Grand Champions & (new Title) Supreme Champions

[yarracully]

In our part of NSW within 600k radius there are only 12 shows for the year and that is between end of may and end of October. Its easy to say that a state has x number of shows but where they are located needs to be taken into consideration. NSW is larger in area than the whole of England (if my memory of high school geography is right)and for some even though there are that many shows many would be too far away. AS an example to travel from western NSW to show on the East Coast of NSW is 1400k's. As far as travellinmg from Southern NSW (Albury) to Northern NSW I can't comment because I haven't done it.

So while 550 Champ shows sounds a lot in some areas of the state there really aren't that many.

Sorry I find this post very condescending. I live in WA. WA is a LOT bigger than NSW, I was asking for the whole state as over here you do not get any country shows on the same weekend as Perth metro shows. So yes I am interested in all of NSW as you have that option ;) Actually you have the option of crossing the border a bit easier than us too :D

A lot of people on here are saying that you shouldn't be able to get a Championship title until you get a 25 point CC (which to make it fair should be a 25 point BIG so that the dog breeds with less than 20 entered who have to win BIG beating those breeds with more than 20 entered are on the same playing field ;) ). To do that at breed level I have to travel around 3,500km. So giving me a lesson on how big NSW is in comparison to England is a tad harsh! How many times does NSW fit into WA?

I think you might be a bit confused here. There are a lot saying that a dog should acquire 25 points after it turns twelve months of age. This is the old rule that will be superseded. This does not have to be a 25 challenge just 25 points must be obtained after twelve months of age. That could consist of 2 13 point cc's.

I really dont get why some are bashing on about dogs having to beat other breeds. This way of thinking makes me wonder if these people are in this sport to better their breed or are they just in it for their own sense of glory and importance.

The way I see it:

The points awarded are for dog challenge and bitch challenge and best of breed.

THe points awarded are for number of dogs within the breed.

The whole purpose of showing is about determining the best example of the breed.

The dog when it is being judged should be measured against its standard for its breed.

The purpose of the standard is to define the ideal example of the breed.

The purpose of breeding is to improve the breed.

As such any titles awarded should be based on the dogs standing within its breed. Which to my way of thinking means if the dog can beat others of its own breed then it is a reasonable example of the breed.

I don't go to a show to compare my dogs against an Alaskan Malamute or a Great Dane or even a Japanese Chin. I show to compare my dogs against others of their breed.

As for the number of shows in WA had you thought that if more clubs existed then maybe you would have more shows.

May I ask then where are the majority of the shows that you do have. No doubt located around Perth. Much as most of the shows in NSW are located around Sydney.

As for travelling 3500 k's for a specialty you are of course aware that a flight from perth to Sydney for such a specialty would only cost you less than a quarter of what it would cost me to get to Sydney. And I live in NSW. Not that it would do any good as none of the airlines that service our area will carry dogs.

As for being a tad harsh, I'm sorry you feel that the truth is harsh. But it is what it is.

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

I had a lot to say when the Gr Ch rules were first changed, including a letter published in DNA.

I can't really be too bothered now, except to reflect on the fact I have a dog with the strange ratio of 18 RUBIGs to 4 BIGs (latter includes a BIS).

CC

[kosmology]

In our part of NSW within 600k radius there are only 12 shows for the year and that is between end of may and end of October. Its easy to say that a state has x number of shows but where they are located needs to be taken into consideration. NSW is larger in area than the whole of England (if my memory of high school geography is right)and for some even though there are that many shows many would be too far away. AS an example to travel from western NSW to show on the East Coast of NSW is 1400k's. As far as travellinmg from Southern NSW (Albury) to Northern NSW I can't comment because I haven't done it.

So while 550 Champ shows sounds a lot in some areas of the state there really aren't that many.

Sorry I find this post very condescending. I live in WA. WA is a LOT bigger than NSW, I was asking for the whole state as over here you do not get any country shows on the same weekend as Perth metro shows. So yes I am interested in all of NSW as you have that option ;) Actually you have the option of crossing the border a bit easier than us too :D

A lot of people on here are saying that you shouldn't be able to get a Championship title until you get a 25 point CC (which to make it fair should be a 25 point BIG so that the dog breeds with less than 20 entered who have to win BIG beating those breeds with more than 20 entered are on the same playing field ;) ). To do that at breed level I have to travel around 3,500km. So giving me a lesson on how big NSW is in comparison to England is a tad harsh! How many times does NSW fit into WA?

I think you might be a bit confused here. There are a lot saying that a dog should acquire 25 points after it turns twelve months of age. This is the old rule that will be superseded. This does not have to be a 25 challenge just 25 points must be obtained after twelve months of age. That could consist of 2 13 point cc's.

I really dont get why some are bashing on about dogs having to beat other breeds. This way of thinking makes me wonder if these people are in this sport to better their breed or are they just in it for their own sense of glory and importance.

The way I see it:

The points awarded are for dog challenge and bitch challenge and best of breed.

THe points awarded are for number of dogs within the breed.

The whole purpose of showing is about determining the best example of the breed.

The dog when it is being judged should be measured against its standard for its breed.

The purpose of the standard is to define the ideal example of the breed.

The purpose of breeding is to improve the breed.

As such any titles awarded should be based on the dogs standing within its breed. Which to my way of thinking means if the dog can beat others of its own breed then it is a reasonable example of the breed.

I don't go to a show to compare my dogs against an Alaskan Malamute or a Great Dane or even a Japanese Chin. I show to compare my dogs against others of their breed.

As for the number of shows in WA had you thought that if more clubs existed then maybe you would have more shows.

May I ask then where are the majority of the shows that you do have. No doubt located around Perth. Much as most of the shows in NSW are located around Sydney.

As for travelling 3500 k's for a specialty you are of course aware that a flight from perth to Sydney for such a specialty would only cost you less than a quarter of what it would cost me to get to Sydney. And I live in NSW. Not that it would do any good as none of the airlines that service our area will carry dogs.

As for being a tad harsh, I'm sorry you feel that the truth is harsh. But it is what it is.

I think the 'competition' in regards to the context of this thread should remain within the domain of bettering dog breeds, and not herald as a rivalry between States!!!

And besides, there are SO MANY parameters involved when comparing statistics State to State in the dog showing arena that it isn't really worth the comparison. Population demographics being the main one, probably.

I know, everyone thinks they live in the best State in Australia, me included :D

[mirawee]

Yarracully, if you read the thread it has been said that it should be made harder to get a champ title with the suggestion made that a 25 point CC be required. 25 points after 12 months was a completely different scenario ;)

Also there is a limit to how many dogs you can take on a plane...

[SparkyTansy]

The way I see it:

The points awarded are for dog challenge and bitch challenge and best of breed.

THe points awarded are for number of dogs within the breed.

The whole purpose of showing is about determining the best example of the breed.

The dog when it is being judged should be measured against its standard for its breed.

The purpose of the standard is to define the ideal example of the breed.

The purpose of breeding is to improve the breed.

As such any titles awarded should be based on the dogs standing within its breed. Which to my way of thinking means if the dog can beat others of its own breed then it is a reasonable example of the breed.

I don't go to a show to compare my dogs against an Alaskan Malamute or a Great Dane or even a Japanese Chin. I show to compare my dogs against others of their breed.

I, personally,show to compete against others in the breed, but I breed to improve the breed and get the closest example of the breed to the standard. If there is only one dog in the breed at a dog show, it is still being judged against the standard... and therefore it is down to the judge to judge it correctly against their interpretation of the standard, not up to the individual to prove their dog against other dogs of the same breed, if there are none to compete against because of geographical location, time or money constraints.

As for the number of shows in WA had you thought that if more clubs existed then maybe you would have more shows.

May I ask then where are the majority of the shows that you do have. No doubt located around Perth. Much as most of the shows in NSW are located around Sydney.

As for travelling 3500 k's for a specialty you are of course aware that a flight from perth to Sydney for such a specialty would only cost you less than a quarter of what it would cost me to get to Sydney. And I live in NSW. Not that it would do any good as none of the airlines that service our area will carry dogs.

as showdog said, around 14 of the 50 champ shows are country. The rest are in one location in Perth, except for the royal.

I'm not disputing your costs, just curious, what are your expenses getting your dogs to Sydney from your location that makes it so expensive? it's probably a bit over $1000 to take just two adult dogs and myself to Sydney return not including accommodation and other costs.

[Dogsfevr]

I'm not disputing your costs, just curious, what are your expenses getting your dogs to Sydney from your location that makes it so expensive? it's probably a bit over $1000 to take just two adult dogs and myself to Sydney return not including accommodation and other costs.

My recent trip cost $1000 for the dogs & the only reason it was that cheap is i left 1 big dog behind & brought a small one with me .(it would have Been $1200)

This year i have spent nearly $2000 on just excess for the dogs of course that is limited to 3 dogs on Qantas,2 Virgin .

1 dog doesn't fit into the largest Vari/Sky crate accepted by the airlines so add crate hire as well which has cost me this year $300.( could use my giant vari but tha is only allowed on 1 airline & through special movements section only & no guarantees so i have to hire a crate suitable

So all up im over the $2000 mark to fly dogs this year .

You can then add the extra luggage allowance you buy to get your gear over as well.Luckily with Qantas you can pay $20 per 23 KG piece online of which i brought 2 off to have the dogs gear as well .

Cheap nope & that doesn't include car hire,airfares etc etc

Edited November 28, 2011 by showdog

[mirawee]

I think we are budgetting around $4000 to get to Vic next year with 2 dogs (and 2 people) - then the other 4 people and 6 dogs going from WA can pay for themselves Will be worth it to have so many of our breed at one show though

Editted as I just did my maths better...

Edited November 29, 2011 by mirawee

[Bug]

It may be simple but Grand Champion would have been worth much more if it was only awarded to dogs that had won 3 BIS at All Breeds Shows under 3 different judges and not worried about points. Don't say that this disadvantages 'rare' breeds as I have seen a beautiful Sussex Spaniel win BIS on more than one occasion and he is just one of a handful shown in the whole country. It shouldn't be about adding multiple titles to a dog but about recognising those dogs which really are high achievers and able to successfully compete against the best of the best. It is, and always has been, ridiculous that a dog could be come a champion without beating another dog. At one time absentees counted towards points and owners entered every dog in their backyard and left them home to pad a challenge out to maximum points - probably cheaper to pay extra entries than petrol to extra shows:) This was changed so that absentees did not count and it simply meant that dogs were taken to more shows to obtain the same result -a title.

I agree that the part of the problem is with the judges who award ccs to inferior animals simply because they turned up on the day. However many dogs who get 6 point ccs are well worthy of the title of champion but it is ludicrous that they can do that without competing against or beating another dog of their own breed or any other.

It may have encouraged the breeding of better dogs if the ANKC had looked at ways of encouraging competition within the breeds rather than adding yet more titles. Too many shows in some areas, too many ccs on offer, too many champions?

[Tralee]

Hi

As the owner of a breed that typically does not get put up for Best in Show I still support the Supreme criteria.

In fact, I am quietly opposed to the old regime for Grand.

Just because someone swamps the competition, and travels the country for points, does not give the dog the merit Champion.

I think a total restructuring would more truly represent our dogs.

For example, Breed Champion, Group Champion and Show Champion.

Anyway, this is for anyone who ever thought that Maremmas could not be Supreme.

Px

Edited November 28, 2011 by Tralee

[OSoSwift]

There are four shows within 600kms of me that have so far attracted 210 and 254 dogs.....................

If I had the time which I don't, I sure wouldn't have the money for a petrol champion not to mention a dog of the same breed as mine goes to pretty much every show and interstate and does heaps of winning and has lots of BIS so trying to drive around to gain a title wouldn't work anyway.

I did like the idea of 25 points after 12 months of age.

[Blakbelgian]

Just a question for those that nearly qualify for either Grand or Supreme.

If this year you have been trying to gain points for the Gr Ch title and now with these new qualifications are you thinking of going straight to Gr Ch Suprememe and skipping the Gr Ch title?

Can you go from Aust Ch straight to Gr Ch Suprememe if you have the qualifications?

BB

[GRD]

Just a question for those that nearly qualify for either Grand or Supreme.

If this year you have been trying to gain points for the Gr Ch title and now with these new qualifications are you thinking of going straight to Gr Ch Suprememe and skipping the Gr Ch title?

Can you go from Aust Ch straight to Gr Ch Suprememe if you have the qualifications?

BB

YES

There is no regulated procession to Supreme Champion ie you do not have to have either the Championship of Grand Championship title before applying for the Supreme.

That was a crazy thing about the old regulations. Even though you needed 25 points after 12 months old to apply for the champion title, if your dog had amassed 1000 points (and latter on the BIS/BIG etc) you could apply for the Grand Champion title regardless of the dogs age.

Graham

[yarracully]

The way I see it:

The points awarded are for dog challenge and bitch challenge and best of breed.

THe points awarded are for number of dogs within the breed.

The whole purpose of showing is about determining the best example of the breed.

The dog when it is being judged should be measured against its standard for its breed.

The purpose of the standard is to define the ideal example of the breed.

The purpose of breeding is to improve the breed.

As such any titles awarded should be based on the dogs standing within its breed. Which to my way of thinking means if the dog can beat others of its own breed then it is a reasonable example of the breed.

I don't go to a show to compare my dogs against an Alaskan Malamute or a Great Dane or even a Japanese Chin. I show to compare my dogs against others of their breed.

I, personally,show to compete against others in the breed, but I breed to improve the breed and get the closest example of the breed to the standard. If there is only one dog in the breed at a dog show, it is still being judged against the standard... and therefore it is down to the judge to judge it correctly against their interpretation of the standard, not up to the individual to prove their dog against other dogs of the same breed, if there are none to compete against because of geographical location, time or money constraints.

As for the number of shows in WA had you thought that if more clubs existed then maybe you would have more shows.

May I ask then where are the majority of the shows that you do have. No doubt located around Perth. Much as most of the shows in NSW are located around Sydney.

As for travelling 3500 k's for a specialty you are of course aware that a flight from perth to Sydney for such a specialty would only cost you less than a quarter of what it would cost me to get to Sydney. And I live in NSW. Not that it would do any good as none of the airlines that service our area will carry dogs.

as showdog said, around 14 of the 50 champ shows are country. The rest are in one location in Perth, except for the royal.

I'm not disputing your costs, just curious, what are your expenses getting your dogs to Sydney from your location that makes it so expensive? it's probably a bit over $1000 to take just two adult dogs and myself to Sydney return not including accommodation and other costs.

Not sure if you are addressing this to me but for me to get to Sydney one way flight $500.00 However airline that services here does not fly dogs. As such to go to Sydney takes nearly two days driving each way. As such I am not able to fly over Friday Night and Back Sunday Night.

As such the cost is four days of work (and loss of income accordingly) then the other costs of fuel and accomodation. As for the number of shows in different states this is directly related to the population spread across Australia. I am curious what some expect those on the east of Aust to do for those on the West.

I also am amazed at how a few want the title made harder then complain about the number of shows. I can see that if you make the titles too hard to obtain you will see a greater loss of exhibitors and as such even fewer shows.

I would be interested to see what the percentage of Americans are that show compared to total population. I think you will find that Australia has a greater percentage.

Apparently there are some that can't see that the rules have been changed to try and keep the hobby alive. Or should we make things harder then whinge when there are not enough people left to hold a show. I am just someone that supports shows by entering so that someone else can have the glory of winning. I would be better of not entering. But if enough of us did that then the winner won't have a show to win.

Personally I applaud the ANKC for making changes in order to try and keep dog showing alive. But then I happen to have a breed that rarely gets a best in group and has never gotten BIS and I am not a judge so obviously my views are not valid.

Frankly I really don't care anymore. I'll just keep doing what I have been and then when all the shows continue to disappear and exhibitor numbers continue to drop, I'll read the posts about the hobby dying and will be able to sit back and say "It had to happen".

Edited November 29, 2011 by yarracully

[mirawee]

Why does it have to happen? Why do exhibitor numbers have to continue to drop?

In my breed I have encouraged 2 new people to give showing a go this year, they wouldn't even know how the point system works when they start out!

[yarracully]

Why does it have to happen? Why do exhibitor numbers have to continue to drop?

In my breed I have encouraged 2 new people to give showing a go this year, they wouldn't even know how the point system works when they start out!

Same as they have been for years now. And unless changes of some type occur it will continue.

I know of quite a few exhibitors when, the grand title requirements changed, that once they titled their dog at Aust Ch level they stopped showing. I know of quite a few that stopped showing even before they titled their dog. I myself have even stopped entering a few of mine as I know that not one of our breed would reach the requirements so why bother entering them and one of them was awarded best bitch and RUBISS (but they don't count anyway).

I am in favour of the 25 points having to be obtained after 12 months but if a 25 challenge is required that is not likely to happen so again why bother trying. Within 800k's of my location there are only two other breeders of our breed. Now if we all showed up at the same show even then a 25 point challenge isn't available unless its a BIG ( and in our breed since recognition the number of these Aust wide are still only single digits).

Reality is as ANKC figures show membership is dropping. Numbers at shows are dropping. Shows themselves are dropping. Putting a 25 point challenge as a requirement for a ch title will add to this. At least the ANKC have looked at this and are trying to stop the slide. This change may stop it, it may not but at least they are trying now rather than wait until its too late. I would be very surprised if they just made the changes without some form of rationale behind it.

However I also am not in favour of a dog being able to get any title without beating another of its own breed which at both Aust Ch and Grand Ch can happen. But reality is in some breeds (varies in different parts of Aust) a 25 point challenge is impossible. Especially when you look at areas away from major population centres

I can think of better things to do with my limited income than waste it chasing something that I know I won't achieve. I also know that if people stop showing for whatever reason they inevitably move onto other things and they do not return. As such the slide continues.

However I am now beginning to see why many people simply breed and don't bother showing

[SnoPaws]

I have been showing for about four years and really don't have a view on the new (or the old) points system but I do have a view on why I believe numbers are and have been dropping.

I have four show dogs and am currently campaigning another.

My first dog has won two best in shows and and five best in groups, he is on about 400 points but is now semi retired because I find my younger dogs more exciting to show.

My young bitch has won a best in group and a runner up best in group at Sunbury, she holds multiple 25 point challenges, it took me until she was two and half to get her titled and a further six weeks to get another 200 points, she is a late maturer but I will be aiming for her grand regardless of the rules.

My 18 months old will hit the ring again after a six month break, he is a best in group winner, he is not titled, he sits on 75 points made up with three 25 point challenge.

My young dog has just turned one and has one 16 point challenge.

I don't show just to win although that is of course the icing on the cake, I show because I enjoy it, I love my dogs and have the company of some great friends and have made quite a few more. I have had some great wins but win or lose I bring home four dogs I wouldn't swap for all the gold in china. I am not a breeder and won't be for some time. I am going to Kimore this weekend with a friend, we have both had horrible weeks and we are looking forward to the junky greasy 'show food' more than showing the dogs!!

Okay so scenario 1, am I in the best in show line up with a young dog, now I have Samoyeds that sparkle, they woo woo, they bark, they dance around the ring. The judge has just started judging and while we are relaxing my young dog woo woos at me. The lady beside me who is well known and whose dogs has dozens of best in show awards hisses under her breath 'if you don't shut that #$%^&* dog I will shut it up for you'.

Scenario 2, my oh and I along with my youngest daughter go away to a show for the weekend, my youngest daughter is painfully shy and finds being in the ring nerve racking at the best of times even though she enjoys it. We are the second group on both days, day one comes and goes and early on the morning of day 2 my daughter decides she would like to show a dog so I tell her to go and have a quick practice in the ring before hand, this is an hour before the show starts. The moment my back is turned she is told in a not very nice by an old 'lady' to get out of her ring.

These are only two examples from the last two weeks, I could quote dozens more but anymore would be just rambling which I have already done enough of........... but as a newbie I truly believe the declining numbers have nothing to do with titles and how they obtained but rather the attitudes of certain people. Unfortuanately I have a thick skin and will continue to do what I enjoy. I have two to title and a further two who are working towards their grands regardless of the rules.

[Dogsfevr]

Snopaws i have no issues with the occasional dog that barks but i will be honest if im stuck behind or infront of a dog that constantly goes off i will also tell the owner to keep the dog quiet.For me this isn't good ring etiquette ,dogs can sparkle without noise .

[Longclaw]

SnowPaws, those are really unfortunate experiences and yes, as a newbie, they would probably have discouraged me too. However, my first experience at showing was a really positive one.

Firstly, I was taken under the wings of some really lovely, experienced show people (DOLers), who went out of their way to make sure we knew where to be and when, gave us lots of pointers and advice, shared their wisdom and their gazebo and were just downright exceptionally good company and support.

Secondly, the judges were SO VERY kind and gentle, both with my puppy and with me They also took the time to give us advice and encouragement.

Thirdly, all the other exhibitors were friendly and polite. Even when we were in the ring for baby in show, and we were a bit lost, another exibitor took the time to explain to me what I should be doing, what would happen next and where I should be going. How nice was that? She could definitely have gone down the crabby, what-the-hell-are-you-even-doing-in-the-ring-you-know-nothing-newbie route, but she didn't, and I really, really appreciated that.

Finally, I have an awesome breeder who was so excited for us and has been really encouraging.

If we had gone without any support, and had bad judges or encountered unnecessarily nasty people, I think I would have laughed off showing as a crazy thing to subject ourselves to, and would not have bothered to enter again. Maybe I was just lucky, but I saw absolutely no evidence of poor behaviour, and I am really looking forward to our second show this weekend

Edited November 30, 2011 by Longclaw

[SnoPaws]

Snopaws i have no issues with the occasional dog that barks but i will be honest if im stuck behind or infront of a dog that constantly goes off i will also tell the owner to keep the dog quiet.For me this isn't good ring etiquette ,dogs can sparkle without noise .

And a seasoned exhibitor telling a newbie that she is going to throttle her &*(@#$ dog is

As I said he wasn't going off, he woowooed (not barked) once, not twice, not ten times, once when the judge began to judge the toy dog.

He is a junior who had been out of ring for six months.

I show Samoyeds, they are naturally a stubborn, independent, noisy breed who thinks for themselves, they have to be to do the job they were originally bred for. For that reason alone I always leave plenty of room in front of me so my occassionally boisterous dogs (yep dogs, not robots, dogs) don't have a chance to upset the person or dog in front of us. I can't be responsible for any group seven exhibitor or dog who chooses to stack to close to us.

I would have no problem if someone turned around and said look you're really upsetting my dog could you please move away, try up quiten him down etc, etc but her exact words were 'if you do not shut that #$%^^&* dog up I will shut it up for you. Etiquette indeed

*sigh* I suppose you have missed the point though, this is just one of one hundred examples I could have chosen to highlight. I could have chosen to highlight the fistfight that happened beside my car between two exhibitors instead

But that is just my humble opinion about declining numbers ;)

Edited to add

I am very happy your first experience in the ring was fantastic LC and please don't get me wrong, I too have the best mentor / breeder ever and have made lifelong friends, friends who are just not show friends but I now call true friends. I truly do love showing, I love my dogs and I love spending my weekends with my close friends.

Just the behaviour of some (not all!!) just some 'showies' leaves a hell of alot to be desired.

But yet again that is just my humble opinion as to why numbers could be dropping.

Edited November 30, 2011 by SnoPaws

[Gayle.]

To be honest, I've never had a judge that's given me advice and/or encouragement. They usually just ask "how old?" then give instructions as to where they want you to run.

Most of them are very respectful of the dogs, a few aren't but none of them do much talking.