Grand Champions & (new Title) Supreme Champions

[Dogsfevr]

I didn't say ''beat other dogs''

"Placed before" is entirely different.

Dogs that haven't been placed before an other entrant don't deserve the title is my opinion, set in stone.

Edit:- one competitor with two entries doesn't count for much either. IMO

Dedication?

Dedication is turning up & competing with expectation, not certainty.

The gentle applause when a judge actually has the balls to non award regular single dog entries tells the story.

Genuine question here. IN YOUR OPINION should I then stop showing my dogs until there are more of the breed available to show against? What do you expect those of us with rarer breeds to do? As I have said earlier there are no more than 10 Fauves being exhibited Australia wide and only 30 in total in the country.

if my opinion re tougher criterior for titles was reality it would be up to you if you continued.

It would be interesting to see if people with unpopular breeds actually stuck to it if the titles weren't so easy to gain.

Really interesting.

And the same doesn't apply with popular breeds where you see large entries with a greater percentage of rubbish shown & extra points gained because of a greater number of poor examples ?

I have shown both aspects & currently now show the only example of my breed,he is a grand/multi BIS winner & group winner in 3 states ,this year i have spent over $1500 flying the dogs to comp.

Would you do that Stone??

I am not a believer of entering scrubbers to gain bonus points or to make people think i have beaten others who where poor quality,one good example is all it requires

If people with rare /minority breeds ceased showing then the dog world is the one that suffers,why breed if you can't gain the same privelages in the ring as those who are popular ??

What is popular??One states popular is another states minority/rare breed so if that was the case the rule of "lack of comp' should apply Aussie wide irrespective of what one state may get & i can guarantee people would soon bitch that isn't fair & i would say welcome to the whole of Australia not a small part.

\

[Leema]

I see this one managed to slip through without anybody noticing....

7.7 Championship Points System (05/99) (10/11)

The owner of a dog registered with the ANKC Ltd which:

(a) Wins not fewer than four Challenge Certificates/Best of Breed Certificates

under not fewer than four different Judges at four different exhibitions; and

(10/99)

(b) Gains a total of 100 points; may apply for such dog to be known as a

Champion.

NOTE that the 25 points after the age of 12 months is no longer required ;)

well I think that's a bit disappointing. I realise the smaller breeds would be mature by 12 months of age but all the others, mine included, are being judged on potenial. It would be unrealistic to wait, for any breed, to be fully mature, in my breed we would be waiting for the boys to be at least 4 :D , but I think 25 points after 12 months was reasonable. Actually it wouldn't bother me if the age was put up to 18 months but I suspect I would be in the minority

The rationale behind it was, why should a CC awarded at 6 months be more important to one which is awarded at say 11 months old.

If a dog must be 12 months old to be concidered worthy to be awarded a title, then awarding a CC which states the dog is worthy of the title Champion at 6 months old is a bit contradictory.

My view was either remove the 25 points after 12 months old or amend the age at which challenges can be awarded.

Graham

In my breed, there are lots of big dogs - that look within standard at 12 months, but by 24 months, they 'blow out' and get heavy and untypey. For these dogs, I would like them to be awarded 25 points after 12 months in order to gain their title.

I don't really mind about grand titles either way.

[stone]

Answer to showdog.

All you quotes & crap wont allow a direct reply.

No one has to agree with me. Some do, some don't.

That is what opinions are.

Although I am having difficulty understanding just wtf you are ranting about?

If your dog is a multi BIS/BIG winner it has obviously earned it's status.

That is my whole argument ffs.

[-Megz-]

How many shows was that at over the 3 years?

We only have 30-40 shows a year here is Tassie and at 6 points a show that makes 180 points a year.

Providing I won best of breed at every single show it would take until the dog is 5 1/2 years old. I don't travel to every show PLUS there is competition at some shows and obviously I'm not always going to win taking that 5 1/2 years out a lot further.

I know this is a touchy subject but maibnlanders really do have it easy. A friend of mine did one circuit and attended 20 shows over 5 weeks... that's half of what we have in a whole YEAR!

I'm a mainlander and I have the same amount of shows as you, there are many mainland places that have even less than you have.

I liked the tweaked system of dogs requiring BIG's or a BIS or the 25 point CC's. The Grand has reverted back to the cheap chase for points, it was before.

Bring on the Supreme, at least the dogs awarded with that one, will have had to beat something along the way to get there.

I feel sorry for those who worked their arses off, to achieve a Grand under the revised system, their great achievement will now be lumped back in with those who were merely good enough not to get non awarded along the way, were prepared to travel and pay for the petrol.

I see no point what so ever in even applying for the Grand Champion Title. I wish I could bring my old Pug (10 years 2 day ago) out and get one more CC so I could change her title to Supreme.

[Jumabaar]

In my breed, there are lots of big dogs - that look within standard at 12 months, but by 24 months, they 'blow out' and get heavy and untypey. For these dogs, I would like them to be awarded 25 points after 12 months in order to gain their title.

I don't really mind about grand titles either way.

This- a coated breed where the dog is still in puppy coat could get its title before you have a chance to see if it has correct coat. Or what about other breeds where mouths go wry at 10months?

I think removing the 12mth requirement will mean an even faster turn around for some people with their dogs which means that as a breeder I don't get to see how these puppies turn out at 12mths of age. Makes selecting studs even more difficult if you can't track their progeny.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I think removing the 12 month Ch requirement is a terrible idea. In many breeds you don't really know you have true quality until the dog is 2 or 3 - or even 4 or 5. The existing 12 month rule wasn't perfect, but at least it went some way to acknowledging that the dog should be halfway mature.

And yes, we had a pup this year who had to do over the extra 25 points after 12 months and it was no hardship, he snagged them easily.

Welfare wise I'm not crazy about the Gr Ch rules either. I just don't get why people think that any dog that can get a Ch should then be able to earn the title "Grand", the whole point should be that they are extra special dogs, not that they have enough mileage under their belts to satisfy a fringe benefits tax ruling.

Someone in my breed said to me recently "we don't truly compete anymore" and she is dead right. This is just two more examples of that phenomenon.

[WreckitWhippet]

I think removing the 12 month Ch requirement is a terrible idea. In many breeds you don't really know you have true quality until the dog is 2 or 3 - or even 4 or 5. The existing 12 month rule wasn't perfect, but at least it went some way to acknowledging that the dog should be halfway mature.

And yes, we had a pup this year who had to do over the extra 25 points after 12 months and it was no hardship, he snagged them easily.

Welfare wise I'm not crazy about the Gr Ch rules either. I just don't get why people think that any dog that can get a Ch should then be able to earn the title "Grand", the whole point should be that they are extra special dogs, not that they have enough mileage under their belts to satisfy a fringe benefits tax ruling.

Someone in my breed said to me recently "we don't truly compete anymore" and she is dead right. This is just two more examples of that phenomenon.

ain;t that the truth. I hear it over and again, people complaining that they have competition. They take one look at the catalogue and hope they don't show up.

I feel embarrassed when I don't have any and they hand me 6 points, thankfully my dogs are competitive beyond breed level and get class in groups most weeks and frequently classes in show.

[Rebanne]

I think removing the 12 month Ch requirement is a terrible idea. In many breeds you don't really know you have true quality until the dog is 2 or 3 - or even 4 or 5. The existing 12 month rule wasn't perfect, but at least it went some way to acknowledging that the dog should be halfway mature.

And yes, we had a pup this year who had to do over the extra 25 points after 12 months and it was no hardship, he snagged them easily.

Welfare wise I'm not crazy about the Gr Ch rules either. I just don't get why people think that any dog that can get a Ch should then be able to earn the title "Grand", the whole point should be that they are extra special dogs, not that they have enough mileage under their belts to satisfy a fringe benefits tax ruling.

Someone in my breed said to me recently "we don't truly compete anymore" and she is dead right. This is just two more examples of that phenomenon.

ain;t that the truth. I hear it over and again, people complaining that they have competition. They take one look at the catalogue and hope they don't show up.

I feel embarrassed when I don't have any and they hand me 6 points, thankfully my dogs are competitive beyond breed level and get class in groups most weeks and frequently classes in show.

some breeds don't have enough dogs to have competition and like it or not, lots of judges don't have the balls to put up the rarer breeds. Not whinging on my behalf as I know my girl was not GR Ch material. I would have loved to have more competition when she was competing but you can't pull dogs that don't exist out of thin air.

[Dellcara]

I wish I could bring my old Pug (10 years 2 day ago) out and get one more CC so I could change her title to Supreme.

I'm sure 1st July will see many retired dogs come out to get a CC to qualify for "Supreme" ...

The exact same thing happened when the "Grand" was first introduced.

[WreckitWhippet]

Bring her out Megz, I'm sure she'd be willing to go round once more to achieve it.

[conztruct]

I think removing the 12 month Ch requirement is a terrible idea. In many breeds you don't really know you have true quality until the dog is 2 or 3 - or even 4 or 5. The existing 12 month rule wasn't perfect, but at least it went some way to acknowledging that the dog should be halfway mature.

And yes, we had a pup this year who had to do over the extra 25 points after 12 months and it was no hardship, he snagged them easily.

Welfare wise I'm not crazy about the Gr Ch rules either. I just don't get why people think that any dog that can get a Ch should then be able to earn the title "Grand", the whole point should be that they are extra special dogs, not that they have enough mileage under their belts to satisfy a fringe benefits tax ruling.

Someone in my breed said to me recently "we don't truly compete anymore" and she is dead right. This is just two more examples of that phenomenon.

ain;t that the truth. I hear it over and again, people complaining that they have competition. They take one look at the catalogue and hope they don't show up.

I feel embarrassed when I don't have any and they hand me 6 points, thankfully my dogs are competitive beyond breed level and get class in groups most weeks and frequently classes in show.

Yeah I've seen this attitude a lot too which is a shame but really a reflection of the quality of some of the dogs being shown too.

I get a little bored without any breed competition and it's a little disappointing when there aren't any others of my breed there.

I guess it depends on peoples' showing goals - if winning the CH or BOB is everything to them then their attitude is the above. For me, I'm really happy with my dogs if they show great for me - when they do they usually win which is wonderful but if they don't it's the judge's decision and out of my control.

Again, as I said earlier having a title before the pedigree name or winning challenges, BOB or other awards really doesn't have a great deal of bearing of my opinion of the dog in terms of how good it is against the standard. I've seen some stunning dogs miss out and some utter rubbish awarded - that's dog showing.....

[Meea]

Answer to showdog.

All you quotes & crap wont allow a direct reply.

No one has to agree with me. Some do, some don't.

That is what opinions are.

Although I am having difficulty understanding just wtf you are ranting about?

If your dog is a multi BIS/BIG winner it has obviously earned it's status.

That is my whole argument ffs.

frankly Stone

tiresome folk like you who do not bother to understand the purpose of dog showing and continue to whine on and illustrate your complete lack of understanding of dog show rules and etiquette are the reason I personally love and use Troys ignore button *pushs ignore* ah peace

[SwaY]

I wish I could bring my old Pug (10 years 2 day ago) out and get one more CC so I could change her title to Supreme.

I'm sure 1st July will see many retired dogs come out to get a CC to qualify for "Supreme" ...

The exact same thing happened when the "Grand" was first introduced.

Yep it will happen, I know a few who are already talking about doing it.

[SwaY]

I like the new "Grand" and "Supreme Grand", not so keen on removing the 25 points after 12 months of age.

[emery]

As a few have mentioned, there is no easy fix to this issue that will please all parties.

I guess the thing for me is that even though I love showing and achieving title requirements (only CHs for me - a Grand is a distant dream at this point - LOL), these titles really don't impact on my perception of a good example of the breed.

There are many dogs in my breed and others that have CHs and Grand titles but I would never consider using them in a breeding program. Would be interested to hear what bearing the title a dog has, has on others breeding decisions? Regardless then, whilst I'm not saying there's no point in showing (because I love it), do the titles really mean anything except for a sense of personal achievement and maybe a good advertising point to create interest in a dog? I know if a dog has a Grand Ch., I'm pretty keen to have a look at it - sometimes I'm really impressed, other times I'm disappointed.

Well said. While titles appear impressive, the quality (incl. temperament) of the animal is what counts. I'm a complete novice to the show arena, which may work in my favour when it comes to perceptions about whether or no a dog is worthy of a particular title. In addition, I'm finding it a challenge to even receive lessons on showing (they are held late at night at some distance from me), let alone compete in the field (most shows seem also to be held in the evenings and at the same venue in Perth, WA). I do, however, consider my pup is very much show quality, and I feel the competitive 'vibe' from other, more experienced, exhibitors who view him. Neither his Dam or Sire currently hold titles.

For our wa shows as of december they become evening shows to about march due to heat they then go back to sat and sun shows. there are people around perth that do private trianing not at canine sorry for going ot

[stone]

Answer to showdog.

All you quotes & crap wont allow a direct reply.

No one has to agree with me. Some do, some don't.

That is what opinions are.

Although I am having difficulty understanding just wtf you are ranting about?

If your dog is a multi BIS/BIG winner it has obviously earned it's status.

That is my whole argument ffs.

frankly Stone

tiresome folk like you who do not bother to understand the purpose of dog showing and continue to whine on and illustrate your complete lack of understanding of dog show rules and etiquette are the reason I personally love and use Troys ignore button *pushs ignore* ah peace

Frankly my dear,

I don't give a damn.

[Tambaqui]

I do, however, consider my pup is very much show quality, and I feel the competitive 'vibe' from other, more experienced, exhibitors who view him. Neither his Dam or Sire currently hold titles.

I am at the moment showing two pups in 2 different breeds, and both of these pups parents are not titled, and my Min Pin pup is already at Specialty a Multi Class in Show, and at All-Breeds a Multi Class in Group winner. My Crestie is also at Specialty a Multi Class in Show and a Class in Group at All Breeds winner.

It's interesting how parents that may not have been titled, and still go on to produce pups that do very well in the ring, and in my spare time I look at profile online and look at many dogs and pedigree, and I notice some Grand Champion dogs do come from either one, or in some cases none titled dogs!

Anyway, it's a shame about the Extra 25 Points after a year old rule been removed, I too like many others like that rule, I think it's great that there is a Supreme Champion, and the Grand Champion reverted back, but I will not be one that will take my dogs everywhere in an attempt to get 1000 Points!

If my dogs earn it, then fantastic! But I'd rather see them achieve it where they do compete in their vicinity!

I also think it's interesting about some talk of rare breed and how they can't achieve such titles. At the last champ show I just did, there was only 6 Min Pins entered, yet at our last specialty, 39 was entered! A big difference between specialty and all breeds.

I have done shows 10 minutes away and my dog was the only entrance! One recently, he was awarded 6 Points Best of Breed, but at least he backed it up with a Minor Puppy in Group win!

But there is talks of making the "Champion" title harder? But it has to be achievable, however for example putting a 25 Point rule to get champion, that's like most dogs have to win a Specialty Best of Breed or Best in Show to attain it, and on one front cover of Dogs News Australia, there are very few breeds now that can obtain 25 Points! One I know of is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, if you were to show say at KCC.

But one could say in order to attain their title, the said dog could have to either achieve a Class in Group at All Breeds, or a Class in Show at Specialty (At Championship show only for both). Afterall, you would have a certificate obtained stating your dog has obtained a higher award than a Challenge Certificate. That could weed out dogs getting titles if they can't win at Group or Show level. Just a thought here.

I enjoy reading this topic, it's very thought provoking!

[morsha_68]

I didn't say ''beat other dogs''

"Placed before" is entirely different.

Dogs that haven't been placed before an other entrant don't deserve the title is my opinion, set in stone.

Edit:- one competitor with two entries doesn't count for much either. IMO

Dedication?

Dedication is turning up & competing with expectation, not certainty.

The gentle applause when a judge actually has the balls to non award regular single dog entries tells the story.

Genuine question here. IN YOUR OPINION should I then stop showing my dogs until there are more of the breed available to show against? What do you expect those of us with rarer breeds to do? As I have said earlier there are no more than 10 Fauves being exhibited Australia wide and only 30 in total in the country.

"STONE" for stone cold hard.....

[morsha_68]

I like the new "Grand" and "Supreme Grand", not so keen on removing the 25 points after 12 months of age.

I agree..

[morsha_68]

I wish I could bring my old Pug (10 years 2 day ago) out and get one more CC so I could change her title to Supreme.

I'm sure 1st July will see many retired dogs come out to get a CC to qualify for "Supreme" ...

The exact same thing happened when the "Grand" was first introduced.

Yep it will happen, I know a few who are already talking about doing it.

I am not ashamed to say that I will be doing the same for the Supreme Grand I have been thinking about getting my girl desexed ,I will be putting that on hold ...

Edited November 22, 2011 by morsha_68