Can The Bulldog Be Saved?

[sandgrubber]

I don't know a lot about BB's and am willing to believe some breeders are a lot more careful about health than others. It's true for most breeds. Given the high price for BB's, seems like there may be quite a few people who will breed from any entire bitch they can get.

If you accept that there is a problem with some breeders, why not expand your pedigrees to include hip/elbow scores and birth/death years for as many generations back as you can (eg, put 2001-2011 for a dog who died this year, and 2004- for a dog who was born in 2004 and was still living when the pedigree was issued?

The PDE comment that US breeders claim their dogs are healthier than UK dogs, but offer no longevity data, is a valid point. True for all breeds, but especially so for breeds with major health concerns (I can't dismiss the horrid hip/elbow scores for the BB in the OFA database and the rumors of high mortality), it would be good to have better transparency about health over the dog's whole lifetime.

[becks]

I think the only way a change would occur is if the standard was changed though. Those who show and who probably breed the most are stuck following a standard which might not be doing the dogs any favours. What does it take to change a standard? Petitions or vet reports? It probably also takes the breeders to want to change their dog which probably wouldn't happen without a fight with the majority?

The UK breed standard was changed a few years ago and healthier dogs are out there and winning and they can run around a ring and even do agility (maybe not fast enough to be competitive, but they can get around a course without collapsing!)

[Bullbreedlover]

I think the only way a change would occur is if the standard was changed though. Those who show and who probably breed the most are stuck following a standard which might not be doing the dogs any favours. What does it take to change a standard? Petitions or vet reports? It probably also takes the breeders to want to change their dog which probably wouldn't happen without a fight with the majority?

The UK breed standard was changed a few years ago and healthier dogs are out there and winning and they can run around a ring and even do agility (maybe not fast enough to be competitive, but they can get around a course without collapsing!)

The healthy dogs were already out there before the KC bowed down to pressure and changed the Standard. But of course in order to be seen to be doing the right thing in the "public's" eye , they said changes had to be made. As in any breed you get healthy dogs and unhealthy ones.

The breeders did have input. They didnt want change. There was no need for change. The KC implemented the sutle changes as a knee jerk reaction. At the end of the day, the breeders opinions were passed over by the KC. In their eyes one must be seen to be doing the right thing, because animal rights do-gooders and the Press ultimately have the last word.

In regards to the changes, it comes down to once again, interpretating the Standard.

ANKC have agreed to not make these changes. But yes, breeders MUST continue to breed healthy dogs. But not lose sight of breed type.

[Roova]

If you accept that there is a problem with some breeders, why not expand your pedigrees to include hip/elbow scores and birth/death years for as many generations back as you can (eg, put 2001-2011 for a dog who died this year, and 2004- for a dog who was born in 2004 and was still living when the pedigree was issued?

...... it would be good to have better transparency about health over the dog's whole lifetime.

I can see how it would help weed out BYB's and unethical breeders. It seems so obvious to have some form of recognising healthy pedigrees to help show what type of dog you might end up with. It's amazing it's not included now.

It seems the most expensive breeds tendto be the ones harder to breed because of larger heads and narrow pelvis's (a lot of the brachycephalic breeds). These also seem to be more likely to end up with health problems plaguing them or have to lead specialised lives because of health limitations.

Where BYB's or unethical breeders infer they have healthy stock this would at least prove it. I came across an ad for a French Bulldog a while back, advertised for $3000. I knew from the wording on the ad the breeder was a BYB'er but I couldn't help myself and asked what health testing the parents had had. This is the person's reply:

Hi, I have not done health test on the parents,but the only time i have to go to the vets,is when the grils have a c-section,the parent are very healthy as they run around in the back yard and are fine,here is photos of parents and i stand by my breeding.

They might look healthy now, but who knows whats in their genetic history? I think the general public presume if they spend a lot of money on a purebred dog they must be buying a good / healthy dog, whether its from a BYB or a registered breeder. A breeder 'saying' they have healthy stock is one thing, but to be able to prove it is another.

It would be hard making it happen though. How would information get back to the right people? Vets and pounds would have to be heavily involved with passing on PTS reasons for microchipped dogs. Would the public who've bought unwanted puppies from show litters be asked to contact a central registry to pass on death details when it happens? You wouldn't want this going via the breeder, just in case I presume. The pedigree would have to show accidental death too, as a dog being hit by a car could show an unnaturally short life. I can see this would be very hard to make happen

[Steve]

We have introduced a system which is collecting this kind of information and is added to the pedigrees .We have invited pet owners who have papered dogs [ main or limited] and rescue who obtain papered dogs as well as breeders to supply us with that info and we add it into our pedigree system. It also keeps notes on scores, test results, reactions to drugs, vaccines, immune system issues etc and what type of job etc the dogs did - including age of death and cause of death. The only thing anyone can gain from an ANKC pedigree at this time is where the champions are so the more info we can build the better chance we have to ensure future generations. this gives us info on all dogs in the pedigree including thOse which have not been used for breeding to enable us to see patterns and spot problems to steer away from etc. Not everyone thinks this is a good thing but we are gathering a fair amount of info which will be able to help if someone wants to use it especially as we are not just relying on breeder input.

Information has never been easy to gather - its relied on honesty and memory, word of mouth,gossip etc. and being able to have this info is the best tool any breeder can use to build the profile and choose dogs to breed with.

However, in this breed's case the problems are associated with conformation rather than genetic diseases and we cant just hope that some magic DNA test or score will help us to select breeding stock and the answer to that will come from breed standard interpretation and trying to control breeders who dont care about future generations and only see the money in the one they are producing.

You get what you select for and loose those things you dont consider important . Is it important to have a free whelping bitch if her puppies become champions, or if her puppies can run around the block without dropping or if her puppies live 10 years longer than average for the breed? A judge can consider some things on the day and the better interpretation of the standard can be used to turn it around but its also about other things the judge isnt able to know too. Having breeders with different goals is good for a breed overall but with such a heavy push toward assuming anyone who doesnt show their dogs must be the bad guy and couldnt be working on a different primary goal which they think is good for the breed its going to be an uphill push because it means there is no where to go when you are in a corner.

[dancinbcs]

I don't know a lot about BB's and am willing to believe some breeders are a lot more careful about health than others. It's true for most breeds. Given the high price for BB's, seems like there may be quite a few people who will breed from any entire bitch they can get.

This is were most of the problems are. I know someone that recently bought a 5 week old supposed BB puppy. It was almost all white, so possibly deaf and the skin looked very inflammed. Apart from it being far too young to be sold and looking very unhealthy, it was definitely not the purebred Bulldog it was supposed to be. God only knows what they paid for this BYB crossbred as it was sold as a BB. I saw photos of it on FB the day they brought him home and urged them to return him to where they got him immediately and get their money back.

It seems I spoilt their excitement about getting a puppy, so they unfriended me. As long as buyers will blindly part with huge amounts of cash without checking even the most basic facts about the breeder, breeds like Bulldogs will suffer and sadly the whole breed gets labelled as unhealthy.

[Steve]

Well if thats true and the whole breed isnt unhealthy then its time we promoted that fact to enable the public to see that dogs bred by good breeders are not suffering from these issues.

For now all I see is a barrage of info about how unhealthy they are and how poor interpretation of the standard has contributed - no one counteracting that with any evidence to show otherwise.

The public info being presented is saying show breeders are most responsible but show breeders blame those who only breed for money and who dont care about the standard.

Based on the info that has been presented you can hardly blame the public for thinking they should go somewhere other than a show breeder to buy a BB puppy and until there is some info out there to tell them other wise its hard to see much will change.

[Gayle.]

What's the average lifespan of a healthy, well bred British Bulldog?

[sandgrubber]

What's the average lifespan of a healthy, well bred British Bulldog?

Good question without a good answer.

We need more transparency and better data collection, especially for breeds like the BB with extreme conformation, high prices, and long departure from the breed's supposed 'job'. (When was the last time one of these guys was set against a bull?)

Personally, I think the PDE crowd has a problem with wrinkles, and I could tolerate 'Ceasar required' conformation if the problem was made clear and didn't involve the creation of dogs that were doomed to short, painful lives, with pain in walking/running.

[aussielover]

But do 'typey sound healthy British Bulldogs' win at shows?

I don't have the answer I just pose inane questions ;) but they are what people are thinking.

Without type a dog is merely a dog. Type is what best describes a breed.

Could you elaborate on this?

I don't quite understand the meaning of "type"

For example I think most people can see the difference between show and working line breeds eg. GSDs, Labs, Setters etc but both "types" can easily be identified as the correct breed. But why is only one "type" rewarded in the show ring?

As another example, my pet labrador is hardly a potential show winner, yet most people correctly identify her as a labrador. Are you saying she is "merely a dog" and not a "labrador retriever" because she lacks (show-winning) type?

[sandgrubber]

But do 'typey sound healthy British Bulldogs' win at shows?

I don't have the answer I just pose inane questions ;) but they are what people are thinking.

Without type a dog is merely a dog. Type is what best describes a breed.

Could you elaborate on this?

I don't quite understand the meaning of "type"

For example I think most people can see the difference between show and working line breeds eg. GSDs, Labs, Setters etc but both "types" can easily be identified as the correct breed. But why is only one "type" rewarded in the show ring?

As another example, my pet labrador is hardly a potential show winner, yet most people correctly identify her as a labrador. Are you saying she is "merely a dog" and not a "labrador retriever" because she lacks (show-winning) type?

Not taking a position. But be I've found sometimes 'type' means pushing to the showing extremes (eg, for Labbies, big boofy head and big bones, and the classic 'look', exaggerated. sometimes at the expense of temperament and health). I'd much rather see the catch word 'balanced' than the catch word 'type'. To me the intelligence, temperament, and mental profile of a Lab are more important than ear-set, tail-set and 'boofy' look, and I think the way a dog moves is equally as important as how it is shaped (which I guess means I do care about angulation).

Edited November 26, 2011 by sandgrubber

[~Anne~]

Head firmly in sand with this breed and one or two others.

I was smacked by Troy for saying a similar thing in the past so I think I'll just leave it at that.

[Bullbreedlover]

But do 'typey sound healthy British Bulldogs' win at shows?

I don't have the answer I just pose inane questions ;) but they are what people are thinking.

Without type a dog is merely a dog. Type is what best describes a breed.

Could you elaborate on this?

I don't quite understand the meaning of "type"

For example I think most people can see the difference between show and working line breeds eg. GSDs, Labs, Setters etc but both "types" can easily be identified as the correct breed. But why is only one "type" rewarded in the show ring?

As another example, my pet labrador is hardly a potential show winner, yet most people correctly identify her as a labrador. Are you saying she is "merely a dog" and not a "labrador retriever" because she lacks (show-winning) type?

Hi aussielover

Not ignoring you but have just been busy.

Type is what best describes a breed.

Here is a paragraph or two from a great book.

Just as we do today, dog owners gathered with their dogs to discuss type: and quite often someone particularly familiar with the dogs duties as well as the dogs themselves would be called upon to decide which dog present appeared best suited to perform its appointed work.

Today the dog which most closely resembles its standard both in disposition and appearance is the most typical of a certain kind of dog developed for a particular purpose:it has type.Frm this point of view, the Bulldogs roll is as sound as the Shepherds driving walk:the bent legs of the Pekingese are also as sound as the straight forelegs of the Fox Terrier. For without these various physical and mental conformations, each breed could not fulfill its varied services for mankind.

The Bulldog world downunder in NZ has just been thrown into a bit of turmoil. Ethics ethics ethics.

So sad

[Bullbreedlover]

But do 'typey sound healthy British Bulldogs' win at shows?

I don't have the answer I just pose inane questions ;) but they are what people are thinking.

Without type a dog is merely a dog. Type is what best describes a breed.

Could you elaborate on this?

I don't quite understand the meaning of "type"

For example I think most people can see the difference between show and working line breeds eg. GSDs, Labs, Setters etc but both "types" can easily be identified as the correct breed. But why is only one "type" rewarded in the show ring?

As another example, my pet labrador is hardly a potential show winner, yet most people correctly identify her as a labrador. Are you saying she is "merely a dog" and not a "labrador retriever" because she lacks (show-winning) type?

Hi aussielover

Not ignoring you but have just been busy.

Type is what best describes a breed.

Here is a paragraph or two from a great book.

Just as we do today, dog owners gathered with their dogs to discuss type: and quite often someone particularly familiar with the dogs duties as well as the dogs themselves would be called upon to decide which dog present appeared best suited to perform its appointed work.

Today the dog which most closely resembles its standard both in disposition and appearance is the most typical of a certain kind of dog developed for a particular purpose:it has type.Frm this point of view, the Bulldogs roll is as sound as the Shepherds driving walk:the bent legs of the Pekingese are also as sound as the straight forelegs of the Fox Terrier. For without these various physical and mental conformations, each breed could not fulfill its varied services for mankind.

The Bulldog world downunder in NZ has just been thrown into a bit of turmoil. Ethics ethics ethics.

So sad

Further to that aussielover.

I am not saying that your dog is lacking in type.

There are different types of dogs which get awarded in the show ring.

Your lab will have characteristics pertaining to the labrador breed, even though she may or may not win in the ring.

We had an Australian Kelpie who was first and foremost a working dog. Completely different type to the working line over here, and in my opinion he actually was a more typey dog to the standard because his characteristics were more true. He had the brush tail, he had a ruff and he excelled in the show ring and in the paddock

[Greytmate]

Here is a paragraph or two from a great book.

Just as we do today, dog owners gathered with their dogs to discuss type: and quite often someone particularly familiar with the dogs duties as well as the dogs themselves would be called upon to decide which dog present appeared best suited to perform its appointed work.

Today the dog which most closely resembles its standard both in disposition and appearance is the most typical of a certain kind of dog developed for a particular purpose:it has type.Frm this point of view, the Bulldogs roll is as sound as the Shepherds driving walk:the bent legs of the Pekingese are also as sound as the straight forelegs of the Fox Terrier. For without these various physical and mental conformations, each breed could not fulfill its varied services for mankind.

What year was that written in?

[raineth]

what do the bent legs of the pekingese do?

I have never actually seen a pekingese, so didn't know there legs were bent.

[sandgrubber]

My first Labrador was said to be typey and 'a good type', also show quality. She didn't like water and wouldn't fetch. Hence my cynicism about the word.

[GeckoTree]

World wide I doubt the bulldog could be saved from oblivion, regionally is another matter.

J.

If the bulldog looks like a whippet or jabba da hut its still a bull dog by name know what i'm saying.