Grand Champions & (new Title) Supreme Champions

[Aziah]

we've gone from Grand Champions to crapping in the ring ???

Well no, it's just OT

[kosmology]

we've gone from Grand Champions to crapping in the ring ???

[Tralee]

Hi

It seems obvious to me that if soiling the ring makes other exhibitor's dogs drop their head then it should be penalised.

Soiling between exhibitions should be banned since some people cannot or will not use morals or ethics, or they claim that it is sport.

It is not.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Tralee

[SnoPaws]

we've gone from Grand Champions to crapping in the ring ???

Sorry Dellcara I did apologise earlier

I just saw red when I was accused of using my child to toilet my dog in the ring I don't think I have ever heard something so ludicrous

I only entered the conversation when it was mentioned that changing the points system was to encourage more entries and new people to showing. Mho is that the point system has very little to do with dwindling numbers and that we have more pressing issues as highlighted above but.................... I am very lucky I have a very numerically strong breed, the average entry is 25+. A quality example of my breed should have no problem acquiring 4 25 points ccs or 4 BIGS or 1 BIS. While I can sympathise with those in rare breeds who would find it impossible to acquire any 25 point cc, surely the grand title should only be given to the best of the best and a dog (or bitch) worthy of a grand champion title should (imho only) have no problem getting 4 BIGS, regardless of whether it is a rare breed or not. I don't believe it is right to award the Grand Champion to title to a dog simply because it has been to 167 shows and never, even beaten another dog (same breed or another). All that proves is the how dedicated the owner is.

Edited December 2, 2011 by SnoPaws

[Havasneeze]

we've gone from Grand Champions to crapping in the ring ???

Sorry Dellcara I did apologise earlier

I just saw red when I was accused of using my child to toilet my dog in the ring I don't think I have ever heard something so ludicrous

I only entered the conversation when it was mentioned that changing the points system was to encourage more entries and new people to showing. Mho is that the point system has very little to do with dwindling numbers and that we have more pressing issues as highlighted above but.................... I am very lucky I have a very numerically strong breed, the average entry is 25+. A quality example of my breed should have no problem acquiring 4 25 points ccs or 4 BIGS or 1 BIS. While I can sympathise with those in rare breeds who would find it impossible to acquire any 25 point cc, surely the grand title should only be given to the best of the best and a dog (or bitch) worthy of a grand champion title should (imho only) have no problem getting 4 BIGS, regardless of whether it is a rare breed or not. I don't believe it is right to award the Grand Champion to title to a dog simply because it has been to 167 shows and never, even beaten another dog (same breed or another). All that proves is the how dedicated the owner is.

Hell Tralee lets just shove a cork up their bums and ban them popping full stop while at a show and while we're at lets ban bait because that can be rooly annoying when it is left all over the ground with food driven dogs, and those squeaky toys that terrier people love to throw around because my dogs would just love to destroy them, and then little old ladies carrying their toy dogs around because my big dogs just don't get that dogs don't have four legs and while we are at it seeing as I have four dogs and one bitch maybe we could do just dogs one day and then disenfect the ground the next day so my dogs don't put their heads down. Then can we ban newbies and kids because they are sure to do something innocently wrong which could be construed as immoral or unethical. And the wind don't start on the wind because mine go stupid in the wind, give me mud and rain anyday even with coated dogs. Maybe then we could ban the dogs and get some robots instead

And then we can't work out why numbers are dropping and instead of dealing with the real problems we tinker with a system that probably wasn't broken??

oh boy

[SnoPaws]

Yeah you're righ H

I apologise but I am so pissed off and upset that my daughter wants nothing to do with the whole dog world because of people who believe it is okay to bully kids and newbies.

So on that note I am taking my keyboard and going home.

Edited December 2, 2011 by SnoPaws

[Tralee]

Hell Tralee lets just shove a cork up their bums and ban them popping full stop while at a show and while we're at lets ban bait because that can be rooly annoying when it is left all over the ground with food driven dogs, and those squeaky toys that terrier people love to throw around because my dogs would just love to destroy them, and then little old ladies carrying their toy dogs around because my big dogs just don't get that dogs don't have four legs and while we are at it seeing as I have four dogs and one bitch maybe we could do just dogs one day and then disenfect the ground the next day so my dogs don't put their heads down. Then can we ban newbies and kids because they are sure to do something innocently wrong which could be construed as immoral or unethical. And the wind don't start on the wind because mine go stupid in the wind, give me mud and rain anyday even with coated dogs. Maybe then we could ban the dogs and get some robots instead

And then we can't work out why numbers are dropping and instead of dealing with the real problems we tinker with a system that probably wasn't broken??

oh boy

Well, how about just showing the dog on its merits. That might be a novel idea. :rolleyes:

You have to excuse my OCD, but I remember the clumsy way I started showing but then don't start me talking about how exhibitors and some Judges antagonise, intimidate or provoke a guardian breed and then decry that the dog is out of temperament.

Well, that is sport, but more exactly it is poor sport.

I am all for encouraging people to show and giving them assistance but you can't have low standards and then claim high regard.

Maybe some people take it too seriously, but I don't think it is funny when dogs are reported out of some misguided idea of competition.

And to the matter of your litany of other distractions, personally I can't say I think they present the dog on its merits.

However, my dogs have soiled and I take full responsibility for that.

For my money, I applaud dogs that are awarded over my dogs when they deserve it but never if they hedged my dogs out.

I say lets keep it real.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Tralee

[Amadora]

I own one of those dogs whom gained his Grand Championship Title under the original requirements. During my campaign in Victoria the Group that I exhibited in was largely dominated by the same one or two dogs, who were exhibited throughout the State at the time, and in my opinion they are beautiful dogs and highly deserving of their achievements. During his campaign my dog won numerous Class In Group awards across all Groups, often defeating Best Exhibit In Show winners in the Class, and won four Melbourne Royal Show Challenges in quality competition, as well as being chosen as a Finalist in the Group on numerous occasions. Can someone tell me why this dog should not have gained his Grand Championship Title?

Unfortunately during the campaign of my dog he was judged by a few that could not identify his Breed, and on occasion he was confused for a different Breed altogether. In my opinion, some of the Breeds that are numerically smaller in number, or those that are considered 'rarer' Breeds, perhaps like my own, are sometimes overlooked, most often because there is a lack of understanding, or lack of interest in the Breed Standard.

I am extremely critical of my own dogs, and have in the past placed dogs in Pet Homes that I feel are not good enough to be exhibited, and naturally, I have been criticised for simply being too 'honest'.

For me, I feel the new requirements for both the Grand Championship Title and the Supreme Champion Title give exhibitors something to aim for. For those who are not able to keep large numbers of dogs, it gives many an incentive to continue exhibiting their dogs in the ring. Agree, or disagree, surely this is a good thing for our hobby?

[Waggy]

I own one of those dogs whom gained his Grand Championship Title under the original requirements. During my campaign in Victoria the Group that I exhibited in was largely dominated by the same one or two dogs, who were exhibited throughout the State at the time, and in my opinion they are beautiful dogs and highly deserving of their achievements. During his campaign my dog won numerous Class In Group awards across all Groups, often defeating Best Exhibit In Show winners in the Class, and won four Melbourne Royal Show Challenges in quality competition, as well as being chosen as a Finalist in the Group on numerous occasions. Can someone tell me why this dog should not have gained his Grand Championship Title?

Unfortunately during the campaign of my dog he was judged by a few that could not identify his Breed, and on occasion he was confused for a different Breed altogether. In my opinion, some of the Breeds that are numerically smaller in number, or those that are considered 'rarer' Breeds, perhaps like my own, are sometimes overlooked, most often because there is a lack of understanding, or lack of interest in the Breed Standard.

I am extremely critical of my own dogs, and have in the past placed dogs in Pet Homes that I feel are not good enough to be exhibited, and naturally, I have been criticised for simply being too 'honest'.

For me, I feel the new requirements for both the Grand Championship Title and the Supreme Champion Title give exhibitors something to aim for. For those who are not able to keep large numbers of dogs, it gives many an incentive to continue exhibiting their dogs in the ring. Agree, or disagree, surely this is a good thing for our hobby?

I totally agree with your opinion - some of us cannot keep too many dogs, enjoy exhibiting our dogs at shows and want something to aim for beyond the Championship level. This change can only help the declining numbers at shows.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Toto

[SparkyTansy]

I totally agree with your opinion - some of us cannot keep too many dogs, enjoy exhibiting our dogs at shows and want something to aim for beyond the Championship level. This change can only help the declining numbers at shows.

I agree that it can help the declining numbers of dogs already in the ring, but I can't help that think that it may further discourage newcomers who cannot beat the existing dogs. And before people say that they should start with a good dog, that a good dog will beat a Grand Champ etc, even the most determined exhibitor with a nice dog might not be able to beat a grand champ. No matter what anyone says, it is difficult for a new exhibitor to lose time after time against the same dogs/people.

[Keshwar]

I agree that it can help the declining numbers of dogs already in the ring, but I can't help that think that it may further discourage newcomers who cannot beat the existing dogs. And before people say that they should start with a good dog, that a good dog will beat a Grand Champ etc, even the most determined exhibitor with a nice dog might not be able to beat a grand champ. No matter what anyone says, it is difficult for a new exhibitor to lose time after time against the same dogs/people.

I don't understand this attitude, in which other sport/hobby does someone starting out expect to beat more experienced participants?

It would be like me starting out swimming and expect to beat Thorpie, or me start to play rugby and go straight into the All Blacks starting line up.

I know when I first started showing I wasn't expecting to take out BOB at every show I was happy to get around the ring with my dog looking reasonable. But maybe that's just me and other people start something and expect to win big first out.

[Jumabaar]

I agree that it can help the declining numbers of dogs already in the ring, but I can't help that think that it may further discourage newcomers who cannot beat the existing dogs. And before people say that they should start with a good dog, that a good dog will beat a Grand Champ etc, even the most determined exhibitor with a nice dog might not be able to beat a grand champ. No matter what anyone says, it is difficult for a new exhibitor to lose time after time against the same dogs/people.

I don't understand this attitude, in which other sport/hobby does someone starting out expect to beat more experienced participants?

It would be like me starting out swimming and expect to beat Thorpie, or me start to play rugby and go straight into the All Blacks starting line up.

I know when I first started showing I wasn't expecting to take out BOB at every show I was happy to get around the ring with my dog looking reasonable. But maybe that's just me and other people start something and expect to win big first out.

But in normal sports you can improve. In showing you can't improve past a certain point (i.e. you can improve presentation but you can't improve structure). And not everyone has the opportunity to own multiple dogs or to buy in new ones. So if you never even win a class why would you continue to come back year in year out? There is no room for improvement like there is in swimming....

[SparkyTansy]

I agree that it can help the declining numbers of dogs already in the ring, but I can't help that think that it may further discourage newcomers who cannot beat the existing dogs. And before people say that they should start with a good dog, that a good dog will beat a Grand Champ etc, even the most determined exhibitor with a nice dog might not be able to beat a grand champ. No matter what anyone says, it is difficult for a new exhibitor to lose time after time against the same dogs/people.

I don't understand this attitude, in which other sport/hobby does someone starting out expect to beat more experienced participants?

It would be like me starting out swimming and expect to beat Thorpie, or me start to play rugby and go straight into the All Blacks starting line up.

I know when I first started showing I wasn't expecting to take out BOB at every show I was happy to get around the ring with my dog looking reasonable. But maybe that's just me and other people start something and expect to win big first out.

But in normal sports you can improve. In showing you can't improve past a certain point (i.e. you can improve presentation but you can't improve structure). And not everyone has the opportunity to own multiple dogs or to buy in new ones. So if you never even win a class why would you continue to come back year in year out? There is no room for improvement like there is in swimming....

If I started at swimming, I would not be expected to go up against thorpie...

New exhibitors are starting up against long time exhibitors, experienced dogs, well groomed and handled. Yes, you strive to improve, and you do... but without support, which many do not have, it is hard to know why you are not doing well, especially because there is no feedback or justification from the judge in the ring.

[Shaar]

New exhibitor or not it's the dog being judged it has nothing to do with how new you are. Can't get a good enough dog to beat the grand champion... Well that's not really the owner of the grand champions fault, they started off with that dog as a puppy just like you.

I never expected big awards when I got my first puppy, heck when he was a baby I was just thrilled to receive nice comments from other exhibitors. When I get another dog eventually I still won't be expecting it to be a world beater just because I have a little more experience now... I will expect it to beat the other dogs only if it is good enough, and even then it's up to the judge on the day.

[Keshwar]

IME most people start out with a baby puppy and work their way up through the classes.

As far as I'm aware there aren't many baby puppy grand champions.

Most people aren't going to compete against a grand or even a champion until the hit junior or intermediate, that's giving most people at least a year to improve their handling skills, their grooming skills and enough time to work out if their puppy is indeed competitive against the breed standard.

It is very rare for anyone starting out to get a top winning dog straight off the bat. But you work with what you have and try to improve your skills. Eventually you will be able to buy/lease that great grand/supreme dog. Just don't expect it to be given to you on a plate from the get go.

It seems to me that some people want to come into a new hobby and start winning big immediately. The point I was trying to make above was that it doesn't happen in other sports so why should people expect it in dog showing.

NOTE:"you" in the above is a generic you and is not aimed at any one individual.

[SparkyTansy]

New exhibitor or not it's the dog being judged it has nothing to do with how new you are. Can't get a good enough dog to beat the grand champion... Well that's not really the owner of the grand champions fault, they started off with that dog as a puppy just like you.

I never expected big awards when I got my first puppy, heck when he was a baby I was just thrilled to receive nice comments from other exhibitors. When I get another dog eventually I still won't be expecting it to be a world beater just because I have a little more experience now... I will expect it to beat the other dogs only if it is good enough, and even then it's up to the judge on the day.

My opinion is simply that - whether it keeps existing dogs in the ring or not, I still believe it will on occasion cause someone to up and leave because they cannot get past a big winning dog. Whether it's right or wrong, whether they should learn that they will lose or not, that person is lost forever to the dog world, once they are gone.

I know not everyone expects to win - some people go into it a little bit more realistic than others... I couldn't title my first dog, got another, who I believe now to be just as good, however he didn't get past minor puppy, so I changed breeds (personal reasons) and got another, titled her, did well enough, and bred my first litter to which i have two lovely puppies in the ring doing well. It has taken 9 years to get to this point, and not everyone will stick at it for that long.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Depends a bit on where you live I think. In NSW a big winning dog is almost never at all the shows others in its breed are at. Whether that is a good thing or not is a separate debate, but even where shows are more concentrated and competition is more focussed, often big winning dogs are owned by judges, who get appointments sometimes. And show committees will sometimes appoint judges who will not put up big winning dog X because of politics or style. IME if a dog never wins ever, the issue is not big winning dogs, but either the dog or the handler - usually the latter.

[Libertybrook]

ok maybe we can have 3 levels of GR CH... ;)

GR CH = 1000 Points

SUPREME GR CH = 1000 Points, plus the 4 BIG's, or 1 BIS, OR 4 25 point CC's/ BOB's

ULTRA OR OPEN GR CH = 1000 Points + the 3 BIS's, or the 10 BIG's all under different judges.....