awards at shows. Please lets have a civil adult discussion about this. I know babies should be babies and it is up to each exhibitor as to whether or not they enter but I seriously think baby puppies are not getting a fair deal here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebbles Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Been in the show world in Victoria for over 50years and babies haven't been in the CC line up to my knowledge. Personally I wouldn't like to see them included for a number of reasons. As an exhibitor I like to see bubs having a bit of fun in the ring and the CC line can get rather serious. To go into their class then often around again for best baby of breed, then (hopefully lol) in again for baby in group I reckon is enough for a young'un to experience when starting out and there's often a baby sweepstakes as well. As a retired Judge, I know you are judging on the day but I wouldn't have liked to be considering babies for CC's. Some breeds at 6 months are nearly looking mature but other breeds are still very much babies and all are still bubs at 3 months. JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) One of the things with a male baby puppy is that it doesn't have to have its testis descended. If allowed in the challenge line up it would be theoretically possible for a monorchid pup to get its championship now the requirement for 25 points being obtained over 12 months has been lifted (as I am sure I read recently.) Edited to change 6 months to 12 months. Edited November 24, 2011 by Janba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havasneeze Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) One of the things with a male baby puppy is that it doesn't have to have its testis descended. If allowed in the challenge line up it would be theoretically possible for a pup monorchid pup to get its championship now the requirement for 25 points being obtained over 6 months has been lifted (as I am sure I read recently.) The system in place in NZ is that babies may take part in the Challenge line up, can be awarded the Challenge and Best of Breed but they DO NOT garner any points for this... I see it as a back handed way of non awarding, if you want to non award a dog, have the guts to do it and tell the exhibitor why you think their dog is not worthy of the Challenge!!! after all, the exhibitor has paid for the Judges opinion Edited November 24, 2011 by Havasneeze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 One of the things with a male baby puppy is that it doesn't have to have its testis descended. If allowed in the challenge line up it would be theoretically possible for a pup monorchid pup to get its championship now the requirement for 25 points being obtained over 6 months has been lifted (as I am sure I read recently.) The system in place in NZ is that babies may take part in the Challenge line up, can be awarded the Challenge and Best of Breed but they DO NOT garner any points for this... I see it as a back handed way of non awarding, if you want to non award a dog, have the guts to do it and tell the exhibitor why you think their dog is not worthy of the Challenge!!! after all, the exhibitor has paid for the Judges opinion What a cop out. If the dog is up to challenge it should be awarded points. Mant pups under 6 months are not mature enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Why do many clubs(not all) charge the same fee for a Baby puppy class as they do a regular eligible class, when baby puppies here dont go any further. Lots of dogs don't go any further. One run a round the ring and that's it. Clubs still have to pay for the same things as other classes, the only exception being a challenge certificate. Still got to pay for judges, stewards, place ribbons, etc etc I've had my babies judged recently by some lovely judges and all treated the job seriously and were great with the pups. Most took their time, well over their time to judge, the babies and critique them! I was thrilled to bits and am happy to pay full fee for quality judging. But no way should they be ever part of a challenge line up. Baby puppy is a way for them to gain experience in the ring, where often the only reward the person gets is the satisfaction that the baby at least moved! To have a baby squirming and maybe getting sour in the line up is not a good move and would not make you popular with the other exhibitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarracully Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I fully realise that Baby puppies should not be awarded a challenge certificate, but should they be allowed in the line up for a challenge yet just be classed as "not eligible" if they are awarded Best Dog or Best Bitch.Still also compete for Best of Breed and further on. Personally If I knew that my baby puppy could go in challenge line up but was going to be classed as not eligible I wouldn't bother putting it in the lineup. I'd leave it out and focus on one of my others (if they also got to the lineup). I can't see the point in taking the dog in when you already know it won't get anywhere. I'm all for them staying out of the challenge. I only enter baby puppy class to let the new ones get used to being handled and walking in the ring. Its all for experience with mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underfoot Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Babies also get tired easily and running them around a ring many times takes a lot out of them. Plus could you imagine a baby dally trying to move at the speed of the bigger dalmatians? Not possible and could have many running up each others bottoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) The system works OK in NZ and I don't have an issue with it either way really. Often the judge will just have a little play with the baby, sometimes they will run them. Yes it can be a easy way out of avoiding refusing a CC, give best of sex to the baby and it's not entitled to the CC so no one can whinge about the excuse given. I can see why it wouldn't be ideal in some cases in Australia where it's a LOT hotter and in some breeds the numbers are much larger (so making for a long day for a baby anyway). I've had a number of dogs over the years awarded best of sex while babies (in good sized line ups) and they have all gone on to title and a couple have later won under the same judge when older so I can only suppose in these particular cases the judges did genuinely like them even though they were very young, but I have been to some shows where the baby has been best of sex and the adults are frankly woeful so you have to wonder if these were examples of the judge taking the easy way out Edited November 28, 2011 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topoftheheap Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I don't think so. If there not eligible for cc points anyway there really is no point. Last show my baby puppy was in the ring so many times! Sweeps, then class, then breed, then group, then show!!! albeit i know that doesn't happen everytime it makes it such a big day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 If fact I often wish I could keep my (rarer) breed out of the Group line up. Poor chappy gets so bored having to be good that sometimes he is destroyed for his age class. I would happily not line up before Junior if I had the choice. Smaller/faster maturing breeds would cope better I am sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 No I don't think they should be. Having said that I have only even known our system and it seems to work to me. There is the possibilty of class in group and in show awards to be won by young puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Like Sandra777, we know the two systems. Been there done that. And to be very honest I prefer that the baby puppy is eligible to come into the lne up for Best dog/bitch. It should never ever be a cop out for a judge to simply put up a baby because they thought the other dogs in the ring were horrible and if they can justify their decision then that is all good. In judging I have refused challenges. I have no problem in doing so and would always justify my decision. ALot of judges do take time with babies and rightly so. I have paid my money to be judged so why shouldnt we be up there with the big guys. If babies get tired easily then why show them as a baby? Another run in the ring is nothing. To be honest I love to see babies in the line up. Especially when they are beautiful examples of their breed. So they are not mature? Neither are the minors, puppies or even juniors. They still get a CC from the judge if awarded.That shouldnt have anything to do with it. The fact that they are not eligible for a challenge because of their age doesnt mean they are rfused one. That is a totally different story. We have had a 5 month old baby British Bulldog go right through to win Best of Group and Reserve Best in Show at an All Breeds show back in NZ. Did we tire her out? Heck no. She was up there with the best of them for the whole day. Did we create a stir. Oh heck yeah. But she was eligible and she went right through. I guess it is up to the exhibitor whether or not they show, but it would be nice to be able to be in the line up if you have a beautiful baby. People may think differently if the try the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
experiencedfun Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I have no problem with the NZ model of babies coming in for the line up. Several years ago I awarded Best Dog to a baby when judging over there, he was by far the most outstanding specimen of his breed in that line up and I would happily have signed the challenge certificate to say that I believe he is a dog worthy of the title NZ Champ. Earlier this month I did a specialty in NZ and it was lovely seeing 10 dogs in a challenge line up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 I have no problem with the NZ model of babies coming in for the line up. Several years ago I awarded Best Dog to a baby when judging over there, he was by far the most outstanding specimen of his breed in that line up and I would happily have signed the challenge certificate to say that I believe he is a dog worthy of the title NZ Champ. Earlier this month I did a specialty in NZ and it was lovely seeing 10 dogs in a challenge line up. That would of been awesome. And that is what it is all about. Judging and placing a specimen of the breed that excells even though it is only a baby. We all strive to improve our stock and if a baby is good enough to win on the day then good on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 can the BOB baby compete for group /BIS?? I say no babies are babies & its a fun time for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 can the BOB baby compete for group /BIS?? I say no babies are babies & its a fun time for them They certainly can. Our baby took out Best of Non Sporting group and then won Reserve Best in Show. But then she was a stunning baby and went on to be one of the most awarded Bulldog bitches in NZ in her time. Some babies hate the show ring LOL and people still drag them out and then some just love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 It obviously can work in some instances regardless of how many negative opinions there might be if a baby went up. I for one don't see much of an issue with it - it is down to the individual to decide if they think the baby can handle the multiple runs. I for one try to make it fun for a puppy whether in baby, minor or puppy. the fun doesn't stop when they hit those classes anyway. I still play with them and don't expect them to be robots at those ages, and if a judge doesn't like that, well, we lose but at least it was fun. if it did happen here, I'd like the option to be able to pull a baby for challenge line up and beyond without having to withdraw from the age class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 It's very intersting hearing peoples opinion on this topic. It does however, make me wonder why then that we hear so many teeth grinding when a Minor or Puppy is awarded the CC? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PomsNZ Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I do think a baby should be in the line up. As for distance/speed its up to the exhibitors NOT to run up the backside of someone, you can run around them... Bigger dogs can take bigger circles, smaller dogs can take smaller circles... Babies love it, they have to be in line up when they go into puppy stakes so they have to learn anyways. I had a instance where we had a baby puppy that was awarded best dog over much older dogs, but he was a very good example. He won Rerserve of breed, then went onto win baby puppy in show. I love how the babies are given as much equality to the other dogs here in NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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